Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[WDW1974]

You do know Bruce Gordon died' Right?

Yes, sadly.

Bruce was an acquaintance of mine and a good friend of a friend.

My point was that Bruce was tossed to the curb by WDI before his very untimely demise. And that man lived and breathed Disney.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes, sadly.

Bruce was an acquaintance of mine and a good friend of a friend.

My point was that Bruce was tossed to the curb by WDI before his very untimely demise. And that man lived and breathed Disney.

Bruce was my underground conduit to Tony Baxter. I was working at Landmark and would take progress images of this Jules Verne type stuff I was doing and that was what made Tony decide to hire me for DLP. Later we worked on the TDL Tiki Room before I left. He understood Baxter better than anyone.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Just a couple of quick questions for whylightbulb, and Eddie Sotto if you guys don't mind. During your careers to date what was your most challenging project, and what was your most satisfying project?

Main Street DLP was the toughest. 5 years of being behind because they scrapped a year of design one year in. The most satisfying project is my two kids, but they are way over budget!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As for M:S, you are in a trainer and not in space. However, I keep holding out hope they will reimagine the entire storyline and make the Space pavilion an "actual" journey to mars. I sometimes think they fear being too immersive in their presentations. It would be so easy to take that extra step in many instances and yet they hold back. Odd. :shrug:

I was not part of the Mars story, but I will say you should only attempt what you can pull off. The money was so tight on M:S that trying to really "take to you another planet and drop you off" was discussed but could not be mounted as it was too hard and costly to do convincingly. A pavilion was not in the cards either. What I might have tried was to use "training" as the angle, but then take the artistic license to make the flight media look real to create authentic emotion, not just simulation. Who's to say how real "training" can be? The guest just gets caught up in it, feels the thrills and emotion and we break the spell at the end. I think the weakness of the visuals weakens the flight experience because it's the prime focus.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Just out of curiosity, did you ever hear legit rumblings of MS being cloned in some form for DL's T-Land? That was a very popular Internet rumor that flew around in the 2002-2004 period and I don't know anyone at Disney that said that was the plan.

Very well could have been, but my memory is kinda weak on that. Nothing legit as you say. We pitched it as multi park show, and I did push it for DL, but I'm not sure it hit the master plan. I left the company midstream. While we were developing it for WDW, we proposed a rethemed version of the ride system it as an UFO/Alien abduction type thing for Sci-Fi City. A WILD show. We had great stuff for that project.

 

[jt04]

I was not part of the Mars story, but I will say you should only attempt what you can pull off. The money was so tight on M:S that trying to really "take to you another planet and drop you off" was discussed but could not be mounted as it was too hard and costly to do convincingly. A pavilion was not in the cards either. What I might have tried was to use "training" as the angle, but then take the artistic license to make the flight media look real to create authentic emotion, not just simulation. Who's to say how real "training" can be? The guest just gets caught up in it, feels the thrills and emotion and we break the spell at the end. I think the weakness of the visuals weakens the flight experience because it's the prime focus.

I think you underestimate the visuals. And future spacecraft likely won't have windows. (I suspect the same for cars), but rather video screens of the "outside world". Trust me, I'm not a critic of M:S. I have gotten more than my share of abuse defending it. Mainly against people who were not going to like anything that replaced Horizons. They make me as sick as those that claim M:S makes them sick. Most of them are lying.

Anyway, if WoL was converted to a mars base and a little imagination was applied (and money) the illusion could be pulled off rather well I think.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That's why MS feels very cold. It's kewl. No doubt. But then it's done. You haven't really gone anywhere. You haven't done much. Of course, that's the same issue with Test Track.

I think this is a good point. The old "Flight to the Moon" and "Mission to Mars" shows have the same issue. You never land there. Even Star Tours is just a tour, the payoff isn't big enough. Like you say, you don't go anywhere. Kids, however love it and think they did alot.

