Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[misterID]

^^

Wow, great post. Memories usually are casulties to progress, like your favorite small town dive that you've visited since you were a kid gets demolished for a Starbucks. And I understand the need to change regarding theme parks. It's just a completely different thing when that change produces something completely substandard to what was there before and what your memory was tied to, like World Of Motion to Test Track... But take Imagination for example. That was a huge step backwards, imo. The ride was shortened, cheapened and pretty much ruined, not just the experience of the ride itself but the memories too. I mean, isn't the mark (or even the aim) of a great ride is to produce great memories for young and old?

... But the ride system for Imagination is better. So I guess progressed worked there. Its just a shame everything around it blows.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
Wonder what direction Shanghai will take ... I'm hoping for something different ... and I can't imagine the HK SAR will want them copying the DL look so ... maybe they'll go back to your concept or try something never done?


I love the look of HKDL's Main Street, but I think such a large part of it is the amazing natural setting ... seeing that familiar 'little' castle at the end of the Street between lush green mountains with trees everywhere ... I guess it takes your mind off the fact that there isn't much depth to it. Certainly, nothing like what you did in Paris ... or even the original in Anaheim.

And when I speak of depth, I am talking both literally and figuratively as the shops actually don't go back far ... the Emporium is much smaller than its Anaheim counterpart for instance.

I had heard (strictly online rumor way before Disney announced Bob Weis was getting Shanghai) that Disney was going to go with a more 'cartoon-like' take on Main Street and Frontierland there ... not sure what that means. Also, the strong rumor is the castle will be a new design based on Rapunzel (much like the art in the current issue of D23). That would be nice to have something different ...

Now THAT's fantastic news! It's a pet peeve of mine that there are Two of the same castles for WDW and DLR. Takes away the uniqueness. That's one thing I really love about Paris...That castle is original, unique, and blows some other ones out of the water.:lookaroun:lol:

 

[Huck]

It's funny, I'm less emotional about it all after working there for so long. I'd go through burnout. I have sold and rebought my collection of Disney junk several times in my life.

In the park the "designer curse" hits me, (similar to AP-itus) where all you can do mentally is critique everything or only see things for what they should be, could be, or once were. Awful. You eye is drawn to visual intrusions, not what you are supposed to look at. It's somewhat easier now as I'm a paying guest with no freebies. That makes me more value conscious, now I look at price tags. Sometimes I can't shut the "insider commentary" (like on a DVD) off in my mind and it drowns out what I'm experiencing on a ride. The best medicine is to take a kid with you and see it through their eyes. Then you can like it all over agin.

Exactly! See my earlier post about Test Track. Hated it before I had kids. Now they love it and I love that they love it, so I love it with them!

 

[Huck]

^^

Wow, great post. Memories usually are casulties to progress, like your favorite small town dive that you've visited since you were a kid gets demolished for a Starbucks. And I understand the need to change regarding theme parks. It's just a completely different thing when that change produces something completely substandard to what was there before and what your memory was tied to, like World Of Motion to Test Track... But take Imagination for example. That was a huge step backwards, imo. The ride was shortened, cheapened and pretty much ruined, not just the experience of the ride itself but the memories too. I mean, isn't the mark (or even the aim) of a great ride is to produce great memories for young and old?

... But the ride system for Imagination is better. So I guess progressed worked there. Its just a shame everything around it blows.

I guess this sort of alludes to what I was saying a post earlier. My first experiences with Test Track left me uninspired and longing for the WOM which I should say I have only been on once when I was fifteen. Still, that one ride left me with an indelible impression that made me wax nostalgic. Fast Forward Ten, or so, years to my first ride on Test Track with my kids(then 5 and 4) and I was thrilled by their amazement and enjoyment. They were immersed in the illusion in a way that I had never been able to achieve. It was thrilling for them and for me! So now I still have my fond memories of World of Motion and the way that made me dream as a teenager, but I've gathered new memories and new optimism courtesy of my own kids where I thought I wouldn't find it. Not to beat a dead horse, but it's not just the attraction/ride/movie/show/garbage can/flower bed or whatever it is that you are getting your enjoyment from that creates the memory or impression of the experience for you. It's not that passive. It's also what you bring into the experience that shapes the mood of it. I saw Test Track in two different lights and it's changed the way I look at most everything now.
This all goes back to the nostalgia discussion 600 posts ago. (I just made the number up, don't go looking) True, some of the things that have replaced our favorite attractions have not entirely met the standard that had been previously set, but how much of what we believe about these newer attractions is colored by us clinging to a nostalgic viewpoint that isn't necessarily relevant to anyone outside our demographic?
I know my parents didn't like the music I listened to as a kid. My grandparents didn't like my parents music. I'm fearful that I'm not going to like my own kids' music (although I'm fighting the stereotype!) But what's relevant to them isn't always relevant to me and vice versa. So I can only try to help them understand what I see and feel and seek to understand what motivates them.
Celebrate the past, embrace the future, but relish the present!

