Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

A further question, though; Why, in your opinion, have they used the talents of outside designers (not to take anything away from the multitudes of wonderful designers they have/had, present company included) for other projects, but not for any park design? I bet Rem Koolhaus could make a sweet theme park.

About the interview, do you believe your notion of tomorrowland could ever happen? Of Walt's Progress City as a DVC concept?

If you might elaborate as well on the idea of this shift being born of a corporate initiative? Why has Disney fallen behind in predicting the future as design, something they seemed to be at the forefront for many decades?

I think that one reason that "name" architects were not chosen for the parks was that in the beginning Walt didn't get what he wanted from them (also Walt's the name on the door, not Geary). WED borrowed so much from those architects in their day anyway. Eero Saarinen (TL 67), Charles Eames (IASW, '55 TL), etc. DL is emotion and theater and has more in common with film set design than "real world" architecture. So if the park is an "escape", IMHO why import so much of the "real world" that exists unless it its taken to another level. That's what I meant in my interview.
http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/

T'land '67 was an example of a hybrid. WED being inspired by Saarinen's modern look. In the case of the next Tomorrowland, I think that innovation in construction and green technology plays a big role, so maybe a collaboration may be in keeping. for example, MIT was behind the 1957 Monsanto plastic "House of the Future" by MIT architects Marvin Goody and Hamilton. In this case, the construction itself was a big aspect of it's futurism so Walt decided in favor of MIT. So it happened already!

http://www.dailyicon.net/2009/04/icon-disneys-monsanto-house-of-the-future/

To answer your question about if the big dreams can still happen, like Progress City. Which the planet needs now more than it did in 1967. I'll never bet against WDI. Anything can happen. What gets built is a product of the health of the business, "a perfect storm" of the right combination of management and opportunity, not the the lack of passion of the Imagineers. As we know, their potential is always waiting to be tapped.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

What gets built is a product of the health of the business, the right combination of management and opportunity, not the passion of the Imagineers and their potential which is inexhaustible.

What gets built is a product of the health of the business, "a perfect storm" of the right combination of management and opportunity, not the the lack of passion of the Imagineers. As we know, their potential is always waiting to be tapped.

I really like that line Eddie. Thinking of the multitude of arguments/discussions that have risen on this and other sites, where people bring up the virtues and vices of beancounters and presidents, visionaries, keepers of Walt's dreams, making imagination real, enjoyable, profitable...that yardstick seems to put things in line. Mix that with your pendulum theory (which I guess can be rolled into opportunity), and you have the whole process captured.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I really like that line Eddie. Thinking of the multitude of arguments/discussions that have risen on this and other sites, where people bring up the virtues and vices of beancounters and presidents, visionaries, keepers of Walt's dreams, making imagination real, enjoyable, profitable...that yardstick seems to put things in line. Mix that with your pendulum theory (which I guess can be rolled into opportunity), and you have the whole process captured.

LOL. I just EDITED it!!! Glad you liked it.... Sorry.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

Think I like the original better.... :lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Think I like the original better.... :lol:

Of course. Another Eddie revision brought to by terminallyoverthought.com

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Not to open the "story" can of worms again, but this may be worth mentioning.

Future World Attractions are unique in that they were designed "exposition style" without the guest being immersed in a "you are there" or "first person" linear story (Star Tour's or Indy is first person) as at MK. Rather, Future World broke tradition and told "lessons", each driven by a musical score that linked various themed "vignettes" together ("Listen to the Land", World of Motion's "Fun to be free", "U of E", even Horizons). No literal story of survival or drama relating to the guest (ok. Body Wars and CC). They are Ward Kimball educational films you basically ride through. The Living Seas started to break from this with Seabase Alpha. Still no drama or threat as in a first person "something goes wrong" show but immersive and a trip somewhere. The shows that now stand out as fictional places that ask you to participate within Future World, are ironically Imagination (Institute), Space (ISTC) and Test Track (GM R&D). They in fact do tell stories where you are involved and the test folks throw problems at you. I'm not defending any of these shows as better or worse, just calling attention to the difference which I thought was getting lost in the debate. Not that we want to reopen it!

