Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

But would new towers that look like this be enough of an update for the DL Hotel? Paradise Pier seems to be a natural fit for a Del Coronado-style building; that's simple enough to see. Do you go with another Victorian building for the DL Hotel? How do you properly recreate the entire Disneyland idea in a single building/complex? Or should you even try to? The meta-theme instead of a time/place theme has not yielded impressive results so far. The floor area ratio would have to be high to meet demand... I feel like you're almost locked into the tower setup. It will be a very interesting design challenge when it's time for a new DL Hotel!

To me, glazed towers are too "real world". I want to escape to something more unique and romantic. I'd like to see them go much further when the time is right.

 

[RandySavage]

Paradise Pier seems to be a natural fit for a Del Coronado-style building; that's simple enough to see. Do you go with another Victorian building for the DL Hotel? How do you properly recreate the entire Disneyland idea in a single building/complex? Or should you even try to? The meta-theme instead of a time/place theme has not yielded impressive results so far. The floor area ratio would have to be high to meet demand... I feel like you're almost locked into the tower setup. It will be a very interesting design challenge when it's time for a new DL Hotel!

Good points. The Paradise Pier Hotel lot begs for a seaside themed backdrop, which rules out the standard "Mictorian" (Del Cor) style for the DL hotel that has been used in Paris, Hong Kong & Tokyo.

I can imagine a 8-12 story deluxe DLH in a Spanish Colonial/Mission/Southwest style - which is relevant because of the regional history. Maybe something based on Hearst Castle. Or something reminiscent of the ornate French chateaux - which connects to the styles of the castle & Fantasyland.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

To me, glazed towers are too "real world". I want to escape to something more unique and romantic. I'd like to see them go much further when the time is right.

I agree. I think the current refurb actually does a good job in going about as far as you can go with the "glass tower" idea.

We can always hope for the giant tower shaped like Mickey Mouse, right?

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=33.8071977&lon=-117.9241884&z=17&l=0&m=b

The hotel situation is much more open than I thought. The PPH and the DL Hotel are both adjacent to the Simba surface lot... there is actually a shockingly large amount of area to work with there if you're really talking about a knockdown-rebuild. There has been talk of more parking structures, so those Simba parking spaces could become expendable some day...

 

[Cosmic Commando]

If they pull off "DCA as a destination that stands on it's own" gamble, there will truly be an overnight reason to stay, perhaps even longer. Then they will be more likely to invest to completely redo the other hotels and complete the picture.

I think the DCA reboot is pretty close to a sure thing. I first visited in '07, and I enjoyed the park. This was after ToT and bug's land had been added, so the park was not at its worst, but still before the extra billion dollar makeover. It reminded me a lot of Hollywood Studios when I was there; I think WDW guests are used to accepting a park that is less than what a MK or DL would be, and enjoying it for what it is. I guess when you can walk 200 ft from the DCA turnstiles and be in Disneyland, it's hard not to compare.

I thought the attraction lineup was pretty strong before the makeover, but people just didn't like spending time in the park. It was labeled as a loser, and everyone knew it. With all of the placemaking: Buena Vista St, Paradise Pier eateries/beer garden area, Victorian update of Paradise Pier, Grizzly Peak, etc. I think people will enjoy themselves while they're not on an attraction. There has been a pretty nice string of successes since 2008 to help dispel the negative preconceptions people have about the park: Midway Mania, GlowFest/elecTRONica, World of Color, Little Mermaid, and now Carsland looming.

There has been talk of major Disneyland expansion once Carsland opens... I would not be surprised if some kind of action on the hotels were timed to open with these new attractions in a few years.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Clicktorian Resort

Over ten years ago Tony and I proposed a Grand Floridian style hotel to the East Side of the Main Entrance with the Steam Train on a trestle going over the pool (I think it began as a DLP MSUSA Hotel idea). There was a great painting done of the concept and that I do recall. Since then the idea has resurfaced in the rumor mill, but obviously never came to fruition. I remember we proposed a "Xanadu" Hearst Castle style hotel to go next to D/MGM in WDW ala Citizen Kane. Pretty much every theme you can imagine has been pitched by now, so it's a matter of which one, and of course the budget to do it. Themes that are easy to imagine (and exotic) for a guest booking on the phone are seriously considered. "What's the Polynesian like?"... "Being in Hawaii". "Perfect, book it."

