Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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jt04

Well-Known Member
Hearing you say that encourages me a lot - I had suspected this, but had no real basis for the feeling. Iger, in the way he talks and a few initiatives of his chairmanship, has given me that technocrat vibe that I have often hoped boded well for the future.

With him not only assenting to progressive initiatives at WDI but actually pushing for them, and Jobs's love of technology and ability to market it, we could really be past the days of EPCOT Daredevil Circus Spectacular. Hopefully this will also include a greater voice for those with a knowledge of Disney's past and the importance of some creative traditions. Just today I was reading Tony Baxter's story about Eisner wanting to put a Daryl Hannah animatronic waving to guests at the end of Splash Mountain - "getting it" is a very important thing.

I sincerely believe Iger is the most underrated exec Disney has ever had. In reading about him from different sources I have gotten what I think are real insights into his character. And it amazes me so few people see it. The idea Eisner choose him as a replacement is almost funny. I think it would be more accurate to say, "Iger chose Eisner to pick Iger as his replacement".
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Iger, in the way he talks and a few initiatives of his chairmanship, has given me that technocrat vibe that I have often hoped boded well for the future.

Evidence of this would be promoting the former head of WDI's R&D Technology group to run the entire creative side of WDI. He expects creativity to come from more than just one side of the house and sees R&D as part of that picture. It's the technology application as well. To me, this is the area of the company where there is real growth. If you didn't think technology played a big role in how stories would be told in the future would you have made that choice? I think symbolically that moves says alot about his thinking.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Nice! :lol:

Umm, you have no idea how many people you have given heartburn to with your praise of Iger. Do you mind if I quote you? It will save me the trouble of writing many lengthy posts and I only have a distant impression of the man but I believe he is absolutely the right person for the job. Thanks for the great insights!

Don't quote me. I don't do his PR, just my opinion which is nothing more than that.:lol: Besides you need to write those lengthly posts so you can say later you were right all along.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Good point. I guess that's why we need Walt... I guess that's the benefit of an individual with a singular vision and unquestioned power over the company. The stockholders were never going to give Walt the boot for going out on a limb - probably because whenever he went out on a limb it paid off in spades.

But then there's Steve Jobs. Just look at what he did within a public company. Made the "computing experience" important to the consumer, pushing the PC makers to try harder. iTunes blew up the record industry, made media portable so we watch anything anywhere, and reinvented the ultimate convergence device (so far) with the iPhone. He made us appreciate good clean design. What I love most is the fact that Apple is so small in market share, but their impact on the industries they enter is gigantic and ultimately improves all the products around them by raising the stakes. If EPCOT could be the iPhone (meaning "raising the stakes" in all areas) of theme parks, THE PLANET WOULD TAKE NOTICE.
 
But then there's Steve Jobs. Just look at what he did within a public company. Made the "computing experience" important to the consumer, pushing the PC makers to try harder. iTunes blew up the record industry, made media portable so we watch anything anywhere, and reinvented the ultimate convergence device (so far) with the iPhone. He made us appreciate good clean design. What I love most is the fact that Apple is so small in market share, but their impact on the industries they enter is gigantic and ultimately improves all the products around them by raising the stakes. If EPCOT could be the iPhone (meaning "raising the stakes" in all areas) of theme parks, THE PLANET WOULD TAKE NOTICE.

Which would mean an everchanging Epcot due to the inventions changing. The invention you see tomorrow are dated in 3 months as technology changes or the next person improves on the idea . This would make it the park more dynamic because people would want to come more just to see what is new but this might give pause to some purists. If we keep the rides and attractions status quo then it would be more stale than ever. The Land ride still works because alot of those things have not been adapted to worldwide use.

The COP is great because it shows where we have been but was also to show where we were going. The last ride is now today but 15 years ago it wasnt. Is it time to Update COP for modern times... BTW, COP is very Epcot to me...
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
In my blog post I did not intend to suggest that any EPCOT pavilion promote a specific political viewpoint, I was merely pointing out that the success of that particular film (again, the highest-grossing documentary ever) illustrates how the subject of the environment and global warming has come to the fore of public awareness.

I would expect any exploration of the issue within EPCOT to involve several theories for causes of and solutions for our current situation, all based on the best science available. The more complicated the problem, the less likely there is to be a black and white solution. And, as Mr. Sotto said, any theory - no matter how well founded - should be presented as such. EPCOT should be based on the hard and indisputable facts as much as possible, to best avoid the politization of science that seems to recur periodically throughout history (after all, Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Darwin - all derided at one point or another).