 

[Missing20K]

As always thanks for the insight and information.

I find it fascinating that while Disney began to perfect the escapism I believe you are discussing, that over the years, "real world" architecture has at times tried to instill some escapism into malls, parks, public spaces, etc. And, ironically, there are spaces and buildings within the parks, that are trying desperately, and successfully, to re-create "real world" architecture. DAK's Asia and Africa areas come to mind, as well as the entire World Showcase. Now obviously they are "stereotypical" depictions of what one might find in their "real world" counterparts, but are nonetheless fairly accurate representations. This interplay of theme park design influencing real world design, and vice versa is interesting to say the least, imo.

Do you believe those with a background in set design are more suited to designing for the parks, over say an architect, aesthetically speaking? Not necessarily the nails and concrete, but the emotion and theater, as you say.

As far as the transition of Future World attractions from an exposition style to a story driven style, do you see any particular reasons as to why this took place? Was it just coincidence, or a concerted effort?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Do you believe those with a background in set design are more suited to designing for the parks, over say an architect, aesthetically speaking? Not necessarily the nails and concrete, but the emotion and theater, as you say.

Yes. For sure. John Hench saw what I was doing for Main Street and that the WDI Architects were trying to get me to include facades that represented all kinds of different american architects (Sullivan,White, etc). He and Herbie told me not to and that it's about theater, not architecture. So yes, set design is more of a craft to master. All of my teachers were set designers.

As far as the transition of Future World attractions from an exposition style to a story driven style, do you see any particular reasons as to why this took place? Was it just coincidence, or a concerted effort?

Great question, but I was not there, so I don't really know. My guess would be that EPCOT was about the big message or theme and they looked back to the '65 Fair as a benchmark on how to tell big stories. IASM was very abstract and a musical message, so was the Ford Pavilion, etc. WS is more literal. I will ask Marty and get back to you on this. Will see him next week.

BTW to your point, the "Real World" has tried to be more like Disneyland while the parks to a degree in their evolution have become more realistic in tone. Themed malls, twinkle lights in the trees, themed hotels, nametags, Chuckie Cheese, etc. Then look at how Tony Baxter introduced scenic "aging" into the parks with Big Thunder, which caught on and added realism to the enameled and pristeen environments.
I can even say that MSUSA for DLP was a step in that direction with more realistic finishes and a more historic take on things. AK in most areas vs. Adventureland is "real" versus "total fantasy". Frankly, my business today is exporting a "Disneyesque" style to the real world!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

More than the future.

Futuristic decor? Do you mean like the Contemporary?
It truly is a futile pursuit as technology now changes so rapidly...It is nearly impossible to keep infrastructure current. Just think of the short history of current technology, from flat screen TV's to cellphones and blackberrys. None of this was even in the vernacular 10 years ago. How can buildings and infrastructure keep up with that pace.

This is so true, but isn't it also true that consumer technology is only a small piece of the future. It's as if you are "chasing the wind". The future we are facing has the word "survival" in it and to some degree it's caused by technology. IMHO the future should be defined by more than consumer products alone.

The one thing about SSE that I miss is the whole idea that the Earth itself in it's awesome design holds many answers for the future. Looking inward at what we have as a home as the inspiration for what we will have as solutions. The natural designs found on our Earth have inspired man's accomplishments which are minor by comparison. IMHO The credit is misplaced and humility is our key to understanding those deeper secrets that are part of our future. There is so much to learn. If guests left with an appreciation for their home and what a gift it is, how it has more potential to heal itself and the answers within, that would be great.

This leads to another real issue that "futurism" has a hard time dealing with because it can't be sponsored. Spirituality. It's our inner will that pushes us to seek the next Horizon, not a plasma screen.