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Good points. The Paradise Pier Hotel lot begs for a seaside themed backdrop, which rules out the standard "Mictorian" (Del Cor) style for the DL hotel that has been used in Paris, Hong Kong & Tokyo.

I can imagine a 8-12 story deluxe DLH in a Spanish Colonial/Mission/Southwest style - which is relevant because of the regional history. Maybe something based on Hearst Castle. Or something reminiscent of the ornate French chateaux - which connects to the styles of the castle & Fantasyland.

I always wanted to see Abbot Kinney's original vision for a "Venice in California" come to fruition. Imagine a California/Venetian styled seaside hotel behind that Pier!
http://www.westland.net/venicehistory/

 

[fngoofy]

Over ten years ago Tony and I proposed a Grand Floridian style hotel to the East Side of the Main Entrance with the Steam Train on a trestle going over the pool (I think it began as a DLP MSUSA Hotel idea). There was a great painting done of the concept and that I do recall. Since then the idea has resurfaced in the rumor mill, but obviously never came to fruition. I remember we proposed a "Xanadu" Hearst Castle style hotel to go next to D/MGM in WDW ala Citizen Kane. Pretty much every theme you can imagine has been pitched by now, so it's a matter of which one, and of course the budget to do it. Themes that are easy to imagine (and exotic) for a guest booking on the phone are seriously considered. "What's the Polynesian like?"... "Being in Hawaii". "Perfect, book it."

Speaking of resort styles and the Polynesian, I read a rumor over at Tikiman the other day saying there's a chance in the future the Polynesian would be re-imagined into a version of Aulani.

What do you think the odds are of that happening and how do you think it would be received compared to what we have now at the Polynesian?

 

[MarkTwain]

I agree. I think the current refurb actually does a good job in going about as far as you can go with the "glass tower" idea.

We can always hope for the giant tower shaped like Mickey Mouse, right?

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=33.8071977&lon=-117.9241884&z=17&l=0&m=b

You mean this one? No offense but I always found that idea laughable... the idea that just because a building's exterior is shaped like Mickey Mouse, it becomes "Disney" seemed very strange to me. I much prefer Disney's current style of theming after places.

Eddie, that reminds me of something I've been thinking about for a long time. I remembering reading about how during the EuroDisney project, Eisner brought in world-famous modern and postmodern architects to come up with hotel designs for the resort - Rem Koolhaas, Robert Venturi, Jean Nouvel, and others were involved. Disneyandmore shows several of the designs, but I think I remember reading about even more. Anyway, most of the hotels seemed to be like contemporary modern and postmodern buildings, but with integrated Disney motifs. I always thought it was strange that despite being the greatest architectural thinkers of our time, these figures just didn't "get" Disney design, i.e. what we think of as Imagineering. Or perhaps they thought they were making some architectural statement, were trying to bring Disney into modern architectural age, etc. What do you think of this kind of design, Eddie? Is this kind of thing appropriate for a Disney resort, or were these guys way off the mark?

Another example of this might be comparing the Gehry-deigned Disney Village at Paris, vs. the remains of the Disney Village (now Downtown Disney Marketplace) at Orlando. To me the quaint, unified look of Orlando's Village is far more successful than Gehry's modernized "statement"... but that's just my opinion.

Some modern architects have been shown to get Disney design, though - the Boardwalk was designed by Robert Stern, and the Wilderness Lodge by Peter Dominick, and I would consider both as masterpieces of Imagineering.

Over ten years ago Tony and I proposed a Grand Floridian style hotel to the East Side of the Main Entrance with the Steam Train on a trestle going over the pool (I think it began as a DLP MSUSA Hotel idea). There was a great painting done of the concept and that I do recall. Since then the idea has resurfaced in the rumor mill, but obviously never came to fruition. I remember we proposed a "Xanadu" Hearst Castle style hotel to go next to D/MGM in WDW ala Citizen Kane. Pretty much every theme you can imagine has been pitched by now, so it's a matter of which one, and of course the budget to do it. Themes that are easy to imagine (and exotic) for a guest booking on the phone are seriously considered. "What's the Polynesian like?"... "Being in Hawaii". "Perfect, book it."

I've always thought it surprising that DHS didn't get its own hotel - it's the only WDW park without one! And to me its theme of Hollywood glitz and glamor would match perfectly for a deluxe hotel of its own.