The original story FWIT was that your Mission is to go to the International Space Station and when you get there you hit the thing and it ruptures your ship and there is this whole repair drama going with space walkers, etc you talk to, etc. while your ship is freezing and out of power, (like Apollo 13) they power you up, you turn around and head back through loud and fiery re entry, tile falling off, etc and barely land back on earth. Not as exciting as the slingshot idea but less spinning.

The one thing I take exception to in the whole "make it seem like you really are on Mars" thing, is that the last thing I want to see is a bunch of tourists in a crowd in the "Space Station" yelling to their kids, etc. There are exit signs, ramps, and all kinds of real world stuff that makes the notion of being in "Space" a big let down. The Capsule you can control and make it a one on one experience. I think it is always better to try and do something more immersive without other guests polluting it, than doing something that's obviously fake and can't deliver its promise. Seabase Alpha was cool in itself, but when you pile on a ton of people it loses it's credibility and feels like a Mall. Just my opinion.

 

[hwdelien]

Seabase Alpha was cool in itself, but when you pile on a ton of people it loses it's credibility and feels like a Mall. Just my opinion.

Don't you think though, if our civilization ever evolves to the point where we have a publicly accessable Seabase or SpaceStation, it will be, in reality, a mall? :zipit: Oxygen scrubbers don't pay for themselves:lookaroun

 

[ClemsonTigger]

Main Street DLP was the toughest. 5 years of being behind because they scrapped a year of design one year in. The most satisfying project is my two kids, but they are way over budget!

...and still not near a completion date, I'm sure! :lol:

 

[ClemsonTigger]

Doesn't the fact that Pixar's success, which is based on creative ideas, and the fact that this mind set is being brought to Disney feature animation bode well for the future of WDI? It appears to me Disney has at least learned the lesson that it is the truly creative ideas that work in the end and stand the test of time.

Indeed....again looking at Eddie's pendulum

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think you underestimate the visuals. And future spacecraft likely won't have windows. (I suspect the same for cars), but rather video screens of the "outside world". Trust me, I'm not a critic of M:S. I have gotten more than my share of abuse defending it. Mainly against people who were not going to like anything that replaced Horizons. They make me as sick as those that claim M:S makes them sick. Most of them are lying.

Anyway, if WoL was converted to a mars base and a little imagination was applied (and money) the illusion could be pulled off rather well I think.

Possibly. But thank you for defending it, and although I knit pick, I too believe it is a very good show overall and many have told me that they love it. Especially kids who go on many times. TWDC decided that Sponsor funding would be the primary source of funds for this show, so that prevented it from being an entire "Pavilion" of attractions as we had hoped. Maybe someday they will use the dome as a post show of some kind.

M:S is the first show of it's kind to use extended G Forces to accurately simulate a launch. IMHO Unique. We used the same centrifuge technology used in Space flight testing for the show. To me, this was breakthrough and noble in that it was "Science fact" based and in the spirit of EPCOT. The Mars angle pushed things way out and kept it "Future World".

As for motion sickness, I think it's a Catch 22. When you put warning signs up everywhere that continually overstate the effects of the show (claustrophobia) and continually harp on it, then anxiety and tension builds in the guest prior to getting in the capsule, so the prophesy is self fulfilling to a degree. Or it's a big letdown because they expected this heavy thrill experience and it turns out to be relatively mild. But they need to be there because the lawyers say so. I was told that giving guests the choice of "spin or not", reduced the numbers down to a degree where it's not much of an issue anymore.

Like the "Mad Tea Party", anything that spins has the potential for motion sickness, only you can see the ride running from the queue and that serves as a means of self editing as many opt out before getting in line. This is a big factor. Simulators and indoor coasters have a similar issue as you can't see what you are getting into so the line does not edit itself as well. People can get off dizzy, etc. So they compensate with videos and signage to help the guest decide.