 

[misterID]

You know, I think we're talking about 2 different things. I'm not talking so much about nostalgia, even though that probably does plays a role... I'm talking about the Wow factor; an attraction that made you say wow. Those memories. Like seeing Mount Rushmore compared to visiting an arcade. Disney did have that kind of Mount Rushmore effect, once.

I can easily understand a kid digging Test Track, even if it's just for the few seconds of thrill racing around the track. And I can even understand if they prefer those few seconds of thrill to the entire ten plus minutes of World Of Motion. But through those kids eyes The Jonas Brothers have more signifigance than The Beatles. A lot people can't relate to that. And that means cutting out a whole lot of people who aren't just riding an attraction for the sake of a memory, but for the experience. And the appeal for those "kids" was a loss for everyone who enjoyed that all inclusive (and elusive) "family" experience.

It comes down to memories of novelty over something truly memorable. My biggest gripe is if World Of Motion had to change for those few seconds of thrill to appeal to the kids... Why not combine the two, instead of sacrificing one for the other?

 

[Huck]

You know, I think we're talking about 2 different things. I'm not talking so much about nostalgia, even though that probably does plays a role... I'm talking about the Wow factor; an attraction that made you say wow. Those memories. Like seeing Mount Rushmore compared to visiting an arcade. Disney did have that kind of Mount Rushmore effect, once.

I can easily understand a kid digging Test Track, even if it's just for the few seconds of thrill racing around the track. And I can even understand if they prefer those few seconds of thrill to the entire ten plus minutes of World Of Motion. But through those kids eyes The Jonas Brothers have more signifigance than The Beatles. A lot people can't relate to that. And that means cutting out a whole lot of people who aren't just riding an attraction for the sake of a memory, but for the experience. And the appeal for those "kids" was a loss for everyone who enjoyed that all inclusive (and elusive) "family" experience.

It comes down to memories of novelty over something truly memorable. My biggest gripe is if World Of Motion had to change for those few seconds of thrill to appeal to the kids... Why not combine the two, instead of sacrificing one for the other?

We sort of are talking about 2 different things, but are talking about the same thing also. I get that we have lost a little wow factor on some of our replacement attractions, but I believe that the wow factor is still there. I think that in some cases, emphasis on some cases, it's not that there is any less magic there, but only that our expectations of what we will experience are not met. In those cases the wow factor is not there for the observer because of previous experience. So, in a sense, we are talking about nuances of the same idea.
For what it's worth, I would vastly appreciate an updated WOM with additions over Test Track. I think that idea is great, but until I get that I will not let its absence get in the way of my enjoying TT.
I suppose, in a way, Disney has reached a unique point in its maturity as a maker of themed experiences in that it has created a generational gap not necessarily between people of different ages but between people of different levels of exposure to their brand of magic. An "experience gap" I guess. The result is that at 37 years old, I can walk into Epcot and know what to expect. In order to be wowed they have to show me something I've never seen before. Another 37 year old male who's never been to a Disney Park might walk in and be blown away by what they see on, say, Test Track. When they resurrect WOM 15 years from now, I'm going to be thrilled but the other guy will mourn the loss of his beloved Test Track.
Either way, I completely understand why you or anyone else wouldn't be blown away by TT. As I said, I've been there myself. I still wait for that next "Oh, wow!" moment myself, but I think that in the community on this forum those moments will be fewer and further apart because of our experiences.

 

[Huck]

Eddie, if you are still around... ?
Appropos to my current conversation with MisterId...
Do you/did you ever consciously add elements of design to a project that were specifically tailored for avid Disneyphiles versus first time visitors? I'm certain that at Disneyland, given the larger percentage of repeat visitors and AP holders, this concept must enter the discussion pretty early in the process.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, if you are still around... ?
Appropos to my current conversation with MisterId...
Do you/did you ever consciously add elements of design to a project that were specifically tailored for avid Disneyphiles versus first time visitors? I'm certain that at Disneyland, given the larger percentage of repeat visitors and AP holders, this concept must enter the discussion pretty early in the process.