We are born with this desire to have a purpose to our lives, maybe it's just to survive, but to some it's more. We keep searching for life and it's meaning. So much of the future is hope and where we place our trust which is fast eroding, and the one thing that may be different than the 50's futures of the past is that we are more post consumer, corporations just selling us their products does not necessarily make for a "big beautiful tomorrow", so it rings more hollow every day. We are more wary of products as the things we were told would save us, may cause cancer. People want more than just technology and they are searching for meaning in their future too. So the hard thing for an EPCOT is to instill genuine hope because it's fact based, which is not that easy when all your chips rest on science or corporations like EXXON. So FW@EPCOT can feel hollow by comparison to the MK parks. They provide a generic spirituality by promoting "Wishing on a Star" "fate is kind" or "believing" "dreams come true" (i.e. a better life or future) themes to give that feeling of hope you once had a child. It's a placebo, but it works till you have to come back for more. We all have dreams right?

Illuminations/WS feels warmer to me. At it's core is a spiritual value, it celebrates our inner desire for all people to live as one in a peaceful setting. It's EPCOT's WS dream and a good one and you feel good and adds "magic" to EPCOT. I think this "secret weapon" separates Disney from the pack. IMHO, it's the Disney religion of "magic" that Universal does not really have.

So when the corporation appears to threaten the "magic" (which they just sell unwittingly) by cheapness or something, people get super upset and feel betrayed as it sends a conflicted message to them because its become deeply personal. They want the company to "practice what they preach" as it's never been a company to them and no one really wants to see that.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

This is so true, but isn't it also true that consumer technology is only a small piece of the future. It's as if you are "chasing the wind". The future we are facing has the word "survival" in it and to some degree it's caused by technology. IMHO the future should be defined by more than consumer products alone.

The one thing about SSE that I miss is the whole idea that the Earth itself in it's awesome design holds many answers for the future. Looking inward at what we have as a home as the inspiration for what we will have as solutions. The natural designs found on our Earth have inspired man's accomplishments which are minor by comparison. IMHO The credit is misplaced and humility is our key to understanding those deeper secrets that are part of our future. There is so much to learn. If guests left with an appreciation for their home and what a gift it is, how it has more potential to heal itself and the answers within, that would be great.

This leads to another real issue that "futurism" has a hard time dealing with because it can't be sponsored. Spirituality. It's our inner will that pushes us to seek the next Horizon, not a plasma screen.

We are born with this desire to have a purpose to our lives, maybe it's just to survive, but to some it's more. We keep searching for life and it's meaning. So much of the future is hope and where we place our trust which is fast eroding, and the one thing that may be different than the 50's futures of the past is that we are more post consumer, corporations just selling us their products does not necessarily make for a "big beautiful tomorrow", so it rings more hollow every day. We are more wary of products as the things we were told would save us, may cause cancer. People want more than just technology and they are searching for meaning in their future too. So the hard thing for an EPCOT is to instill genuine hope because it's fact based, which is not that easy when all your chips rest on science or corporations like EXXON. So FW@EPCOT can feel hollow by comparison to the MK parks. They provide a generic spirituality by promoting "Wishing on a Star" "fate is kind" or "believing" "dreams come true" (i.e. a better life or future) themes to give that feeling of hope you once had a child. It's a placebo, but it works till you have to come back for more. We all have dreams right?

Illuminations/WS feels warmer to me. At it's core is a spiritual value, it celebrates our inner desire for all people to live as one in a peaceful setting. It's EPCOT's WS dream and a good one and you feel good and adds "magic" to EPCOT. I think this "secret weapon" separates Disney from the pack. IMHO, it's the Disney religion of "magic" that Universal does not really have.

So when the corporation appears to threaten the "magic" (which they just sell unwittingly) by cheapness or something, people get super upset and feel betrayed as it sends a conflicted message to them because its become deeply personal. They want the company to "practice what they preach" as it's never been a company to them and no one really wants to see that.

Beautifully said, Eddie.


Honestly, I think that if FW and EPCOT would add the optimism and the futuristic spin it had with Horizons and SSE82-86-94-and EVEN a bit of 07, I think that most "Fanboys" would be placated. I know I would be.:lol:

 

[Oddysey]

Beautifully said, Eddie.