As for Horizons, I still get beat up for that as well, which is fine. I thought it had some great moments in it, especially the IMAX scene and the retro future stuff. The "pick your future" thing was poorly executed IMHO. To me, the memory of that show (like the "Peoplemover") is better than the reality of that show. The weak AA's, mash-up of scene styles, etc. However, I think it's a topic and story that sorely needs to be told at EPCOT in some way and is missed as a balanced part of Future World. But so was Space.

I wonder why the Imagination Pavilion couldn't try and do the Horizon's story as a means of "how many ways the future has been imagined?" How our Imagination fuels tomorrow's reality. Let Figment host it where he's dressed up as Jules Verne, a 50's Astronaut, etc. That seems like a great EPCOT story using the story elements of Horizons and the fun of imagination. Whatever.

BTW- I was shown guest exit surveys that gave Horizons in comparison to other shows a very low or "not even remembered" rating. To WDW management, this was a telling sign and the fact that GE was leaving and no one wanted to sponsor it made it vulnerable. A Space "thrill ride" going into that building was the criteria for which we received the assignment, (in the end, a new building was cheaper) so it wasn't like it was an option to keep it, as the labor $$ got dedicated to M:S.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

...and still not near a completion date, I'm sure! :lol:

LOL. Like their dad, they will never be completed as long as there is imagination left in the world!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Don't you think though, if our civilization ever evolves to the point where we have a publicly accessable Seabase or SpaceStation, it will be, in reality, a mall? :zipit: Oxygen scrubbers don't pay for themselves:lookaroun

Any future that relocates WalMart and Sears to the bottom of the ocean I'm all for.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Doesn't the fact that Pixar's success, which is based on creative ideas, and the fact that this mind set is being brought to Disney feature animation bode well for the future of WDI? It appears to me Disney has at least learned the lesson that it is the truly creative ideas that work in the end and stand the test of time.

YES. John Lassiter is a godsend to WDI in that corporate sees him as a visionary that makes them money. Pete Docter is a true Disney fan as well. WDI could use story help so they are a good compliment IMHO. He's spread pretty thin no doubt, but there's nothing better than a leader that loves the product. He'll make time and I've heard he has already.

The shared creativity and unique experience found in the two forces has to very good for both. We wish them well!

 

[The Conundrum]

Eddie, is it true that the "Expedition" ride for Disneyland Paris was going to be an Indiana Jones style EMV ride with Jungle Book scenes? Seems like a strange concept.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

The one thing I take exception to in the whole "make it seem like you really are on Mars" thing, is that the last thing I want to see is a bunch of tourists in a crowd in the "Space Station" yelling to their kids, etc. There are exit signs, ramps, and all kinds of real world stuff that makes the notion of being in "Space" a big let down. The Capsule you can control and make it a one on one experience. I think it is always better to try and do something more immersive without other guests polluting it, than doing something that's obviously fake and can't deliver its promise. Seabase Alpha was cool in itself, but when you pile on a ton of people it loses it's credibility and feels like a Mall. Just my opinion.

Sorry to kinda jump in here, but I really find this statement kinda interesting. Personally, I never really saw it that way as far as tourists polluting the setting that Imagineers create. I can see what you mean, but I've never thought of it as a detracting experience or one that was lacking in any way. I was always fascinated by the concept of The Living Seas and Sea Base Alpha; it actually provided me with some of the most vivid and enjoyable memories of my first visit to Epcot. At no point did it feel like a mall to me. I always thought that the process of the hydrolators being your connections to and from the outside world were one of the best allusions ever created; it really did make you think, even if it was just for a second, that you were traveling below ground level to an underwater depth.