Yes. We did this on MSUSA, as I hoped all of that extra stuff that does not even cost any more to do in most cases, could breed new generation of fans like myself. That level of trivia detail ( i.e- "1401 Flower St" is both the address of Walt's Restaurant and WDI) would only add depth and make it more magic and sticky. Ryman once said that it is just as expensive to do something meaningful and historically based as to make up something meaningless and to put that in. "Bad taste costs no more" he'd say. So why not make an address or a name on a window have some depth? I'm more motivated by that "extra mile" ethic (being a fan myself), than trying to patronize or "target" the fans. The JC dock at DL reflects the original one from 1955, but adds to the legend. A softer touch.

It is cool that the "Mighty Microscope" from ATIS is in Star Tours, the Sea Serpent from the old Sub ride is part of the Nemo show, and that they hid some CBJ characters in Pooh at DL. It shows that there is a reverence to the past. As long as it does not mess up the show or distract, those "Easter Eggs" are fine by me.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Yes. We did this on MSUSA, as I hoped all of that extra stuff that does not even cost any more to do in most cases, could breed new generation of fans like myself. That level of trivia detail ( i.e- "1401 Flower St" is both the address of Walt's Restaurant and WDI) would only add depth and make it more magic and sticky. Ryman once said that it is just as expensive to do something meaningful and historically based as to make up something meaningless and to put that in. "Bad taste costs no more" he'd say. So why not make an address or a name on a window have some depth? I'm more motivated by that "extra mile" ethic (being a fan myself), than trying to patronize or "target" the fans. The JC dock at DL reflects the original one from 1955, but adds to the legend. A softer touch.

It is cool that the "Mighty Microscope" from ATIS is in Star Tours and that they hid some CBJ characters in Pooh at DL. It shows that there is a reverence to the past. As long as it does not mess up the show or distract, those "Easter Eggs" are fine by me.

Never knew that! Very cool....I wish EPCOT would get some easter eggs...Especially in SSE.:lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The other, more telling thing is that our kids think the rides I still love are boring, like Pirates. They actually look at the line and decide if the ride is worth the wait. This killed Legoland as the lines are huge and the payoff small. The thing we have to try and keep in mind is that attention spans are typically shorter now and "age compression" exists where kids are getting more sophisticated sooner. What we liked and were "wowed" by, they may grow out of quicker. AA figures are no big deal to my kids. Toys and most objects kids touch react to them and are less passive. Less imagination required and more of it is done for you. LEGO did not tell you what to make, that was your job. I learned to do character voices by having to make my toys "talk". There was no button in the right paw. Kids want to have that stimulus/response aspect to their lives, so they are texting and everything else. What has happened to the "experience" in daily life is more scary to me than losing my favorite ride. So we have to balance that with hiking and other more grounded stuff that they will like just as much.

When the kids were small, we only showed them older content and nothing that was smash cut or edited quickly. We raised them on lots of black and white stuff like, Lucy, Chaplin, Keaton, Lloyd and other silents hoping to make it taste good to them. The Disney stuff was features. I know it helped, but now they have grown into the more mainstream stuff. At least they will still watch black and white movies with us or watch the sunset.

 

[jt04]

The other, more telling thing is that my kids think the rides I still love are boring, like Pirates. They actually look at the line and decide if the ride is worth the wait. This killed Legoland as the lines are huge and the payoff small. The thing we have to try and keep in mind is that attention spans are typically shorter now and "age compression" exists where kids are getting more sophisticated sooner. What we liked and were "wowed" by, they may grow out of quicker. AA figures are no big deal to my kids. Toys and most objects kids touch react to them and are less passive. less imagination required and more of it is done for you. I learned to do character voices by having to make my toys "talk". There was no button in the right paw. Kids want to have that stimulus/response aspect to their lives, so they are texting and everything else. What has happened to the "experience" in daily life is more scary to me than losing my favorite ride. So we have to balance that with hiking and other more grounded stuff that they will like just as much.

When my kids were small, we only showed them older content and nothing that was smash cut or edited quickly. We raised them on lots of black and white stuff like, Lucy, Chaplin, Keaton, Lloyd and other silents hoping to make it taste good to them. The Disney stuff was features. I know it helped, but now they have grown into the more mainstream stuff. At least they will still watch black and white movies with us or watch the sunset.

Nice and well said. Very well said.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm not talking so much about nostalgia, even though that probably does plays a role... I'm talking about the Wow factor; an attraction that made you say wow. Those memories. Like seeing Mount Rushmore compared to visiting an arcade. Disney did have that kind of Mount Rushmore effect, once.