I've always thought that the huge "Christmas tree lot" at Disneyland would be a great spot for a streamline-moderne Hollywood-themed hotel, with all the art deco trimmings. Maybe have a more old-fashioned Hollywood side facing DCA's Hollywood backlot, and have the more streamline modern side facing Disneyland's Tomorrowland. That way the hotel could offer views of both parks. Maybe the hotel could even act as a grand entry for the resort on Harbor Blvd, with a lobby you could pass through to get between the Esplanade and "outside world," kind of like the Disneyland Hotel at Paris.

EDIT: Kind of like the Hollywood Hotel at Tokyo Disneyland? :lol:

 

[RandySavage]

^I'll be interested in seeing Eddie's response to that.

I would have loved to see how a Stern or Dominick would have tackled Hotel New York in Paris. Dominick (and Stern to a lesser degree) was clearly more capable/interested in evoking an established historic style rather than putting his own "starchitect" stamp on things.

In the latter category you have a post-modernist like Michael Graves. I sort of like Graves' Dolphin & Swan on their own (I don't like their location... visible from within Epcot), but I was really disappointed with his work at DLP (Hotel New York). I've lived and continue to spend a lot of time in NYC and love its rich architectural history. New York deserves a hotel representative of the lower-rise classics like now gone Hotel Astor or The Plaza, done as artfully as possible (i.e. not New York New York in Vegas). Graves' post-modern take is pretty weak - evoking a trendy 1980s suburban Connecticut office park more than the Mythic New York that Europeans love.

It seems to me that Imagineering's internal designers & architects are the ones best suited to creating great themed hotels. I believe imagineer Ahmad Jafari designed the Hotel MiraCosta... they don't get any better than that.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

You mean this one? No offense but I always found that idea laughable... the idea that just because a building's exterior is shaped like Mickey Mouse, it becomes "Disney" seemed very strange to me. I much prefer Disney's current style of theming after places.

According to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, Eisner actually wanted a gigantic Mickey building straddling the street. Not the tri-circle Mickey head, but a full-bodied one. Just think, you would have been able to request "Mickey's butt, Disneyland view"! Don't worry, I don't think anyone but Eisner would ever think it was a good idea.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Speaking of resort styles and the Polynesian, I read a rumor over at Tikiman the other day saying there's a chance in the future the Polynesian would be re-imagined into a version of Aulani.

What do you think the odds are of that happening and how do you think it would be received compared to what we have now at the Polynesian?

I think the poly is good 70's Tiki, so i'm not sure what the Aulani would do to improve that other than adding an amazing pool. If it's adding high rises, then no.

 

[fngoofy]

I think the poly is good 70's Tiki, so i'm not sure what the Aulani would do to improve that other than adding an amazing pool. If it's adding high rises, then no.

I gotta think its all about capacity.
Rumor is that the GCH is in need of large scale repairs and that when its time comes it may be the time to re-imagine.

I agree with you that it is good 70's Tiki, (but is there really any other kind of good Tiki ;-)

I am disappointed with Aulani because it seems to be lazy design. The lobby looks to be a clone of Animal Kingdom Lodge and the high rises are not Hawaiian at all. I agree the pool/adventure area is nice, but if you've been to the Hyatt on Kauai, they have just as an amazing pool setup, sans the rock work.

IMHO Polynesian/Hawaiian/Tiki necessitates one-three story buildings, and rambling grounds that are thick with vegetation (all the better if you can't tell when you are inside or outside.) Toss in some dark wood, some bamboo, and slack key guitar and we're ready for a mai tai, or two (well maybe three.)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I gotta think its all about capacity.
Rumor is that the GCH is in need of large scale repairs and that when its time comes it may be the time to re-imagine.

I agree with you that it is good 70's Tiki, (but is there really any other kind of good Tiki ;-)

I am disappointed with Aulani because it seems to be lazy design. The lobby looks to be a clone of Animal Kingdom Lodge and the high rises are not Hawaiian at all. I agree the pool/adventure area is nice, but if you've been to the Hyatt on Kauai, they have just as an amazing pool setup, sans the rock work.

IMHO Polynesian/Hawaiian/Tiki necessitates one-three story buildings, and rambling grounds that are thick with vegetation (all the better if you can't tell when you are inside or outside.) Toss in some dark wood, some bamboo, and slack key guitar and we're ready for a mai tai, or two (well maybe three.)

4 Seasons on the Big island Is fantastic. The landscape was designed by an Imagineer as well.

 

[flavious27]

To me, glazed towers are too "real world". I want to escape to something more unique and romantic. I'd like to see them go much further when the time is right.