.

And some still are...:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, science today had become about as safe a topic as religion and politics. Our politicians have done well to muddy the waters further. Problem is, while you may do exhaustive research, when it comes down to it your conclusion is based on an educated guess. Math, physics, and their cousin engineering may be the most fact based, but when you get into biology, environmental science, astronomy [Disney parks management :lol:] and the like...we do have a lot of information, but conclusions are subjective.

Possibly the biggest challenge today is the flood of internet "info", urban legends and personal preferences that are held to tightly in spite of strong information to the contrary. To paraphrase the X Files, there are those that want to believe, those that don't want to believe...and neither camp seems to let facts get in their way.
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
But then there's Steve Jobs. Just look at what he did within a public company. Made the "computing experience" important to the consumer, pushing the PC makers to try harder. iTunes blew up the record industry, made media portable so we watch anything anywhere, and reinvented the ultimate convergence device (so far) with the iPhone. He made us appreciate good clean design. What I love most is the fact that Apple is so small in market share, but their impact on the industries they enter is gigantic and ultimately improves all the products around them by raising the stakes. If EPCOT could be the iPhone (meaning "raising the stakes" in all areas) of theme parks, THE PLANET WOULD TAKE NOTICE.

Which would mean an everchanging Epcot due to the inventions changing. The invention you see tomorrow are dated in 3 months as technology changes or the next person improves on the idea . This would make it the park more dynamic because people would want to come more just to see what is new but this might give pause to some purists. If we keep the rides and attractions status quo then it would be more stale than ever. The Land ride still works because alot of those things have not been adapted to worldwide use.

The COP is great because it shows where we have been but was also to show where we were going. The last ride is now today but 15 years ago it wasnt. Is it time to Update COP for modern times... BTW, COP is very Epcot to me...

While I agree that the original charter of Epcot was to be that technology leader and showcase, the challenge of presenting that from a show perspective is fundamentally different that business implementation.

Once something like the i-phone or an new Intel chip is developed, production lines can be retooled and operational in a few months.

For Disney or anyone to tell a story, a proper entertaining story, development would be a long as for the actual technology, but translating it into structure and anamatronics and film and show would take at least a year to build (using existing infrastructure), and as robbwilder pointed out, with a technology turnaround of 3-6 months. As soon as the "new" exhibit would be ready, it would already be outdated.

Epcot was supposed to be a permanent "Worlds Fair" and considering that the concept of a Worlds Fair has fallen by the wayside due to the speed of technology and the cost of presenting it on a grand scale [I guess '64 was the last successful one?]....maybe it's a good thing that Epcot has changed focus. Now whether they have in fact found a new [sustainable]focus and applied it is another discussion.
 
While I agree that the original charter of Epcot was to be that technology leader and showcase, the challenge of presenting that from a show perspective is fundamentally different that business implementation.

Once something like the i-phone or an new Intel chip is developed, production lines can be retooled and operational in a few months.

For Disney or anyone to tell a story, a proper entertaining story, development would be a long as for the actual technology, but translating it into structure and anamatronics and film and show would take at least a year to build (using existing infrastructure), and as robbwilder pointed out, with a technology turnaround of 3-6 months. As soon as the "new" exhibit would be ready, it would already be outdated.

Epcot was supposed to be a permanent "Worlds Fair" and considering that the concept of a Worlds Fair has fallen by the wayside due to the speed of technology and the cost of presenting it on a grand scale [I guess '64 was the last successful one?]....maybe it's a good thing that Epcot has changed focus. Now whether they have in fact found a new [sustainable]focus and applied it is another discussion.

I guess you would have to have your CORE rides in place. The Seas, The Land, Imagination, Space Ship Earth, Space, Transportation and Energy but the displays available could be ever changing with the times. Innoventions would be a great showcase also. Like ES said if EPCOT could market unvelings of new tech .. They could take over things like E3, Tech conventions, etc... They have the hotel space for it and would mean a greater changing dynamic for guests and make it more .. "MUST SEE".. Your core rides could stay the same specifying about the CORE Issue etc but your pavillions and such could be the changing dynamic.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I guess you would have to have your CORE rides in place. The Seas, The Land, Imagination, Space Ship Earth, Space, Transportation and Energy but the displays available could be ever changing with the times. Innoventions would be a great showcase also. Like ES said if EPCOT could market unvelings of new tech .. They could take over things like E3, Tech conventions, etc... They have the hotel space for it and would mean a greater changing dynamic for guests and make it more .. "MUST SEE".. Your core rides could stay the same specifying about the CORE Issue etc but your pavillions and such could be the changing dynamic.

