Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[lazyboy97o]

However, theming really comes down to personal taste, just like architecture.

Pretty much everything comes down to taste. What I really have an issue with is what I see as a confusion regarding "theming". It is my view that "theming" breaks down into the two general categories of themed experience and themed decor.

Themed experience is when everything about the space is intended to create the experience of some place, being it real or imaginary. Even with its "cutting edge" construction process, the Polynesian Village still intended to create the feeling of being in Polynesia. The foliage, colors, decor items, shapes, materials all work towards this. It is not a standard hotel with some tiki torches and pictures of Polynesia in the rooms and on the bedding.

Themed decor is when the decoration and ornament in a space is intended to evoke a thought about something. Pop Century has buildings that are ultimately all the same, the rooms just have different bedding and photographs, Cast Member costumes do not evoke any of the decades being celebrated. The hotel it a contemporary space with decorative items from or reminiscent of the second half of the 20th century. It is not an attempt to allow people walk into each of the represented decades, there is no 50s chrome or 70s earth tones, no Cast Members dressed neon or like a hippie.

My opinion is that Disney's best, most memorable and even most successful endeavors have been of the themed experience variety. I would okay with the Transportation and Ticket Center trying to evoke an experience of so other place and its transportation system and ticket procuring processes, but I do think it would be dishonest towards the intentions of the place. It seems more and more people, including fans, are okay or even enthusiastic with Disney just doing intricate decorations that are just that, decorations. To each their own, but to me it just seems like the easy way out and it saddens me to see the pioneers of themed experience just not bother. I guess I am also confused as to why people celebrate getting more in the vein of the Value Resorts instead of more in the vein of the Deluxe Resorts. That said, the opportunity to "Wow!" me with themed decor does exist, I do not discount it as some sort of impossibility, but as of now I find themed experiences to be superior.

And possibly, just possibly, the story they decide to tell would be that of entering the world of Disney characters, in which case they may decide to go with the character infused toony post-modern aesthetic that we've seen. Ultimately it's their choice, and I would hope they would reconsider.

If that were the case, I would say go all out and make it a real character experience. ToonTown is no longer represented, and never really was, at Walt Disney World, so why not do a transit center that fits in the world of the characters?

 

[doppelv]

It seems more and more people, including fans, are okay or even enthusiastic with Disney just doing intricate decorations that are just that, decorations. To each their own, but to me it just seems like the easy way out and it saddens me to see the pioneers of themed experience just not bother. I guess I am also confused as to why people celebrate getting more in the vein of the Value Resorts instead of more in the vein of the Deluxe Resorts. That said, the opportunity to "Wow!" me with themed decor does exist, I do not discount it as some sort of impossibility, but as of now I find themed experiences to be superior.

I think you're right. I realize that I broke off on another tangent on my last post, I was referring to architectural styles and not themes. I agree with your definition of what constitutes theme, what is happening at the All-Stars and the new Art of Animation Resort is, for sure, themed decor. I think part of whats going on that damages the reputation of themed architecture in the sense that you describe it is that when it is done, it always comes with some other form of "baggage", namely DVC. It seems like unless its a DVC project, its going to be predominantly themed decor.

Part of that too is its hard to justify the expense of a deluxe resort level themed experience when the economy is so bad, but I think thats a trend for architectural projects in general. In Disney's defense, its easy to go all out on a well themed construct when you have a solid, steady source of income to pay for it.

 

[StageFrenzy]

I think the Parking lot, trams and TTC are vital steps towards the Magic Kingdom and resorts. It builds suspense and is the preshow to the main film. If Disney is able to give the lots and buildings a make-over i think it could plus the experience. I know the Magic Kingdom has a special entrance through the tunnels but why can't the TTC be something special as well. The Monorails i think enter into the discussion at this point. The Monorails are looking and smelling a little worn these days, things are not as tight as they used to be. Cosmetic issues like loose and worn doors, Teal seats and pink trim (barf, being a Floridian every time i see those two colors together i have a physical convulsion). I am not saying we necessarily need new trains (we do) but a really good overhaul would be nice. The 11 monorails will be overtaxed for the next couple months so I know they will be stretched thin until maroon/peach comes back online. When it does it would be nice if they took each train off and refurbed inside and out so they will last 10 more years until 2021 when we should get new trains for the 50th. Back to the TTC, reading what everyone else said about the style and decor, a entrance that incorporates the different lands of the Magic Kingdom as well the resorts came to mind as something different.