It is real world but they could do alot with it though. They could incorporate led lighting into the exterior and do what they do with the Cira Centre in Philly.

Or the Yas Marina Hotel. A 10 storyish screen can have lots of potential for a disney hotel. it is kind of real world but not that much so with this being a new tech and building technique.

My opinion: Any attempt to make the DL Hotel look modern (which is what is happening to the towers right now and has happened in the past) is just going to make it look more awkward & dated (i.e. worse) as time moves on. I understand from a business perspective why Disney won't close down the hotel for 18-24 months to build a fitting flagship resort from scratch, but it's a shame the complex will remain ugly, boring and mediocre for many years to come.

Even worse is the Paradise Pier Hotel (a commie-block of a building with its windowless sides) because it looms over the ostensibly victorian Paradise Pier and is fully visible from within the park - obliterating any sense/illusion that one is in a turn-of-the-century boardwalk. I noticed the new Paradise Garden colors play off the hotel, which is a bit of a salve, but can't erase the fact that the building is among the ugliest, cheapest designs in hotel history - it's as bad as any 1970s Jersey Turnpike motor lodge (with some yellow waves slapped on the roof to make it "themed"), as is the DL hotel.

The one bright note among DLR's hotels is that when I first experienced the Grand Californian two months ago, I found it to be much more impressive in than it looked in photographs - mainly because the high quality natural materials (stones and timbers) that don't come through in pics.

There are many incredible historical hotels & resorts, like the Mission Inn, that could inspire a fitting Disneyland Hotel: The Biltmore, The Royal Hawaiian, The Quinta Real in Monterrey, The Del Monte, The Broadmoor, The La Fonta... all beauties that Disney could bend into its own flagship hotel, just as it took the Del Coronado and turned it into the Grand Floridian or the Old Faithful Inn into the Wilderness Lodge.

I don't don't, I think it matter how they make it look modern. the blue tinted windows they added kind of date it even more. there is a way that a building can be built and not have it look like when it was built. that is part of what makes great architecture, that a building's look is timeless. this is just a 10 storyish hotel in Anaheim but it is also in an area where the look is suppose to matter.

You nailed it with the pac hotel, that just sticks out more because a theme park is in its shadow. it will be very difficult to have that hotel match the theme of the land in its presence. there are examples of different hotel towers that were built in the pre casino ear of atlantic city, but disney would need to close the hotel to add the architectural features to have the hotel's look match.

But would new towers that look like this be enough of an update for the DL Hotel? Paradise Pier seems to be a natural fit for a Del Coronado-style building; that's simple enough to see. Do you go with another Victorian building for the DL Hotel? How do you properly recreate the entire Disneyland idea in a single building/complex? Or should you even try to? The meta-theme instead of a time/place theme has not yielded impressive results so far. The floor area ratio would have to be high to meet demand... I feel like you're almost locked into the tower setup. It will be a very interesting design challenge when it's time for a new DL Hotel!

Well this would be an idea of how to use the current buildings instead of demoing them. it would involve physically connecting all three towers and then adding this new skin to them.

If it was a full on demo and start from new, I see them doing the grand flordian / disneyland hotel paris thing. I doubt thou that they will take 1000 rooms out of commission for 2 years or so to do that. If they were going to get serious about any real changes with the hotel, they would have started the project before dca got its makeover.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Matt on Knott's

I'd rather do the ultimate "Knott's Resort" at the farm with Matt Ouimet! Good news that he will be looking into the future of the coolest non Disney thing on the planet.


It's just how I have always felt about the farm. Imagine your next door neighbor, whomever that is, setting up a fruit stand in their yard and becoming so successful they started adding stuff one thing at a time with no experience in how to do anything. That is the magic of Knott's, it's a block party of eccentricity. it's one mans dream with less capital and no media outreach.
Walter Knott achieved things with so much less than Disney and did it very well. A sharecropper with a desire to remind us of our past and how those sacrifices paved the way to what we take for granted. We can't see the excess through the wifi. Read his Ghost Town News articles about being blessed and an entrepreneur. He wanted to tell everyone in town that he made it, so they could do it too. Knott's was an original and Matt might embrace that. It should be the art film of the cedar fair mix of B movies.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

TDS iPad App.