Communicore is designed to be just that. Eisner once saw the CES in Las Vegas and said he wanted that kind of "just a year away" excitement in Communicore. Easier said than done with sponsorships and the time it takes to get them in there. But it is there and has new technologies. This notion was to keep the "heart" of FW fresher, while the core rides were less tied to continual change as they are long lead times. Maybe it's as good as you can do given the constraints?

Maybe the WDW property overall and it's transportation system between the Resorts, Parks etc should be the first place to demo the "future" and improve the overall experience? Traffic and confusing roads is not very Walt. What if the busses were reinvented? Boats? Peoplemovers? Lead by example.
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
Maybe the WDW property overall and it's transportation system between the Resorts, Parks etc should be the first place to demo the "future" and improve the overall experience? Traffic and confusing roads is not very Walt. What if the busses were reinvented? Boats? Peoplemovers? Lead by example.

While I'm willing to accept that monorails (and expansion of that system) are not the answer to Disney transportation, for a long time, I wondered why the Peoplemover system wasn't deployed on a grander scale. It can handle the volume, needs minimal staffing (at least compared to busses) is a lot cleaner...and on. I would be curious to know if that had ever been seriously considered.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Quick Digression. Remain seated Please.

"We have encountered a thread bump in the night from a prankish spook! We will resume our tour shortly. Please remain seated in your.... thread buggies"

I ran across this great site on Knott's Berry Farm and since many of you are not "west coasties", I thought you'd enjoy these images and the story of the place. I worked as a designer at KBF 1979 to 83. For the owner Walter Knott, KBF was truly a labor of love. Imagine your own house becoming a theme park? His "Marceline" was Calico Ghost Town so he imported it and the talent to go with it. Like Disney, Knott saw the world changing and wanted to remind us of the sacrifices made by our forefathers (like MSUSA and Frontierland). KBF was sold by the family some years ago to Cedar Fair Amusements. It's mostly coasters now, but these pics show you how rich the experience was back then before there was a DL. Walt would go there and measure the width of the streets. The story I heard at Knott's was that both Walt's were friends till Disney hired away the Indians from the farm to make his own Indian Village.

Enjoy this digression from the IPhone!

http://www.image-archeology.com/knotts_berry_farm.htm
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
While I'm willing to accept that monorails (and expansion of that system) are not the answer to Disney transportation, for a long time, I wondered why the Peoplemover system wasn't deployed on a grander scale. It can handle the volume, needs minimal staffing (at least compared to busses) is a lot cleaner...and on. I would be curious to know if that had ever been seriously considered.

It was, and it think the expense of the concrete beamways, track vehicles, etc and all the power consumption (would be mag lev now) made it impractical against the cost of an AC'd Bus. But so what? You're on vacation!:animwink:
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
While I'm willing to accept that monorails (and expansion of that system) are not the answer to Disney transportation, for a long time, I wondered why the Peoplemover system wasn't deployed on a grander scale. It can handle the volume, needs minimal staffing (at least compared to busses) is a lot cleaner...and on. I would be curious to know if that had ever been seriously considered.

I've often wondered the same thing myself. I would be willing to bet it would be a cost issue, but think of how much you could save on diesel fuel alone in the first 5 to 10 years, as well as maintenance on the bus fleet, not to mention having a greener environment for guests. I would be curious to see the return on investment study of exactly that.

Eddie's watercraft comment has been rolling around in my head all morning. What is a newer, greener, and more interesting way to travel across the water? That is going to be a fun one to concept on. :)
 
I've often wondered the same thing myself. I would be willing to bet it would be a cost issue, but think of how much you could save on diesel fuel alone in the first 5 to 10 years, as well as maintenance on the bus fleet, not to mention having a greener environment for guests. I would be curious to see the return on investment study of exactly that.

Eddie's watercraft comment has been rolling around in my head all morning. What is a newer, greener, and more interesting way to travel across the water? That is going to be a fun one to concept on. :)

The problem with watercraft is you are in an enviromentally protected area there. You have to go slow or idle from PO to DTD. Its a very nice ride but not one I want to wait for getting back from a hot day at the park after fireworks. After the monorail accident, they were definitly worried that ferries could not handle capacity of guests coming to and from the park.