Honestly, I think that if FW and EPCOT would add the optimism and the futuristic spin it had with Horizons and SSE82-86-94-and EVEN a bit of 07, I think that most "Fanboys" would be placated. I know I would be.:lol:

100% agreed, An addition similar to what Horizons represented, would bring back the feeling of hope and inspiration that this country so sorely needs. imho these feelings are what drive us to continue moving forward, and inspires greatness.

 

[jt04]

100% agreed, An addition similar to what Horizons represented, would bring back the feeling of hope and inspiration that this country so sorely needs. imho these feelings are what drive us to continue moving forward, and inspires greatness.

Well said. Optimism never goes out of style, the idea has just been put aside by the "not-so-well-meaning" and those who generally hate everything Walt Disney represented.

FW is begging to be fixed. Just add optimism and storylines that are at least 2 decades into the future and like magic, EPCOT Center is BACK. :sohappy:

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Illuminations/WS feels warmer to me. At it's core is a spiritual value, it celebrates our inner desire for all people to live as one in a peaceful setting. It's EPCOT's WS dream and a good one and you feel good and adds "magic" to EPCOT. I think this "secret weapon" separates Disney from the pack. IMHO, it's the Disney religion of "magic" that Universal does not really have.

Thats the philosophy and spirit that needs to spread around the rest of Epcot and Future World. Its that optimism and desire where technology and innovation help create a better world for ourselves and our children. Bring that back and Epcot will once again be EPCOT.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

100% agreed, An addition similar to what Horizons represented, would bring back the feeling of hope and inspiration that this country so sorely needs. imho these feelings are what drive us to continue moving forward, and inspires greatness.

Yep. It could easily have been done in the new SSE.


In fact...It kinda is.:shrug:

Well said. Optimism never goes out of style, the idea has just been put aside by the "not-so-well-meaning" and those who generally hate everything Walt Disney represented.

FW is begging to be fixed. Just add optimism and storylines that are at least 2 decades into the future and like magic, EPCOT Center is BACK. :sohappy:

I could see it even sooner if they were to get their assus in gear.:lookaroun:lol:

o hai, Innoventions...and SSE....and TT....

Thats the philosophy and spirit that needs to spread around the rest of Epcot and Future World. Its that optimism and desire where technology and innovation help create a better world for ourselves and our children. Bring that back and Epcot will once again be EPCOT.

Closing line of SSE94 much?:sohappy:

 

[Oddysey]

Yep. It could easily have been done in the new SSE.


In fact...It kinda is.:shrug:

Kinda is the key word in that statement. Seeing an animated Jetsons take on the future is far less inspiring and hardly believable, when compared to elaberate set peices and creative settings. If I want to see The Jetsons version of the future I will watch the cartoon network, If I want to see something unique and inspiring I should be able to see it at the Experimental Prototype Community Of Tommorow.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The problem is, placating the fanboys doesn't mean placating the masses. Like it or not, we represent a small percentage of guests that visit Disney World. Even if the individuals spend hours/days/weeks planning out their entire vacation, they could easily miss that sense of nostalgia that so many of us feel when visiting the parks.

The place that Disney holds in my heart is largely based on memories of my youth, and that nostalgia. Not that I dislike the current incarnations of the parks, but the novelty of the likes of Horizons, World of Motion, etc don't hold the appeal they once did. Sure, you could bring them back, but the traditional animatronic driven dark ride is dead. There needs to be a gimmick of sorts, be it thrill, interactivity (more so than the Horizon's ending) or more likely - a movie tie in.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Kinda is the key word in that statement. Seeing an animated Jetsons take on the future is far less inspiring and hardly believable, when compared to elaberate set peices and creative settings. If I want to see The Jetsons version of the future I will watch the cartoon network, If I want to see something unique and inspiring I should be able to see it at the Experimental Prototype Community Of Tommorow.

Indeed. Fix the decent...Move the screens to PJ. Epcot would have a part of EPCOT back. Even the song coming back is something.

The problem is, placating the fanboys doesn't mean placating the masses. Like it or not, we represent a small percentage of guests that visit Disney World. Even if the individuals spend hours/days/weeks planning out their entire vacation, they could easily miss that sense of nostalgia that so many of us feel when visiting the parks.