Yes. I agree that POTC in 1967 was a complete breakthrough in entertainment. Nothing like it anywhere on Earth. You could not explain what you had just seen. I was 9 when I first saw that show and my grandfather had to go twice as they were so blown away. So that attraction crossed over to my Grandparents. I saw it through his eyes! It was a marvel. Then those AA shows became a "format" and were repeated in different flavors till the wonder or the quality of execution faded. One of the early rules I was taught years ago was that you could not get anyone to watch an AA sing a whole song as they could not sustain the audience, so you did a few verses and you're on to the next Bear or whatever. I guess Lincoln is different, as it is content driven, or you just have to get up and leave in front of everyone!

Creating new ride systems to enhance a story was always a personal goal at WDI. That "wow" that makes something exclusively Disney. I think we got there with TDL Pooh and I hope they continue to use that system and plus it into something amazing.

One of the tough things about today is that you really can't deliver the kind of thrills and imagery in the Rides as well as what they saw at the movies. So you try to create the environment and not try and outdo the big moments in the movie. Add building codes and a few lawyers and you're really in handcuffs. Those 1967 "breakthroughs" are harder and more expensive to come by and expectations are huge as the audience expects that you can simulate anything.

So the question is, can those breakthroughs still be achieved? (The expectations of my grandfather back then were pretty low). I think so and hopefully new technologies will allow us to deliver thrills and story in new ways. I would love to see and ride the Kuka things I read about. I hope we don't lean on 3D and media to the point where we are just having the same movie experience, but with a lap bar. I'm sure they'll figure it all out.

 

[RSoxNo1]

To me, the wait time balance is 30-40 minutes, and even that is only once or twice a day, if at all. I try to keep my wait times below 15 minutes, and I feel that this should be possible with fast pass, and attractions with capacity issues need to be addressed.

 

[Figment571]

When the kids were small, we only showed them older content and nothing that was smash cut or edited quickly. We raised them on lots of black and white stuff like, Lucy, Chaplin, Keaton, Lloyd and other silents hoping to make it taste good to them. The Disney stuff was features. I know it helped, but now they have grown into the more mainstream stuff. At least they will still watch black and white movies with us or watch the sunset.

It is kinda funny you mention that. I am a highschool student and I took some old Oswald and Mickey DVD's in to class when we were studying the 1920's and we watched some of the cartoons, oddly enough I had never heard a group of highschool students laugh so much as when we were watching those cartoons. They might say something is funny and give a chuckle at it, but they were really giving a good laugh for the old Oswald and Mickey stuff, latter in the year my teacher brought in some old Chaplin shorts and they loved those too. It was odd, I would have never thought they would have liked it, but they surprised me.

I do think that if there was really an effort to make things that don't TRY to hip or edgy, just let them be as they are, like Oswald or Mickey (old Mickey) that it will show that things can appeal to everyone, just let it come naturally. Like Walt said, "Quality will out."

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It is kinda funny you mention that. I am a highschool student and I took some old Oswald and Mickey DVD's in to class when we were studying the 1920's and we watched some of the cartoons, oddly enough I had never heard a group of highschool students laugh so much as when we were watching those cartoons. It was odd, I would have never thought they would have liked it, but they surprised me.

I do think that if there was really an effort to make things that don't TRY to hip or edgy, just let them be as they are, like Oswald or Mickey (old Mickey) that it will show that things can appeal to everyone, just let it come naturally. Like Walt said, "Quality will out."

Great story, it reminds me of how an audience can "give in" to the corny humor at the "Diamond Horseshoe". There is this group dynamic where you "give yourself permission" to go along with something because of the group. At first, you're like, these jokes are soooo bad,and things are uneasy, but eventually the chuckles build and you all decide to go along for the ride and pretty soon you and everyone else is howling at these cornball jokes. I can't really explain it. It's a combination of losing your own pretention and group think.

To your other point, letting kids experience this old stuff sinks in and has it's place. Last night at dinner we discussed who our all time favorite actors were. Our 10 yr old daughter said Streisand, Doris Day, Don Adams, Hayley Mills, Marilyn Monroe, Tony Curtis, Abbot and Costello, Lucy, and Miley Cyrus! Our 10 yr old son said Hayley Mills, Chaplin, George Lopez, Laurel and Hardy, Paulette Goddard, Paul Lynde, AnnaSophia Robb, the kid in Gremlins, etc. They mashed up the dead and alive stars. They see all of them as equally good and didn't prejudge them generationally.

Generally, they still want to be doing something on an iPhone, as you can tell, we put lots of old movies on there to add some balance.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I suppose, in a way, Disney has reached a unique point in its maturity as a maker of themed experiences in that it has created a generational gap not necessarily between people of different ages but between people of different levels of exposure to their brand of magic. An "experience gap" I guess.