You would almost have to start from scratch and install Utilidors under all the parks leading to and from the hotels and attractions. Put your vehicles underground with the air being filtered from exhaust. That could be your green. I think at this point there might not be too much more of an answer. Hybrid Buses if you are worried about that but Disney Air to me is some of the freshest in the state.

I agree that the monorail is not the answer especially from a logistcal stand point. You would have to switch at so many stations and think of the track switching and safety concerns. Buses are by far the most effecient vehicles out there. Now automating the buses would be a techno improvement allowing for greater capacity but alot of people would be sceptical at best.
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
The idea Eisner choose him as a replacement is almost funny. I think it would be more accurate to say, "Iger chose Eisner to pick Iger as his replacement".

I think that this fact is why he got off to a rough spot with a lot of fans - I'll admit that I was incredibly skeptical as well. He's definitely surprised me by making a lot of clean breaks with the past.

Evidence of this would be promoting the former head of WDI's R&D Technology group to run the entire creative side of WDI. He expects creativity to come from more than just one side of the house and sees R&D as part of that picture. It's the technology application as well. To me, this is the area of the company where there is real growth. If you didn't think technology played a big role in how stories would be told in the future would you have made that choice? I think symbolically that moves says alot about his thinking.

That's true, and I hadn't really thought about it that way. One can definitely see the increased role of R&D tech in recent years, from the Living Character Initiative to the Kim Possible thing at EPCOT to the RFID rumors floating around. I don't always agree with the way the tech is implemented, but there's not doubt that they're pushing the envelope.

But then there's Steve Jobs. Just look at what he did within a public company. Made the "computing experience" important to the consumer, pushing the PC makers to try harder. iTunes blew up the record industry, made media portable so we watch anything anywhere, and reinvented the ultimate convergence device (so far) with the iPhone. He made us appreciate good clean design. What I love most is the fact that Apple is so small in market share, but their impact on the industries they enter is gigantic and ultimately improves all the products around them by raising the stakes. If EPCOT could be the iPhone (meaning "raising the stakes" in all areas) of theme parks, THE PLANET WOULD TAKE NOTICE.

That makes me want to stand up and salute, because that's exactly what it should be. The iPhone of theme parks. And again, the fact that the iPhone has become such a big deal and has been embraced by non-techies as well as gadget nerds shows that the public is even more in tune with EPCOT's vibe than in 1982.

Which would mean an everchanging Epcot due to the inventions changing.

That was the original intent, after all, and I think there's no reason why some attractions can't be more permanent, as you mention below:

I guess you would have to have your CORE rides in place. The Seas, The Land, Imagination, Space Ship Earth, Space, Transportation and Energy but the displays available could be ever changing with the times. Innoventions would be a great showcase also. Like ES said if EPCOT could market unvelings of new tech .. They could take over things like E3, Tech conventions, etc... They have the hotel space for it and would mean a greater changing dynamic for guests and make it more .. "MUST SEE".. Your core rides could stay the same specifying about the CORE Issue etc but your pavillions and such could be the changing dynamic.

I think this is exactly right, and what I was kind of dancing around before. It's important that EPCOT present both the long- and medium-view. Often the long-view is more exciting and inspiring, and allows attractions to stay relevant for a long while with minimal cosmetic changes. After all, Horizons would have been much less exciting if it had been about laserdiscs and 9600 baud modems, or if today it was about 3G iPods or the XBOX360.

But the medium-view is also exciting, more relevant to guests' everyday lives, and more dynamic. I think it's exactly right that postshow areas or Innoventions are the place for these ever-changing exhibits. That's what Communicore was for in the first place; it was meant to bring all the messages from the pavilions together and relate the current advances in those fields to guests.

I love your idea of bringing concepts like E3 or CES to EPCOT; this too was part of EPCOT's original vision - having events and conferences based around advances in the fields discussed.

Maybe the WDW property overall and it's transportation system between the Resorts, Parks etc should be the first place to demo the "future" and improve the overall experience? Traffic and confusing roads is not very Walt. What if the busses were reinvented? Boats? Peoplemovers? Lead by example.