The place that Disney holds in my heart is largely based on memories of my youth, and that nostalgia. Not that I dislike the current incarnations of the parks, but the novelty of the likes of Horizons, World of Motion, etc don't hold the appeal they once did. Sure, you could bring them back, but the traditional animatronic driven dark ride is dead. There needs to be a gimmick of sorts, be it thrill, interactivity (more so than the Horizon's ending) or more likely - a movie tie in.

Honestly...I think that the non-fan people will eat anything up at this point just because it's Disney and if it's marketed that way.

A fan base is always important, and larger than you think. Just look at DL.

 

[jt04]

The problem is, placating the fanboys doesn't mean placating the masses. Like it or not, we represent a small percentage of guests that visit Disney World. Even if the individuals spend hours/days/weeks planning out their entire vacation, they could easily miss that sense of nostalgia that so many of us feel when visiting the parks.

The place that Disney holds in my heart is largely based on memories of my youth, and that nostalgia. Not that I dislike the current incarnations of the parks, but the novelty of the likes of Horizons, World of Motion, etc don't hold the appeal they once did. Sure, you could bring them back, but the traditional animatronic driven dark ride is dead. There needs to be a gimmick of sorts, be it thrill, interactivity (more so than the Horizon's ending) or more likely - a movie tie in.

Just speaking for myself, but when I talk about bringing Epcot Center back, I am not talking about the original rides. I'm talking about what FW represented when the park opened. And that is the view that innovation and free markets create improvements to our quality of life. Nowadays we are told corporations are the great evil in the land and only pollute and plot ways to take money.

Here is th best example I can think of and one of the easiest. Rewrite the storyline of Test Track to be a test of self navigating vehicle technology which is at least 20 years away but is fun to think about. It would be easy to have a story where the inevitable "testing" goes wrong and the vehicle computer decides it's bored with the testing and goes on a joy ride, with guests in tow. So a fun, futuristic technology is introduced in a creative way and it's also a thrill ride. It also could have humor by poking fun and making "inside jokes" about Test Tracks original problems.

This would not only "placate" the traditionalists, these type fun and informative views of the future would thrill the "masses".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The place that Disney holds in my heart is largely based on memories of my youth, and that nostalgia. Not that I dislike the current incarnations of the parks, but the novelty of the likes of Horizons, World of Motion, etc don't hold the appeal they once did.

Sure it does! And thank heaven there is a nostalgia as it keeps packing them in. This nostalgia you mention makes it hard to be objective, especially when you are the designer with those memories staring at revising your own past. You don't want to mess with your memories and you have to realize at some point that you are romanticizing the past, or that if you don't address the reality (something now boring or not well attended), the corporation will and that could be worse, so you jump in and do your best to keep the emotion you felt but make it fresh. Believe it or not, when I was down at DL (as the design director) in the early nineties I fought changing anything unless forced. There was a deep sense of responsibility and frankly stark terror. Unlike DLP which was new, DL was like sketching over the Mona Lisa. So I eventually saw that change at some level was inevitable, so the thing to watch for is "change for it's own sake", so that had to balance itself out.

David Duchovny once said about making quick script changes during shooting "Never confuse newness with greatness". I think that is brilliant and sometimes in a meeting a new idea comes out and everyone embraces it before really looking at what it's impacts are. The old gets thrown out and we are left in a half baked concept in the heat of the moment. I loved what he said and as the creative process thrives on breakthroughs, sometimes "gems" turn out to be "fools gold".

 

[mcjaco]

I think Eddie's outline of what FW was supposed to be (until The Living Seas), is exactly what I miss about the old FW.

I never got totally immersed in any of the attractions, but gosh darn, were they fun to sit through. Going through era after era of transportation in World of Motion was fun! Seeing what my future car might look like was cool. Even Horizons, as awesome as it was, never put you in the story. You were a bystander listening to what the "hosts" wanted to talk about. Almost like you were eavesdropping into their conversation about the future.

It was like going to a World's Fair. Now it's just kind of, let's see what we can "wow" you with in this pavilion.