Very good topic. I like this.
One thing to remember is that all of these Disney "lands" read differently over time to each generation. Frontierland in 1955 meant the world of Davy Crockett, the mega TV star. Most TV shows were Westerns. It was huge. Tomorrowland was truly full of promise in that it was about a quest to space, namely the moon and we were out to do that. It was not conquered yet. Exciting stuff. The deeper resonance of the lands is pretty much lost now, except for the intrinsic things that are more timeless, like Tom Sawyer's Island. Kids will always want to explore caves, but they are not reliving that book per se as they don't savor the story like the do Pirates, so the company changes it to Pirates.

I've always believed that things can work on two levels and you design for both adults and kids at the some time. D Dale (king of the surf guitar) music in 1996 worked on Space Mountain as teens heard it as the music from that cool movie "Pulp Fiction", and Dad saw it as the 1950's Deltones and Surf Music. It got over 98% positive reviews at the time from all ages.

Encounter Restaurant at LAX had lava lamps that dad would relate to but they were themed in a modern way that would look like something Philippe Starck would have done. Same with the music. There was 1960's "jet set" lounge music woven into new cover versions of those classics by DJ's so it was reinvented to a degree for both audiences. That seemed to work very well. I think if there was a way to address the "experience gap", this may be a small gesture toward that.

So.....Imagine WOM returning in a different form (ala Spiderman?), same story and redoing TT so it ends with us boarding the future in the new "Tron legacy" lightcycles!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6jfm0hq0bk

This is one EPCOT "Crossover" I can get into! Transportation in Cyberspace! (Crystal Method doing "Fun to be free!" at 150 BPM?) So lets get this on the Peoplemover beamways somewhere now!
(Ok. I'll step back off the ledge and put down the Dole Whip. Sorry for the outburst.)

 

[Huck]

I like this idea. I can't seem to open the link on my iphone though. My first response was "They'll never put Crystal Method in the parks", but then again There waz a time when I would have said "They'll never put Aerosmith
in the parks" so there you have it.

 

[Huck]

Quote:Eddie Sotto:
"The deeper resonance of the lands is pretty much lost now, except for the intrinsic things that are more timeless, like Tom Sawyer's Island. Kids will always want to explore caves, but they are not reliving that book per se as they don't savor the story like the do Pirates, so the company changes it to Pirates"

This has often made me wonder what exactly is different now about Tom Sawyer Island. The novel Tom Sawyer was no more contemporary int the fifties than it is today. Mark Twain lived and died long before Anyone from that generation was around and yet TSI was much more popular then. So is it just that TSI needs to be updated to appeal to current tastes in entrrtainment or is there something deeper going on?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Very good topic. I like this.
One thing to remember is that all of these Disney "lands" read differently over time to each generation. Frontierland in 1955 meant the world of Davy Crockett, the mega TV star. Most TV shows were Westerns. It was huge. Tomorrowland was truly full of promise in that it was about a quest to space, namely the moon and we were out to do that. It was not conquered yet. Exciting stuff. The deeper resonance of the lands is pretty much lost now, except for the intrinsic things that are more timeless, like Tom Sawyer's Island. Kids will always want to explore caves, but they are not reliving that book per se as they don't savor the story like the do Pirates, so the company changes it to Pirates.

I've always believed that things can work on two levels and you design for both adults and kids at the some time. D Dale (king of the surf guitar) music in 1996 worked on Space Mountain as teens heard it as the music from that cool movie "Pulp Fiction", and Dad saw it as the 1950's Deltones and Surf Music. It got over 98% positive reviews at the time from all ages.

Encounter Restaurant at LAX had lava lamps that dad would relate to but they were themed in a modern way that would look like something Philippe Starck would have done. Same with the music. There was 1960's "jet set" lounge music woven into new cover versions of those classics by DJ's so it was reinvented to a degree for both audiences. That seemed to work very well. I think if there was a way to address the "experience gap", this may be a small gesture toward that.

So.....Imagine WOM returning in a different form (ala Spiderman?), same story and redoing TT so it ends with us boarding the future in the new "Tron legacy" lightcycles!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6jfm0hq0bk

This is one EPCOT "Crossover" I can get into! Transportation in Cyberspace! (Crystal Method doing "Fun to be free!" at 150 BPM?) So lets get this on the Peoplemover beamways somewhere now!
(Ok. I'll step back off the ledge and put down the Dole Whip. Sorry for the outburst.)

YES. The WoM Story with a high speed finale. Always should have been like that. Almost like a Time racers sort of approach.:lookaroun:lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I can't seem to open the link on my iphone though.

"Wanna ride a Lightcycle? There's an App for that!"