I'm not sure if there are any TDS fans out there, but if you are like me, you never get tired of looking at that smoldering Caldera. Alain Littaye has done something about that by creating a TDS HD Wallpaper App for your iPhone or iPad. If you have read his blog "Disney and More", it occasionally features his photography which is always stunning. He did the Hi Rez imagery here and it's equally good. Worth checking out and has cool night shots too.

My only quibble is that they keep saying that TDS is "the most beautiful theme park in the world". Where is Alain's French pride? (He cowrote the book on DLP)

Alain...just between us...
DLP is the fairest of them all!

Decide for yourself. Well done App.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tds-wallpapers-hd/id441544704?mt=8

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There is a very good article on the evolution of themed shopping malls today. Sam takes us through John Hench's design process.

http://micechat.com/blogs/samland/3018-its-mall-world-after-all.html

Believe it or not, my concept studio at WDI developed the concept for the "Hollywood and Highland" Mall when it was a Disney project. It's final execution is a far cry from what we had designed. the backstory to that project has lots of twists and turns. Sam does not know the real reason why the "Intolerance" set was chosen as the "weenie" of that project.

 

[loaloa]

I'm not sure if there are any TDS fans out there, but if you are like me, you never get tired of looking at that smoldering Caldera. Alain Littaye has done something about that by creating a TDS HD Wallpaper App for your iPhone or iPad. If you have read his blog "Disney and More", it occasionally features his photography which is always stunning. He did the Hi Rez imagery here and it's equally good. Worth checking out and has cool night shots too.

My only quibble is that they keep saying that TDS is "the most beautiful theme park in the world". Where is Alain's French pride? (He cowrote the book on DLP)

Alain...just between us...
DLP is the fairest of them all!

Decide for yourself. Well done App.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tds-wallpapers-hd/id441544704?mt=8

Thanks for the post, Eddie. Of course DLP is the most beautiful Magic Kingdom in the world or, as you've said, the fairest of them all ( well, as long as DLP management don't forget the maintenance ) but Tokyo Disney Sea is really impressive in terms of theming and on this point it would be hard to say which one is better than the other. Personnally i think that DLP and TDS are the most beautiful themed parks in the world. However, for my TDS app i needed to "hook" the reader who eventually didn't knew Tokyo Disney Sea, that's why i wrote that..which doesn't mean that i believe it at 100%!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I am disappointed with Aulani because it seems to be lazy design. The lobby looks to be a clone of Animal Kingdom Lodge and the high rises are not Hawaiian at all. I agree the pool/adventure area is nice, but if you've been to the Hyatt on Kauai, they have just as an amazing pool setup, sans the rock work.

IMHO Polynesian/Hawaiian/Tiki necessitates one-three story buildings, and rambling grounds that are thick with vegetation (all the better if you can't tell when you are inside or outside.) Toss in some dark wood, some bamboo, and slack key guitar and we're ready for a mai tai, or two (well maybe three.)

I guess the business model necessitates a high rise, but I'm with you that there is a different feel to lower buildings. I have to admit that the execution looks very Marriott-esque. I know the Four Seasons on Hawaii is a higher priced hotel, but is a good lesson in blending culture and resort. http://www.fourseasons.com/hualalai/photos_and_videos/

I think Paul Comstock, who was the landscape designer on DAK worked on that project to integrate sacred areas with public ones. It's beautiful and does not have the faux urban feel you get from dressing up office towers with steel logs. Lots of lava rock walls and a cultural center inside. Low Key but highlighting nature with a stocked Salt Water snorkel pool.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the post, Eddie. Of course DLP is the most beautiful Magic Kingdom in the world or, as you've said, the fairest of them all ( well, as long as DLP management don't forget the maintenance ) but Tokyo Disney Sea is really impressive in terms of theming and on this point it would be hard to say which one is better than the other. Personnally i think that DLP and TDS are the most beautiful themed parks in the world. However, for my TDS app i needed to "hook" the reader who eventually didn't knew Tokyo Disney Sea, that's why i wrote that..which doesn't mean that i believe it at 100%!

Well, I'm just giving you a hard time and it's nice to know that you have some love for the 20 year old DLP. I want to see the DLP App, but I want the area music running with screensavers. I'm VERY biased on DLP (and not objective at all) and I'd agree with you that the most painful thing is the lack of upkeep in the park. Throwing the entire Pirate Ship away is a crime and was avoidable. Of course, TDS is even grander (and more photogenic with that volcano) but I will never admit that.