 

[flavious27]

I think you're right. I realize that I broke off on another tangent on my last post, I was referring to architectural styles and not themes. I agree with your definition of what constitutes theme, what is happening at the All-Stars and the new Art of Animation Resort is, for sure, themed decor. I think part of whats going on that damages the reputation of themed architecture in the sense that you describe it is that when it is done, it always comes with some other form of "baggage", namely DVC. It seems like unless its a DVC project, its going to be predominantly themed decor.

Part of that too is its hard to justify the expense of a deluxe resort level themed experience when the economy is so bad, but I think thats a trend for architectural projects in general. In Disney's defense, its easy to go all out on a well themed construct when you have a solid, steady source of income to pay for it.

Except that none of the resorts on property have had DVC built with them or were designed to have DVC added.

 

[flavious27]

I think the Parking lot, trams and TTC are vital steps towards the Magic Kingdom and resorts. It builds suspense and is the preshow to the main film. If Disney is able to give the lots and buildings a make-over i think it could plus the experience. I know the Magic Kingdom has a special entrance through the tunnels but why can't the TTC be something special as well. The Monorails i think enter into the discussion at this point. The Monorails are looking and smelling a little worn these days, things are not as tight as they used to be. Cosmetic issues like loose and worn doors, Teal seats and pink trim (barf, being a Floridian every time i see those two colors together i have a physical convulsion). I am not saying we necessarily need new trains (we do) but a really good overhaul would be nice. The 11 monorails will be overtaxed for the next couple months so I know they will be stretched thin until maroon/peach comes back online. When it does it would be nice if they took each train off and refurbed inside and out so they will last 10 more years until 2021 when we should get new trains for the 50th. Back to the TTC, reading what everyone else said about the style and decor, a entrance that incorporates the different lands of the Magic Kingdom as well the resorts came to mind as something different.

I think that this generation of monorails has reached the end of its lifecycle and disney needs to go back to the drawing board. I like how the monorails at dlt are continuous and also have the hanging handhold; the lighting effects of the new mark vii are cool.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Part of that too is its hard to justify the expense of a deluxe resort level themed experience when the economy is so bad, but I think thats a trend for architectural projects in general. In Disney's defense, its easy to go all out on a well themed construct when you have a solid, steady source of income to pay for it.

I think the bigger problem is pricing and how Disney now markets their resort properties. The focus of a modern Walt Disney World experience is primarily on the parks. How does a Deluxe accommodation help the average guest in hitting the parks? Disney over the years has made the Resorts as a place to sleep, get bus service and Extra Magic Hours. All achieved at a Value Resort.

I have personally stopped staying on property.

Except that none of the resorts on property have had DVC built with them or were designed to have DVC added.

Plenty of places have been expanded through additions. My only problem with the Disney's Vacation Club additions is that visual and physical separation seems to be a conscious goal.

I think that this generation of monorails has reached the end of its lifecycle and disney needs to go back to the drawing board. I like how the monorails at dlt are continuous and also have the hanging handhold; the lighting effects of the new mark vii are cool.

The Mark VIIs reuse the Mark III chassis and the Mark V bodies. No reason the Mark VIs cannot be upgraded, which they have been. Though I do agree that the interior styling does look a little dated.

 

[flavious27]

Plenty of places have been expanded through additions. My only problem with the Disney's Vacation Club additions is that visual and physical separation seems to be a conscious goal.


The Mark VIIs reuse the Mark III chassis and the Mark V bodies. No reason the Mark VIs cannot be upgraded, which they have been. Though I do agree that the interior styling does look a little dated.

I think disney does what they can to make the dvc units fit in. The Villas fit in very well with the theme of the WL. Kidani Village is themed in the same way as the AL. The only DVC resort that conflicts with its corresponding hotel is BLT, but that is going to happen with the theme of the contemporary built around its shape.

Can they reuse the mark vi's to let guests walk between the cars?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Can they reuse the mark vi's to let guests walk between the cars?

It might be possible, but seems unlikely. It is the drive tires that prevent guests from being able to walk between cars. If that is the goal, I think new trains would be easier and cheaper.

http://monorails.org/tMspages/TPDispr.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hello Mr. Sotto, I wanted to say thank you for Main Street at DLP! I just am back from a trip there (have been there a few times before), but thanks to this thread I did appreciate Main Street much more than before. I always thought it was very pretty, but this time I realised how incredibly beautiful it is and how much it has to offer! I really took the time to explore the shops and the arcades and search for the sound effects. I still haven't seen everything...

