EpcoTim
Well-Known Member
If you say so, you're the expert round here.
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks
- Thread starter hpyhnt 1000
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If you say so, you're the expert round here.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Well, I'LL be there...
But seriously...I think it's something they NEED to do. Whenever they do a Anniversary, people tend to get excited. I remember HCOE was HUGE for them and attendance.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Cycling
Well, I don't want to give you the impression that there is a hard and fast rule book for this, but in general terms, there is a process of strategic planning based on many factors, (like past attendance patterns) that dictates how often something new gets added and what kind of something it will be.
The short answer is- each park has it's own needs and patterns that have to be respected.
The longer explantation as to what were talking about.
When I was at Knott's, if you added a new Coaster for example (high teen appeal, low cost), the incremental attendance (people that came just for that ride or above normal for that year) bump would usually last about 18 months before it would slowly fall off and you'd need something else lined up. In the Case of Pooh at TDL, the popularity never fell off and hung in there for many years. So anything can happen. So you need to measure those results.
Over time, theme parks could quantify how well an attraction or even a live show did by measuring attendance, doing surveys, merchandise sales, etc. This sometimes puts the park's Entertainment Department in competition with it's Design Department for dollars.
The management team uses data to compare how much mounting a new Parade or Fireworks Show will do versus adding a new "E" of greater cost. Generally speaking, the "E" is a lasting investment that adds to the long term draw of the park (harder to measure) but the shows bring them in faster and cheaper, but costs more to operate. "Fantasmic!" or the "MS Electrical Parade" are rare examples of how an event becomes a franchise in itself and the investment in the infrastructure (permanent theater) to keep running it rivals an E Attraction over the years. So you can see how this valuable data could get "spun" one way or another to get a project funded (we all know that never happens) and the Marketing Dept. ultimately weighs in as to if the idea itself will "sell" or not (movie or character based shows), or if it fits milestone "anniversary" dates that are slated to be hyped. Can be very subjective, internal politics, indian uprisings, pathos, and finally the CEO makes the final decision.
I'm just giving you the "old school" 1980 kind of rationale. I have no idea how they do things at WDW today. Data gathering and feedback today is far more sophisticated and called CRM (Customer Relationship Management). Today parks use a variety of tools to determine what goes in and how often. "Guest Satisfaction" or CRM surveys even help inform how to adjust the amount of time Attractions and even Shops are open during the day, having fireworks or not, etc. in an effort to bump up or maintain a positive score till it hits a "strong desire to return" level. Many Casinos/Parks do something along this line.
Another factor is locals versus tourists (they spend and are satisfied differently), and in a place like WDW, you have to think about hotels and overnight stays. (DL hosts a majority of AP's and locals with tourists being a smaller fraction, WDW was the opposite).
Imagine having only so much money to invest each year, the upkeep eats at that, and then you look globally at the multi-day hotel demand and that most guests who may come every seven years have forgotten what the attractions were anyway, and they are coming for the overall quantity of experience of Walt Disney World not just one element. Very different "cycles" than say Universal (different priorities, like prying guests off property).
I'd venture to say that WDW has lots of things to weigh and of course the economy overseas is a big factor as those people come and spend alot. If the UK is hurting, I'm sure Orlando feels that to some extent. Or if Uni grabs market share, then they will locally react. From what I can see, WDW tries to keep you on the property and entices you to never leave so you have no desire to see Universal, or it's costly to do so. If you have prepaid all your meals, and booked Cirque show, and a bunch of other things a year in advance, and came on a free bus, only then to see the Harry Potter billboards, then it's harder to head off the property. If they do that well enough and guests are distracted, WDW may not need to add as much.
I have no inside info and may be wrong. But basically, each park is different and their master plans are laid out years in advance and usually change alot with the times. True of most theme parks.
Well, I don't want to give you the impression that there is a hard and fast rule book for this, but in general terms, there is a process of strategic planning based on many factors, (like past attendance patterns) that dictates how often something new gets added and what kind of something it will be.
The short answer is- each park has it's own needs and patterns that have to be respected.
The longer explantation as to what were talking about.
When I was at Knott's, if you added a new Coaster for example (high teen appeal, low cost), the incremental attendance (people that came just for that ride or above normal for that year) bump would usually last about 18 months before it would slowly fall off and you'd need something else lined up. In the Case of Pooh at TDL, the popularity never fell off and hung in there for many years. So anything can happen. So you need to measure those results.
Over time, theme parks could quantify how well an attraction or even a live show did by measuring attendance, doing surveys, merchandise sales, etc. This sometimes puts the park's Entertainment Department in competition with it's Design Department for dollars.
