Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[StageFrenzy]

If shanghai is getting a monorail system that could help to defray costs of a new fleet for WDW

 

[SeaCastle]

If shanghai is getting a monorail system that could help to defray costs of a new fleet for WDW

Perhaps only if you're talking about paying for new vehicles, which is expensive as is, but between digging foundations, site prep, pouring concrete, assembling track...developing a system for Shanghai can't help you too much there.

 

[ChrisFL]

There has been those that suggested adding a prt system, which would be cool and could work, though the track would need to be placed at ground level. This is could lead to problems when crossing roads and how to map out routes.

Why would the track need to be placed at ground level?

 

[lazyboy97o]

If shanghai is getting a monorail system that could help to defray costs of a new fleet for WDW

Only if a Shanghai Disney monorail also utilized a Bombardier M-VI system.

 

[flavious27]

Disneyland Resort and Walt Disney World resort both operate what are commonly called "Alweg-style" monorails, whereas the Tokyo Disney Resort operates "Hitachi-style" monorails (even though the Seattle Alweg is in this configuration). I do not think anybody has solved the "problem" of converting an Alweg-style system into a Hitatchi-style system. In order to fit the smaller and greater number of drive tires, the floor of a Hitachi-style monorail is significantly higher than the floor on an Alweg-style monorail. The height clearance of the current Mark VI monorails is very tight, especially at the Contemporary Resort.

Doing some research it seems that the closest existing Hitachi-style design to be able to work on the Walt Disney World Monorail System would be the Hitachi Small Monorail Car, currently in use by the Sentosa Express (if that name sounds familiar to some, Sentosa is home to Universal Studios Singapore). The Hitachi Small beam is 0.04m (1.6") wider and 0.08m (3.2") taller. The cars themselves however become the bigger problem, as they are 0.25m (9.84") wider but I cannot find information regarding the height of the car above the beam. If I have time I may try and do a size comparison in Photoshop that should give a rather accurate size comparison.

I think it would be more likely to see Disney alter the center seats on the Mark VIs. Moving the seats to the side, so that guests now face a window instead of front or back. This would open up access between the two sides of each car and should also increase standing room.

Thanks for the great explanation. I was looking on www.monorails.org and they had some specs.

WDW is 26" width, 48" height, 80" height at endpoint

Hitachi type 2 is 31.5 " width, 55.1-63" height, 86.6' height at endpoint

Moving the the seats around could open up some room in the mark vi's. They could also switch to a single, larger set of doors in the middle with seating that wraps around both ends of the car.

 

[flavious27]

If shanghai is getting a monorail system that could help to defray costs of a new fleet for WDW

It could if they purchase a couple of the wdw trains and tdo puts that money towards newer trains. It just matters that they built the right track and they have a need for it. I don't see china buying 20 year old machines to just offset what tdo wants.

 

[flavious27]

Why would the track need to be placed at ground level?

Placing the prt paths at ground level will lessen the cost of the project, elevating it will kick up the cost by a large amount.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If shanghai is getting a monorail system that could help to defray costs of a new fleet for WDW

Thanks for the great explanation. I was looking on www.monorails.org and they had some specs.

WDW is 26" width, 48" height, 80" height at endpoint

Hitachi type 2 is 31.5 " width, 55.1-63" height, 86.6' height at endpoint

Moving the the seats around could open up some room in the mark vi's. They could also switch to a single, larger set of doors in the middle with seating that wraps around both ends of the car.

Those are beam sizes, and if you look at The Monorail Society's ALWEG Beam Comparison Chart you will see that the Hitachi Type 3 (the one I was describing) is much closer in size to Walt Disney World than the Type 2. The big issue still is the height of the monorail car above the beam. Hitachi only lists the skirt-to-roof height of their monorails on their website.

 

[flavious27]

Those are beam sizes, and if you look at The Monorail Society's ALWEG Beam Comparison Chart you will see that the Hitachi Type 3 (the one I was describing) is much closer in size to Walt Disney World than the Type 2. The big issue still is the height of the monorail car above the beam. Hitachi only lists the skirt-to-roof height of their monorails on their website.

The height issue will effect all of the platforms also, just thought of that. They mention that the bottom of the train is 44.5" above the beam.

Do you know if having a Scomi train instead will effect the height?

 

[doppelv]

Given the global meltdown of everything from governments to nuclear power, is EPCOT becoming irrelevant as a meaningful experience? Yes, it's fun and there are things to inspire and see, but has the world moved into a place that makes it more of a fantasy than the Magic Kingdom? I must be watching too much news.