Exactly right. For all the PR spin from the 70s to cloak the fact that WDP was bailing on Walt's plan for an actual EPCOT, one thing that was true was that, in may ways, the entire WDW property is EPCOT. From the water hyacinths/tree farm, AVAC/pyrolysis, and RCID solar installation to the WEDway and monorail, the technology underlying WDW was publicised almost as much as the park itself in 1971. Things like the first fiber optic phone system were actual selling points for the innovation WDW represented. All this stuff was very forward looking, and it'd be great to see this outlook again resort-wide.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Heresy

What if you made lots of Peoplemover vehicles that used the monorail beamways (no monorails during peak seasons) so there was a near endless capacity and they rode atop the rails, likely enclosed. They would look pretty awesome up there. These little glowing strands spacing themselves out and then coming together.
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
The problem with watercraft is you are in an enviromentally protected area there. You have to go slow or idle from PO to DTD. Its a very nice ride but not one I want to wait for getting back from a hot day at the park after fireworks. After the monorail accident, they were definitly worried that ferries could not handle capacity of guests coming to and from the park.

You would almost have to start from scratch and install Utilidors under all the parks leading to and from the hotels and attractions. Put your vehicles underground with the air being filtered from exhaust. That could be your green. I think at this point there might not be too much more of an answer. Hybrid Buses if you are worried about that but Disney Air to me is some of the freshest in the state.

I agree that the monorail is not the answer especially from a logistcal stand point. You would have to switch at so many stations and think of the track switching and safety concerns. Buses are by far the most effecient vehicles out there. Now automating the buses would be a techno improvement allowing for greater capacity but alot of people would be sceptical at best.

Automated electric busses, ala something like I-Robot is a really interesting idea. The watercraft thing is puzzling I agree, but their has to be a new way of getting across the water other than the standard diesel ferry/boat, electric watercraft have been around for a while, but I don't feel that's the answer either, their has to be some way of working within/around the current environmental constraints that just hasn't been discovered ... yet.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
The problem with watercraft is you are in an enviromentally protected area there. You have to go slow or idle from PO to DTD. Its a very nice ride but not one I want to wait for getting back from a hot day at the park after fireworks. After the monorail accident, they were definitly worried that ferries could not handle capacity of guests coming to and from the park.

You would almost have to start from scratch and install Utilidors under all the parks leading to and from the hotels and attractions. Put your vehicles underground with the air being filtered from exhaust. That could be your green. I think at this point there might not be too much more of an answer. Hybrid Buses if you are worried about that but Disney Air to me is some of the freshest in the state.

I agree that the monorail is not the answer especially from a logistcal stand point. You would have to switch at so many stations and think of the track switching and safety concerns. Buses are by far the most effecient vehicles out there. Now automating the buses would be a techno improvement allowing for greater capacity but alot of people would be sceptical at best.
This is not really possible. The geology of Florida is not even remotely suitable for tunneling. While the utilidoors are under MK they are not technically underground. They were built on grade and then buried.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
The problem with watercraft is you are in an enviromentally protected area there. You have to go slow or idle from PO to DTD. Its a very nice ride but not one I want to wait for getting back from a hot day at the park after fireworks. After the monorail accident, they were definitly worried that ferries could not handle capacity of guests coming to and from the park.

You would almost have to start from scratch and install Utilidors under all the parks leading to and from the hotels and attractions. Put your vehicles underground with the air being filtered from exhaust. That could be your green. I think at this point there might not be too much more of an answer. Hybrid Buses if you are worried about that but Disney Air to me is some of the freshest in the state.

I agree that the monorail is not the answer especially from a logistcal stand point. You would have to switch at so many stations and think of the track switching and safety concerns. Buses are by far the most effecient vehicles out there. Now automating the buses would be a techno improvement allowing for greater capacity but alot of people would be sceptical at best.

I have thought a lot about the transportation issue and have come to the conclusion a resort wide solution is not practical. I think various technologies would be the best solution. For instance they could use a TTA type system (loop) between the Epcot resorts the main gate at DHS and the International Gateway and probably have it be cost efficient. Running a people mover to FW or DTD however would not be. I think ES's comment about watercraft is in the context of better efficiency. For instance, connecting the new Four Seasons with the MK might best be accomplished with boats rather than busses.

By the way, I thought the busses had been automated. Has that system been scrapped? :veryconfu
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
While I'm willing to accept that monorails (and expansion of that system) are not the answer to Disney transportation, for a long time, I wondered why the Peoplemover system wasn't deployed on a grander scale. It can handle the volume, needs minimal staffing (at least compared to busses) is a lot cleaner...and on. I would be curious to know if that had ever been seriously considered.

The WEDway was intended for the LBV village as late as the 1980s, I know, and was included in the first version of World Showcase from 1974 as well as (if I'm not mistaken) being intended for EPCOT Center.
 
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