The thing that fascinated me the most were all the different rooms in Walt's (we had a wonderful lunch there). And in one of the previous posts, you mentioned something about art deco being in its early stages at the time period of Main Street. I guess that's the reason why the room in Walt's which has the discovery theme is decorated in art deco? I was at first surprised that it did look so different than the rest of the restaurant, more modern with the art deco ceiling painting and the chairs.

One thing I was wondering about however was: When designing these spaces, how much influence do the people have who will then be responsible for running the restaurant (or shop for that matter, you discussed that bit in the past already)? Having different chairs in all the rooms might make things rather difficult when they need to be replaced? Or at the Plaza Restaurant I noticed the tassles hanging down to the floor from the benches? These things make those places look much fuller themed, more immersive, than a normal pretty restaurant, but for me they it looks like they must make the running of the restaurant more difficult?

Oh, and finally, I read the story about the 20s themed Main Street on the Disney and more blog and from a German perspective I absolutely agree that this would have been a design which would have been much more relevant to many Europeans.

I'm glad you noticed the details, it's great when guests see those little things that meant alot to us. I think if more people read up on the lands like you did they would get more out of it. Just to be clear, "Art Nouveau" (not Art Deco) was the inspiration for the Discoveryland Room of Walt's, as it was in existence (1890 to 1905 aprox). We relied on Artist Alphonse Mucha and Designer Hector Guimard as an inspiration.We were required by contract to incorporate French culture into the design where applicable. Discoveryland was the primary place to do that, so we used "Art Nouveau" imagery and design in that room, as it was to a degree part of the "La Belle Epoque" movement. You'll also see that style on Billboards.

To design these themed spaces, it does take a reasonable amount of upkeep, something DLP has not been fiscally equipped to deal with. that's why you see some of those "bad show" moments. We do work hand in hand with the operators of the restaurant and sometimes it's a conflict between something that is either institutional and boring, or so themed it cannot be maintained. You try to be good at both and create something that once you are gone will not get rehabbed into a plastic looking facility. You have to think like they do to a degree and be reasonable (keeping props out of cooking areas, doing tile that looks great but is cleanable, etc), but realize that people are paying big money to see and experience what it built. Everyone has to work a bit harder to do something worth paying to see. It's not a Burger King. Most of those places have held up really well despite their being heavily themed. You try to choose your battles and put the decor in places that don't get in the way of the operation too much.

 

[flavious27]

It might be possible, but seems unlikely. It is the drive tires that prevent guests from being able to walk between cars. If that is the goal, I think new trains would be easier and cheaper.

http://monorails.org/tMspages/TPDispr.html

True, it may cost less to buy new trains than to retrofit the mark vi's. The propulsion would be changed and the chassis would be extensively modified. The upside to that is more space in the cabin and a new propulsion system that could be more efficient. It would also not isolate guests if their doors can not open.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

True, it may cost less to buy new trains than to retrofit the mark vi's. The propulsion would be changed and the chassis would be extensively modified. The upside to that is more space in the cabin and a new propulsion system that could be more efficient. It would also not isolate guests if their doors can not open.

All good. By the time you get to that point, it may be best to look at other existing systems in transport and modify that visually. The investment for scratch building such a small fleet would likely be huge.

 

[jt04]

I think the Parking lot, trams and TTC are vital steps towards the Magic Kingdom and resorts. It builds suspense and is the preshow to the main film. If Disney is able to give the lots and buildings a make-over i think it could plus the experience. I know the Magic Kingdom has a special entrance through the tunnels but why can't the TTC be something special as well. The Monorails i think enter into the discussion at this point. The Monorails are looking and smelling a little worn these days, things are not as tight as they used to be. Cosmetic issues like loose and worn doors, Teal seats and pink trim (barf, being a Floridian every time i see those two colors together i have a physical convulsion). I am not saying we necessarily need new trains (we do) but a really good overhaul would be nice. The 11 monorails will be overtaxed for the next couple months so I know they will be stretched thin until maroon/peach comes back online. When it does it would be nice if they took each train off and refurbed inside and out so they will last 10 more years until 2021 when we should get new trains for the 50th. Back to the TTC, reading what everyone else said about the style and decor, a entrance that incorporates the different lands of the Magic Kingdom as well the resorts came to mind as something different.

The whole TTC backstory device went out of style a couple decades ago. It just does not work as most people are not new visitors or have experienced travel like that offered around the MK area where they live.