I think EPCOT is still a meaningful experience, but you're right, it is becoming a fantasy. One might argue that it possibly always has been a fantasy. Future World, with all of its hope and optimism was still created with the idea that American business is the driving force for growth and innovation. While that is hopefully something for businesses to strive for, in reality, the cold hard facts of corporate America tarnish the dream that is EPCOT. Business drive innovation and growth for profit. Walt Disney put so much of his faith in free enterprise.

The problem is that free enterprise figured out how to move forward by leaving the masses behind. Just look at the past and current sponsors of the Future World pavilions. You have Siemens, which used slave labor in WWII, Nestle (former sponsor of the Land) which has been accused of environmental destruction and dealings with embargoed nations, GM who pretends to advocate electric vehicles while secretly sabotaging their future, Exxon Mobil, need I say more... it goes on and on.

World Showcase is a wonderful idea, but in reality, it has to sidestep issues. China, for example, is portrayed as a beautiful utopia, when in reality their human rights record is far from stellar.

EPCOT I believe represents utopia, the impossible dream, which is sad because Walt had so much faith in the dream that was to be his city. The theme park may not be what Walt had envisioned, but I still see some of his dreams and aspiration permeating throughout its grounds. It is a wonderful place with many new ideas and cultural encounters, but I think that the harshness of reality has made EPCOT's utopian nature all the more apparent.

This resonates so strong in me whenever I listen to any part of the soundtrack from the Millennium Celebration. The music and words are so uplifting and so inspiring. It breaks my heart when I think that less than a year after the close of the celebration, the world really began to fall apart, and so much hope and optimism just flat out died. At the turn of the millennium, it seemed like the world could accomplish anything. By October of the next year, it seemed like we had to do all we could to keep the world together.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The height issue will effect all of the platforms also, just thought of that. They mention that the bottom of the train is 44.5" above the beam.

Do you know if having a Scomi train instead will effect the height?

The platforms are relatively easy to alter, they were already modified to accommodate the Mark VIs when they came online.

The Scomi train design seems to be about 1m (3'-3") taller than the Mark VIs.

I think EPCOT is still a meaningful experience, but you're right, it is becoming a fantasy. One might argue that it possibly always has been a fantasy. Future World, with all of its hope and optimism was still created with the idea that American business is the driving force for growth and innovation. While that is hopefully something for businesses to strive for, in reality, the cold hard facts of corporate America tarnish the dream that is EPCOT. Business drive innovation and growth for profit. Walt Disney put so much of his faith in free enterprise.

The problem is that free enterprise figured out how to move forward by leaving the masses behind. Just look at the past and current sponsors of the Future World pavilions. You have Siemens, which used slave labor in WWII, Nestle (former sponsor of the Land) which has been accused of environmental destruction and dealings with embargoed nations, GM who pretends to advocate electric vehicles while secretly sabotaging their future, Exxon Mobil, need I say more... it goes on and on.

World Showcase is a wonderful idea, but in reality, it has to sidestep issues. China, for example, is portrayed as a beautiful utopia, when in reality their human rights record is far from stellar.

EPCOT I believe represents utopia, the impossible dream, which is sad because Walt had so much faith in the dream that was to be his city. The theme park may not be what Walt had envisioned, but I still see some of his dreams and aspiration permeating throughout its grounds. It is a wonderful place with many new ideas and cultural encounters, but I think that the harshness of reality has made EPCOT's utopian nature all the more apparent.

This resonates so strong in me whenever I listen to any part of the soundtrack from the Millennium Celebration. The music and words are so uplifting and so inspiring. It breaks my heart when I think that less than a year after the close of the celebration, the world really began to fall apart, and so much hope and optimism just flat out died. At the turn of the millennium, it seemed like the world could accomplish anything. By October of the next year, it seemed like we had to do all we could to keep the world together.

If we reject all who have faults or even skeletons in the past and present, then the only utopia vision is of the happy savage, an image itself that does not live up to scrutiny. You are not going to find any perfect sponsors that themselves match the ideals of EPCOT Center. The same reasoning is why Disney itself is criticized for its themed experiences, being painted as distractions from racially insensitive films and greed fueled consumerism. Heck, even EPCOT was supposed to be a sort of benevolent dictatorship similar to Plato's Republic.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think EPCOT is still a meaningful experience, but you're right, it is becoming a fantasy. One might argue that it possibly always has been a fantasy. Future World, with all of its hope and optimism was still created with the idea that American business is the driving force for growth and innovation. While that is hopefully something for businesses to strive for, in reality, the cold hard facts of corporate America tarnish the dream that is EPCOT. Business drive innovation and growth for profit. Walt Disney put so much of his faith in free enterprise.