The management team uses data to compare how much mounting a new Parade or Fireworks Show will do versus adding a new "E" of greater cost. Generally speaking, the "E" is a lasting investment that adds to the long term draw of the park (harder to measure) but the shows bring them in faster and cheaper, but costs more to operate. "Fantasmic!" or the "MS Electrical Parade" are rare examples of how an event becomes a franchise in itself and the investment in the infrastructure (permanent theater) to keep running it rivals an E Attraction over the years. So you can see how this valuable data could get "spun" one way or another to get a project funded (we all know that never happens) and the Marketing Dept. ultimately weighs in as to if the idea itself will "sell" or not (movie or character based shows), or if it fits milestone "anniversary" dates that are slated to be hyped. Can be very subjective, internal politics, indian uprisings, pathos, and finally the CEO makes the final decision.
I'm just giving you the "old school" 1980 kind of rationale. I have no idea how they do things at WDW today. Data gathering and feedback today is far more sophisticated and called CRM (Customer Relationship Management). Today parks use a variety of tools to determine what goes in and how often. "Guest Satisfaction" or CRM surveys even help inform how to adjust the amount of time Attractions and even Shops are open during the day, having fireworks or not, etc. in an effort to bump up or maintain a positive score till it hits a "strong desire to return" level. Many Casinos/Parks do something along this line.
Another factor is locals versus tourists (they spend and are satisfied differently), and in a place like WDW, you have to think about hotels and overnight stays. (DL hosts a majority of AP's and locals with tourists being a smaller fraction, WDW was the opposite).
Imagine having only so much money to invest each year, the upkeep eats at that, and then you look globally at the multi-day hotel demand and that most guests who may come every seven years have forgotten what the attractions were anyway, and they are coming for the overall quantity of experience of Walt Disney World not just one element. Very different "cycles" than say Universal (different priorities, like prying guests off property).
I'd venture to say that WDW has lots of things to weigh and of course the economy overseas is a big factor as those people come and spend alot. If the UK is hurting, I'm sure Orlando feels that to some extent. Or if Uni grabs market share, then they will locally react. From what I can see, WDW tries to keep you on the property and entices you to never leave so you have no desire to see Universal, or it's costly to do so. If you have prepaid all your meals, and booked Cirque show, and a bunch of other things a year in advance, and came on a free bus, only then to see the Harry Potter billboards, then it's harder to head off the property. If they do that well enough and guests are distracted, WDW may not need to add as much.
I have no inside info and may be wrong. But basically, each park is different and their master plans are laid out years in advance and usually change alot with the times. True of most theme parks.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Ah...Very, very interesting, Eddie. Didn't suspect it was so in depth.:lol:
So...I guess we root for Harry Potter to do REALLY, really well?
:lol::lol:
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
Basically it sounds like the speculation around DCA's makeover affecting WDW was correct. However, you could argue that prior to the DCA makeover, WDW was in a cycle of adding major additions (Soarin', Mission: Space, Toy Story Mania, and Expedition Everest in a 5 year window). With Toy Story being the last major addition in spring of 08, it's not out of the realm of possibility that we don't see a major addition for 5 years. There was an article not long ago where Disney/Jay Rasulo had done studies to show that WDW can go 5 years without a major addition.
So my guess is that from 08-13 we see refurbishments to Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Fantasyland, Star Tours and possibly a few others. If we get a major addition during that time, it seems that the likeliest thing is the Monster's Inc coaster. I'm guessing anything else (Little Mermaid, Mysterious Island, Epcot additions, etc) won't be until 2013 or so.
So my guess is that from 08-13 we see refurbishments to Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Fantasyland, Star Tours and possibly a few others. If we get a major addition during that time, it seems that the likeliest thing is the Monster's Inc coaster. I'm guessing anything else (Little Mermaid, Mysterious Island, Epcot additions, etc) won't be until 2013 or so.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
This sounds about right to me. And frankly, if all the refurbishments go well in the meantime... I'm quite fine with it. Renew the parks before you add stuff to them.
The Conundrum
New Member
Gotcha. I was hoping for 2011 and the 40th, though.
I still don't belive they can write that ALL off...
I told ya but you wouldnt believe me.
Want them to celebrate the 40th.? Stop giving them your hard earned cash until they get there act together.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
I don't believe they won't do ANYthing...But it will be less than what was expected...:wave:
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Where Ideas come from. True story
This memory just came back to me from the depths. It must have shoved it's way past acres of dead brain cells like a football player weaving through Zombies. Here goes as I recall it.
I was likely a teen at the Disney Stockholder's meeting (late seventies?) and my friend was having a hushed conversation with another fan. That fan was excited to hear that the president Card Walker (maybe Donn Tatum) was there and was going to approach him (either through another person or privately) about not abandoning the original vision of EPCOT and that if not being a real city, guests could at least stay there. I seem to recall he had a sketch in hand. I'm not sure if anything actually transpired. I hope I got this right, will follow up and confirm.