To solve the problems you mention, which are legitimate, Disney needs to rethink the entire area IMO. And now that HSR is dead to WDW they really need to move forward and come up with a property wide transportation plan for the 21st century. It can be done and it can be done in a way that enhances the guest experience while saving money over time.

My next goal is to post my ideas for a property wide transportation system in the Imagineering forum.

 

[StageFrenzy]

The whole TTC backstory device went out of style a couple decades ago. It just does not work as most people are not new visitors or have experienced travel like that offered around the MK area where they live.To solve the problems you mention, which are legitimate, Disney needs to rethink the entire area IMO. And now that HSR is dead to WDW they really need to move forward and come up with a property wide transportation plan for the 21st century. It can be done and it can be done in a way that enhances the guest experience while saving money over time.

For you maybe and other regulars, but a lot of people don't go on a regular basis. When I take a long break from the parks it think its great to have that gradual transition from the parking lot to the magic kingdom complete with tram ride and smelly monorail ride through the contemporary. After i have had my pass for a while I want to get there as quickly and efficiently as possible. A lot of the time i like to stay on property so i can take the bus and bypass the TTC and its issues.

 

[flavious27]

All good. By the time you get to that point, it may be best to look at other existing systems in transport and modify that visually. The investment for scratch building such a small fleet would likely be huge.

Which is the problem with the wdw monorail system, every is multiplied by 12. It would help to know how much it cost dlt for each train when they added their monorail system in 2001. It can help a little bit to bring down the costs if tdo can find a buyer for the existing fleet, southeast asia could be a place. I don't think that other disney parks though were designed to have a monorail as part of their masters plans, so that option is not on the table.

 

[flavious27]

The whole TTC backstory device went out of style a couple decades ago. It just does not work as most people are not new visitors or have experienced travel like that offered around the MK area where they live.

To solve the problems you mention, which are legitimate, Disney needs to rethink the entire area IMO. And now that HSR is dead to WDW they really need to move forward and come up with a property wide transportation plan for the 21st century. It can be done and it can be done in a way that enhances the guest experience while saving money over time.

My next goal is to post my ideas for a property wide transportation system in the Imagineering forum.

There has been those that suggested adding a prt system, which would be cool and could work, though the track would need to be placed at ground level. This is could lead to problems when crossing roads and how to map out routes.

I have posted this map as a possible expansion of the monorail system, it would show that a central hub would need to be built.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Question....

Given the global meltdown of everything from governments to nuclear power, is EPCOT becoming irrelevant as a meaningful experience? Yes, it's fun and there are things to inspire and see, but has the world moved into a place that makes it more of a fantasy than the Magic Kingdom? I must be watching too much news.

 

[flavious27]

The whole TTC backstory device went out of style a couple decades ago. It just does not work as most people are not new visitors or have experienced travel like that offered around the MK area where they live.

To solve the problems you mention, which are legitimate, Disney needs to rethink the entire area IMO. And now that HSR is dead to WDW they really need to move forward and come up with a property wide transportation plan for the 21st century. It can be done and it can be done in a way that enhances the guest experience while saving money over time.

My next goal is to post my ideas for a property wide transportation system in the Imagineering forum.

I quickly wiped this up.

and this

 

[Krack]

Given the global meltdown of everything from governments to nuclear power, is EPCOT becoming irrelevant as a meaningful experience? Yes, it's fun and there are things to inspire and see, but has the world moved into a place that makes it more of a fantasy than the Magic Kingdom? I must be watching too much news.

You pose an interesting question, but I don't think there's much there there.

Look at original Future World ... the pavilion themes are timeless. You can go back as far as 10,000 years and all of the themes (communication, travel, energy, agriculture, imagination, oceanography, biology, innovation and how they apply to the future) were relevant and topical. And 10,000 years from now (barring an extinction event) they still will be. Sure the themeing has been completely eaten into over the last 15 years (a much different debate for a different time), but many of them are still there. Regarding Future World, I interpreted your question as "Is progress still happening in the world" and I suppose my answer would be that it's happening everywhere but in Future World itself.

As for the World Showcase ... for the vast majority of the world (United States included), international travel is a rare occurrence. Where else in the world can you "visit" and get a taste of eleven different nations in one place for $80/day? I can't think of anywhere. Now, just as is true of Future World, there's been incremental degradation over the years of the original "as close to the real thing as possible" themeing that (in my opinion) infringes on the experience, but it's still a very rare place.

Don't get me wrong, I pretty much hate (strong word, but I own it) 90% of the changes that have happened in EPCOT since 1994ish (and the people who authorized them). But the concept, the ideas, the majority of the attractions integral to the original implementation that are still there is truly unique.