The problem is that free enterprise figured out how to move forward by leaving the masses behind. Just look at the past and current sponsors of the Future World pavilions. You have Siemens, which used slave labor in WWII, Nestle (former sponsor of the Land) which has been accused of environmental destruction and dealings with embargoed nations, GM who pretends to advocate electric vehicles while secretly sabotaging their future, Exxon Mobil, need I say more... it goes on and on.

World Showcase is a wonderful idea, but in reality, it has to sidestep issues. China, for example, is portrayed as a beautiful utopia, when in reality their human rights record is far from stellar.

EPCOT I believe represents utopia, the impossible dream, which is sad because Walt had so much faith in the dream that was to be his city. The theme park may not be what Walt had envisioned, but I still see some of his dreams and aspiration permeating throughout its grounds. It is a wonderful place with many new ideas and cultural encounters, but I think that the harshness of reality has made EPCOT's utopian nature all the more apparent.

This resonates so strong in me whenever I listen to any part of the soundtrack from the Millennium Celebration. The music and words are so uplifting and so inspiring. It breaks my heart when I think that less than a year after the close of the celebration, the world really began to fall apart, and so much hope and optimism just flat out died. At the turn of the millennium, it seemed like the world could accomplish anything. By October of the next year, it seemed like we had to do all we could to keep the world together.

Well said. It was always a fantasy wasn't it? but rooted in a plausible scientific reality. That plausibility gets harder to swallow as we as a society become more cynical, especially toward corporations. EPCOT today reminds me a bit of the 1939 New York Worlds Fair. Shortly after opening, WW2 had already made strides in Europe and pavilions began to close or come into question. The "World of Tomorrow" optimism dimmed as the shadow of war headed to America. It was still great in 1940, but the focus went away from the tutorial and purposeful exhibits and instead relied on the carnival midway and its escapist distractions. EPCOT too has strayed from is mission driven roots to more populist thrills, etc.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Well said. It was always a fantasy wasn't it? but rooted in a plausible scientific reality. That plausibility gets harder to swallow as we as a society become more cynical, especially toward corporations. EPCOT today reminds me a bit of the 1939 New York Worlds Fair. Shortly after opening, WW2 had already made strides in Europe and pavilions began to close or come into question. The "World of Tomorrow" optimism dimmed as the shadow of war headed to America. It was still great in 1940, but the focus went away from the tutorial and purposeful exhibits and instead relied on the carnival midway and its escapist distractions. EPCOT too has strayed from is mission driven roots to more populist thrills, etc.

I suppose that really speaks of the progression of society, and Disney's need to keep up with it. We mentioned this back a few pages ago when we spoke about the interactive queue's and I said that Disney needed to incorporate the technology to keep their guests engaged. The same can be said about Epcot, and so many of the changes we have seen over the years. I fear that the days of trying to educate the guests as they did in the 80's and 90's is gone. The mindset of people has changed dramatically from this time, and now they really want to escape when they vacation instead of being reminded of the world around them. This is why in order to educate people, Epcot has to be very careful and display as much of it as entertainment as they can. While I might not love the chages, I understand them from Disney's perspective. The Living Seas was a dying pavilion, even with having an absolutely incredible aquarium. Now that they incorporated Nemo they have given people the opportunity to learn about the oceans...even if they are tricking them in the door with a bit of misplaced story. Times have changed all around and Disney needs to evolve with their guests...you don't see people wearing slacks and dress shirts to the parks anymore either do you?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I suppose that really speaks of the progression of society, and Disney's need to keep up with it. We mentioned this back a few pages ago when we spoke about the interactive queue's and I said that Disney needed to incorporate the technology to keep their guests engaged. The same can be said about Epcot, and so many of the changes we have seen over the years. I fear that the days of trying to educate the guests as they did in the 80's and 90's is gone. The mindset of people has changed dramatically from this time, and now they really want to escape when they vacation instead of being reminded of the world around them. This is why in order to educate people, Epcot has to be very careful and display as much of it as entertainment as they can. While I might not love the chages, I understand them from Disney's perspective. The Living Seas was a dying pavilion, even with having an absolutely incredible aquarium. Now that they incorporated Nemo they have given people the opportunity to learn about the oceans...even if they are tricking them in the door with a bit of misplaced story. Times have changed all around and Disney needs to evolve with their guests...you don't see people wearing slacks and dress shirts to the parks anymore either do you?

Well, only on certain days. http://www.dapperday.com/

Society has become it's own restless sea hasn't it? I do understand the changes as they are trying to address the wants of the audience to a degree. I guess one of those "wants" is to envision a peaceful planet where somehow everyone gets along. "Illuminations" is the "It's a Small World" for Adults, in that despite the folly of everything else, once you're all in the dark together celebrating the dream of a unified world still brings a tear.