That young fan I was introduced to was to later become my good friend, Imagineer Tom Morris! As a young fan (called myself a "Disnetologist" till the WDP lawyers wrote me at age 12 for using the WDW font on my own letterhead at home!) those meetings were one of the only ways to meet other fans and share info. No NFFC or web. Very special back then. Tom ended up becoming the designer of the "Dream Machine" for Tony's Imagination pavilion. Morris has gone on to do many huge things like HKDL. So I'm sure my suggestions here were in some way "channeling" that day with Tom! Just thought I'd toss that out.
This memory just came back to me from the depths. It must have shoved it's way past acres of dead brain cells like a football player weaving through Zombies. Here goes as I recall it.
I was likely a teen at the Disney Stockholder's meeting (late seventies?) and my friend was having a hushed conversation with another fan. That fan was excited to hear that the president Card Walker (maybe Donn Tatum) was there and was going to approach him (either through another person or privately) about not abandoning the original vision of EPCOT and that if not being a real city, guests could at least stay there. I seem to recall he had a sketch in hand. I'm not sure if anything actually transpired. I hope I got this right, will follow up and confirm.
That young fan I was introduced to was to later become my good friend, Imagineer Tom Morris! As a young fan (called myself a "Disnetologist" till the WDP lawyers wrote me at age 12 for using the WDW font on my own letterhead at home!) those meetings were one of the only ways to meet other fans and share info. No NFFC or web. Very special back then. Tom ended up becoming the designer of the "Dream Machine" for Tony's Imagination pavilion. Morris has gone on to do many huge things like HKDL. So I'm sure my suggestions here were in some way "channeling" that day with Tom! Just thought I'd toss that out.
Lee
Adventurer
Just want to chime in here with another bit of priase for the Disneyland JC boathouse, and really that version of the JC in general.
I was flipping through my copy of the "World Famous Jungle Cruise Survival Guide" from that first year after it opened with the new boathouse/theme.
Brilliant! Setting the ride in 1938, incorporating Indy in the speil, the upstairs show scenes in the boathouse, giving the skippers a choice of "characters" to play, creating a backstory for the Jungle Navigation Company....it all just blows me away.
Very well done, and is the best job of tying a land together I can think of.
Now...if they could do something with that mish-mash of theme they call Adventureland at MK.
I was flipping through my copy of the "World Famous Jungle Cruise Survival Guide" from that first year after it opened with the new boathouse/theme.
Brilliant! Setting the ride in 1938, incorporating Indy in the speil, the upstairs show scenes in the boathouse, giving the skippers a choice of "characters" to play, creating a backstory for the Jungle Navigation Company....it all just blows me away.
Very well done, and is the best job of tying a land together I can think of.
Now...if they could do something with that mish-mash of theme they call Adventureland at MK.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Heh! That's awesome...Pretty fateful that you met.
It's very interesting that you mention this. A lot of people seem to ignore this fact, and how it changes things considerably when talking about DL vs WDW offerings.
We've been discussing at length on another thread why WDW are so concerned about closing attractions such as the Mansion for the Nightmare overlay, and yet DL are happy to do so each year. The rational is that DL being comprised of locals and APs understand the closure is neccessary and enjoy the end result. Whereas at WDW, the visitor base are tourists on an average 2 year cycle and expect to have everything open when they are there.
GothMickey
Active Member
Give a nod to jt then??? :lookaroun
GothMickey
Active Member
Steve I am going to give you props my man. You are truly putting the naysayers to shame. :sohappy:
jt04
Well-Known Member
GothMickey
Active Member
No problem, but I am still not giving you all the props yet. :lol:
jt04
Well-Known Member
Give it time. :xmas:
The Conundrum
New Member
Just want to chime in here with another bit of priase for the Disneyland JC boathouse, and really that version of the JC in general.
I was flipping through my copy of the "World Famous Jungle Cruise Survival Guide" from that first year after it opened with the new boathouse/theme.
Brilliant! Setting the ride in 1938, incorporating Indy in the speil, the upstairs show scenes in the boathouse, giving the skippers a choice of "characters" to play, creating a backstory for the Jungle Navigation Company....it all just blows me away.
Very well done, and is the best job of tying a land together I can think of.
Now...if they could do something with that mish-mash of theme they call Adventureland at MK.
I'm just glad they saved the Tucan
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Just want to chime in here with another bit of priase for the Disneyland JC boathouse, and really that version of the JC in general.
I was flipping through my copy of the "World Famous Jungle Cruise Survival Guide" from that first year after it opened with the new boathouse/theme.
Brilliant! Setting the ride in 1938, incorporating Indy in the speil, the upstairs show scenes in the boathouse, giving the skippers a choice of "characters" to play, creating a backstory for the Jungle Navigation Company....it all just blows me away.
Very well done, and is the best job of tying a land together I can think of.
Now...if they could do something with that mish-mash of theme they call Adventureland at MK.
We have our AC refferences...:shrug:
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