As for a space pavilion, I would welcome it. The thing is that, yes, we all know that we aren't really in space and that the parking lot where our car is parked is right outside the door. However, one of the reasons we go to theme parks is to be in that immersive environment that takes you away from reality, even if it is by taking you from being outside and surrounding you with four walls. Space Mountain does this; it feels like you're in a space port (and hopefully after the refurb, it will feel more like that). Sea Base Alpha used to do the same thing. Point is, I've never worried about the exit signs and ramps and the family with the screaming kids from Iowa. I always know, deep down, that this is a theme park and that the real world is right outside the nearest exit. But I've always been able to leave that aside and, if the porper theming is applied, I have been able to feel like I'm somewhere else, not in the middle of Florida. For me, I'll take the suspended reality of being in a large and immersive experience anyday, even if it means having to deal with the tourists. I love it when Imagineers go for big immersive environments, and I would love to see the concept applied more.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Sorry to kinda jump in here, but I really find this statement kinda interesting. Personally, I never really saw it that way as far as tourists polluting the setting that Imagineers create. I can see what you mean, but I've never thought of it as a detracting experience or one that was lacking in any way. I was always fascinated by the concept of The Living Seas and Sea Base Alpha; it actually provided me with some of the most vivid and enjoyable memories of my first visit to Epcot. At no point did it feel like a mall to me. I always thought that the process of the hydrolators being your connections to and from the outside world were one of the best allusions ever created; it really did make you think, even if it was just for a second, that you were traveling below ground level to an underwater depth.

As for a space pavilion, I would welcome it. The thing is that, yes, we all know that we aren't really in space and that the parking lot where our car is parked is right outside the door. However, one of the reasons we go to theme parks is to be in that immersive environment that takes you away from reality, even if it is by taking you from being outside and surrounding you with four walls. Space Mountain does this; it feels like you're in a space port (and hopefully after the refurb, it will feel more like that). Sea Base Alpha used to do the same thing. Point is, I've never worried about the exit signs and ramps and the family with the screaming kids from Iowa. I always know, deep down, that this is a theme park and that the real world is right outside the nearest exit. But I've always been able to leave that aside and, if the porper theming is applied, I have been able to feel like I'm somewhere else, not in the middle of Florida. For me, I'll take the suspended reality of being in a large and immersive experience anyday, even if it means having to deal with the tourists. I love it when Imagineers go for big immersive environments, and I would love to see the concept applied more.

Fair point. I love those environments too. Especially Space Mountain, but it isn't the payoff, it sets it up which is great. Seabase Alpha (it is well done BTW) delivers in it's own way in part because it is validated by a big tank of real fish and the real divers. Space is a bit tougher and if that was the core experience instead of the ride, then it was a risk not enough of a payoff and may be too close to Seas in format. You end up weighing these things in your mind. In the end, it wasn't like we could choose for a lavish pavilion as that was already rejected. The assignment was to do a "thrill ride" based on Space for $$$ figure, so all the chips went on that bet and we pitched that show and won the funding.

To me, it is that much more compelling to be in the dark on a ride in a more or less first person experience. I just prefer it that's all. I used to love to go out to the ends of the DL Rivers of America because I don't see people and can "believe". It's the time traveler in me. You make good points and I'm glad you like those big spaces as it keeps us all employed!

 

[fyn]

To me, it is that much more compelling to be in the dark on a ride in a more or less first person experience.

Again, why Alien Encounter was genius. Your imagination fills in the gaps provided by the darkness, making the experience surreal.

 

[HMF]

Eisner was much more interested in every aspect of the company (sometimes to the detriment of projects). I don't get that from Bob. So long as Wall Street is happy with the numbers, Bob is blissfully happy (unaware?) of what his division heads are really doing ...

That's my problem with Iger. Eisner cared too much' Iger cares too little.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, is it true that the "Expedition" ride for Disneyland Paris was going to be an Indiana Jones style EMV ride with Jungle Book scenes? Seems like a strange concept.

I have no idea. Jungle Book? Yes, as described by you it is strange. Never heard of it. There was some kind of aerial coaster at one time proposed but I'm not sure of its theme beyond Adventureland.