 

[Figment571]

As to the thoughts that the idea of EPCOT being more of a fantasy now, I do believe that is the current mood in the world, we live in a very uncertain and cynical time. Yet, I do believe that this is merely a phase and not a permanent condition, if you look at times like the mid 70's, the 30's, and even further, if you care to do such looking, back in time after the fall of the Athenian Empire people had a feeling that the best had passed and the world wasn't going to get much better.

This I believe is due to a number of reasons, but more importantly, will pass eventually. There will be a time in the near future where that optimism will be seen again, perhaps not in a form that has been seen before, but nonetheless it will be there.
So that brings me to a question that I have wondered about. Should EPCOT try to be a proponent of an optimistic future or simply be an "escape"? Is there any room in the world for such a place that is so closely associated with a corporation successfully show a future that the masses will see as inspiring?

 

[flavious27]

The platforms are relatively easy to alter, they were already modified to accommodate the Mark VIs when they came online.

The Scomi train design seems to be about 1m (3'-3") taller than the Mark VIs.


If we reject all who have faults or even skeletons in the past and present, then the only utopia vision is of the happy savage, an image itself that does not live up to scrutiny. You are not going to find any perfect sponsors that themselves match the ideals of EPCOT Center. The same reasoning is why Disney itself is criticized for its themed experiences, being painted as distractions from racially insensitive films and greed fueled consumerism. Heck, even EPCOT was supposed to be a sort of benevolent dictatorship similar to Plato's Republic.

I see that the train is a meter taller overall, though I wonder if it could be changed to be the same height as the mark vi. They are about a half meter wider also, which would be nice but it would matter what that means to the existing platforms. I like that the scomi propulsion looks smaller than the current alweg.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Well, only on certain days. http://www.dapperday.com/

Society has become it's own restless sea hasn't it? I do understand the changes as they are trying to address the wants of the audience to a degree. I guess one of those "wants" is to envision a peaceful planet where somehow everyone gets along. "Illuminations" is the "It's a Small World" for Adults, in that despite the folly of everything else, once you're all in the dark together celebrating the dream of a unified world still brings a tear.

While you would probably get some looks, the Dapper Day events look nice. Never even knew those existed. I would be willing to settle though if people would dress a little nicer at just the signature restaurants...

In regards to the unity Illuminations tries to bring about, it is the only remnant of the theme from the millenium celebration. The entire year was about unity and expanding upon what the message of World Showcase should ultimately be. We all know that at the end of the day each and everyone one of those countries and people in them have problems, but hasn't Disney always focused on idealized reality? Even the "realism" of Animal Kingdom is idealistic. For example, Asia and Africa may look a lot more authentic than New Orleans Square, but the realisms and troubles of their most closely related towns sure aren't mentioned anywhere in the park.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

While you would probably get some looks, the Dapper Day events look nice. Never even knew those existed. I would be willing to settle though if people would dress a little nicer at just the signature restaurants...

In regards to the unity Illuminations tries to bring about, it is the only remnant of the theme from the millenium celebration. The entire year was about unity and expanding upon what the message of World Showcase should ultimately be. We all know that at the end of the day each and everyone one of those countries and people in them have problems, but hasn't Disney always focused on idealized reality? Even the "realism" of Animal Kingdom is idealistic. For example, Asia and Africa may look a lot more authentic than New Orleans Square, but the realisms and troubles of their most closely related towns sure aren't mentioned anywhere in the park.

Maybe that's why it costs so much, well executed escapism is worth it. The worse the real world gets, the more popular and dramatic Disney will become by comparison. I guess my point in the beginning is that those countries just get further from their stereotyped roots and come off even more romanticized than they were at the outset. Who knows, in time those who really live in those countries may yearn for the simpler, more traditional view EPCOT portrays, like little nostalgic Main Streets!

 

[redshoesrock]

Times have changed all around and Disney needs to evolve with their guests...you don't see people wearing slacks and dress shirts to the parks anymore either do you?

In Tokyo, you see much more of the slacks/dress shirts crowd; generally, the Japanese wear nicer clothes when they go to TDL/TDS than their American counterparts. I remember reading and hearing about how Disney had to "tone down" some attractions where the guest gets sprayed with water because the Japanese did not like their nice clothes getting wet or ruined.

 

[redshoesrock]

While you would probably get some looks, the Dapper Day events look nice. Never even knew those existed. I would be willing to settle though if people would dress a little nicer at just the signature restaurants...

DOUBLE POST!!

When I go to WDW, I usually go to many of the nicer restaurants (California Grill, Jiko, Narcoossee's, etc), and I always wear nice slacks and a dress shirt. And I can also say the people who show up in their theme park outfit (t-shirt and shorts) ALWAYS stick out like sore thumbs, to the extent that I think next time they will know to dress more appropriately.