EDIT: Turn off the news.

EDIT #2: I've always looked at Future World as a set of museums (not unlike the Smithsonian on the Washington Mall). As designed, most had a lengthy "this is the history of the topic" section (generally built to last - requiring effects maintenance, but with the show/ride itself intended to have some permanence to it) and a smaller, more interactive "this is where the topic is headed" (intended to see regular changes and updates). How can a set of museums ever really go out of style unless you fail to update them with the newest information available on the particular topic?

 

[lazyboy97o]

True, it may cost less to buy new trains than to retrofit the mark vi's. The propulsion would be changed and the chassis would be extensively modified. The upside to that is more space in the cabin and a new propulsion system that could be more efficient. It would also not isolate guests if their doors can not open.

All good. By the time you get to that point, it may be best to look at other existing systems in transport and modify that visually. The investment for scratch building such a small fleet would likely be huge.

Which is the problem with the wdw monorail system, every is multiplied by 12. It would help to know how much it cost dlt for each train when they added their monorail system in 2001. It can help a little bit to bring down the costs if tdo can find a buyer for the existing fleet, southeast asia could be a place. I don't think that other disney parks though were designed to have a monorail as part of their masters plans, so that option is not on the table.

Disneyland Resort and Walt Disney World resort both operate what are commonly called "Alweg-style" monorails, whereas the Tokyo Disney Resort operates "Hitachi-style" monorails (even though the Seattle Alweg is in this configuration). I do not think anybody has solved the "problem" of converting an Alweg-style system into a Hitatchi-style system. In order to fit the smaller and greater number of drive tires, the floor of a Hitachi-style monorail is significantly higher than the floor on an Alweg-style monorail. The height clearance of the current Mark VI monorails is very tight, especially at the Contemporary Resort.

Doing some research it seems that the closest existing Hitachi-style design to be able to work on the Walt Disney World Monorail System would be the Hitachi Small Monorail Car, currently in use by the Sentosa Express (if that name sounds familiar to some, Sentosa is home to Universal Studios Singapore). The Hitachi Small beam is 0.04m (1.6") wider and 0.08m (3.2") taller. The cars themselves however become the bigger problem, as they are 0.25m (9.84") wider but I cannot find information regarding the height of the car above the beam. If I have time I may try and do a size comparison in Photoshop that should give a rather accurate size comparison.

I think it would be more likely to see Disney alter the center seats on the Mark VIs. Moving the seats to the side, so that guests now face a window instead of front or back. This would open up access between the two sides of each car and should also increase standing room.

Given the global meltdown of everything from governments to nuclear power, is EPCOT becoming irrelevant as a meaningful experience? Yes, it's fun and there are things to inspire and see, but has the world moved into a place that makes it more of a fantasy than the Magic Kingdom? I must be watching too much news.

Some might consider it cheesy, but I think that sort of positive optimism has a place in the world. Fears of the future are nothing new, we just have better means of spread these fears. I think EPCOT Center should continue to embrace the future, and even do things that would be "wrong" or distracting in the other parks. Accept, advocate and engage the technology people already have to try and show its greater and brighter potential.

 

[flavious27]

Given the global meltdown of everything from governments to nuclear power, is EPCOT becoming irrelevant as a meaningful experience? Yes, it's fun and there are things to inspire and see, but has the world moved into a place that makes it more of a fantasy than the Magic Kingdom? I must be watching too much news.

I don't think it is meaningless or irrelevant, but I think that their needs to be updates in different pavilions.

WOL needs to be reopened, and its focus should be not only the inter workings of our bodies but also how to maintain those bodies. I bet that part of this could be funded by the Let's Move program.

Innovations should be looking ahead a generation, like how epaper was featured in the 90's. It would be cool if they have a house of the future that keeps getting updated; sponsorship could come from IKEA to Kenmore to Sony.

Test Track needs an update from pre-show to the ride. Along with that, the post show is lacking what it was suppose to be. The post show should be full of GM's most recent concept vehicles, not act as the show floor at a car show in a mid size city.

The land needs to show not only inventive ways that food can be grown, it should let guests know simple ways to grow at home. Also this could be funded by the organic movement that Michelle is in charge of.

UofE can have a post show that highlights renewable energy solutions, sponsored by the companies making these products.

Alot of what can be done is just with working with current and new sponsors, 10 million annual guests is an audience that a 30 second commercial can not match.