Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[ChrisFL]

For those interested in WDW's Main St. history, WDWRadio.com has 2 podcasts with Lou Mongello taking a tour of Main Street USA with a guide (can't recall his name right now) and goes over lots of historical information, it's really well done.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm enjoying your comments so much, great thoughts here.

One thing that stands out to me, is that the Main Street we have now is so much of it's own magical experience that it stands quintessentially on it's own. It may be healthier to think of these alternate takes on it in another park, because you cannot help but compare them and think you are replacing one with another, when in fact they are mutually exclusive, as in the Studio Tour "Hollywood Blvd", is a 30's "Main Street" and works in it's context.

What if this new experience that took place in the 60's was in DCA? To me that's more liberating mentally. Then it's easier to think about it. The movie "American Graffiti" was set in '62 but took liberties and swung pretty far back into the 50's. It was a cultural overlay on a small town from the past.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Eddie, just wanted to say that I finally listened to the audio from the Knott's Preserved event via The Season Pass Podcast and it was a great listen. They have me very curious about Knott's Berry Farm as I never went there during the years that I lived in California and fell in love with Disneyland (my mother says its because she worked for Smuckers during most of that time).

 

[flavious27]

I'm enjoying your comments so much, great thoughts here.

One thing that stands out to me, is that the Main Street we have now is so much of it's own magical experience that it stands quintessentially on it's own. It may be healthier to think of these alternate takes on it in another park, because you cannot help but compare them and think you are replacing one with another, when in fact they are mutually exclusive, as in the Studio Tour "Hollywood Blvd", is a 30's "Main Street" and works in it's context.

What if this new experience that took place in the 60's was in DCA? To me that's more liberating mentally. Then it's easier to think about it. The movie "American Graffiti" was set in '62 but took liberties and swung pretty far back into the 50's. It was a cultural overlay on a small town from the past.

Well you could also look at the Erie PA in the movie "That Thing You Do", that downtown area looks similar to Bedford Falls. I don't know if it could be used in a disney park because the road is wider and does not give a sense of intimacy.

Now if we want real life examples of a Main Street America that Disney could use as inspiration, Pitman NJ would fit.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well you could also look at the Erie PA in the movie "That Thing You Do", that downtown area looks similar to Bedford Falls. I don't know if it could be used in a disney park because the road is wider and does not give a sense of intimacy.

Now if we want real life examples of a Main Street America that Disney could use as inspiration, Pitman NJ would fit.

Thanks for the great tips, my Grandparents hailed from Erie. Will check it out.

BTW-I thought "That thing you do" was shot near DL in Orange, Ca. among other locations in LA.

 

[TP2000]

Thanks for the great tips, my Grandparents hailed from Erie. Will check it out.

BTW-I thought "That thing you do" was shot near DL in Orange, Ca. among other locations in LA.

Yes, it was! Most of the exterior shots for That Thing You Do were shot in the charming downtown section of Orange, California; about 4 miles due east as the crow flies from Disneyland USA. There aren't many palm trees in that part of Orange, so it was easy for the camera to make it look like Pennsylvania instead. I live in Villa Park, next door to Orange, and sometimes hang out in "The Plaza" in Orange for lunch and am reminded of That Thing You Do every time I walk past the Army-Navy store there.

I loved that bit of the movie when the drummer takes off and goes to Disneyland with the Marines and misses the big TV performance. How clever they were to reskin the current bobsleds on the Matterhorn in their original 1960's livery for that classic splashdown shot. (Although the true geeks noticed they were the current tandem bobsleds instead of the 1960's single sleds.)

Eddie, have you seen the construction walls that went up this week in front of DCA's main entrance?

The artwork is very clever, as big WDI sketches of the redone entrance complex and Buena Vista Street opening act, plus vintage Disney characters from the 1920's and 30's that many folks have forgotten about, with the exact date of their debut noted under their name. Oswald makes his appearance on the walls, perhaps for the first time at a Disney theme park.

This DCA entry complex extreme makeover is certainly the first time Disney has gone in and totally redone and rethemed an entry area in an existing theme park. It's also perhaps the first time that's ever been done to this extent at any theme park in America. I can't think of any other example where a park's management felt the need to dramatically rework and rebuild and retheme a park entry area, can you? Certainly not one that is only 9 years old.

Truly unprecedented times we're living in, aren't they? (At least in Anaheim).

.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Truly unprecedented times we're living in, aren't they? (At least in Anaheim).
.

I recall how they replaced the ticket booths and turnstiles at DL years ago. It was super strange to stand there with no turnstile structure and see the train station. Still, that is nothing compared to what is going on at DCA. Thanks for posting those fun images of the construction fences. I have been mostly staying away from the parks as they have been so overcrowded in recent times. Love seeing Oswald on there. I have always loved the feeling you get entering on Hollywood Blvd at the DHS in WDW, so I'm hoping DCA will feel as good or better.

 

[ChrisFL]

Oswald has already been featured in a parade in Tokyo or HK, can't remember which, just FYI

 

[lazyboy97o]

Oswald has already been featured in a parade in Tokyo or HK, can't remember which, just FYI

Probably Tokyo. Until right before the re-acquisition, Universal Japan was selling Oswald the Lucky Rabbit plush, and maybe some other merchandise.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Probably Tokyo. Until right before the re-acquisition, Universal Japan was selling Oswald the Lucky Rabbit plush, and maybe some other merchandise.

I wear an Oswald T Shirt and frequently people ask about it because of the Epic Mickey Wii game he's featured in, so i guess he's an "initiative". I like him better than Duffy.

 

[flavious27]

Yes, it was! Most of the exterior shots for That Thing You Do were shot in the charming downtown section of Orange, California; about 4 miles due east as the crow flies from Disneyland USA. There aren't many palm trees in that part of Orange, so it was easy for the camera to make it look like Pennsylvania instead. I live in Villa Park, next door to Orange, and sometimes hang out in "The Plaza" in Orange for lunch and am reminded of That Thing You Do every time I walk past the Army-Navy store there.

I loved that bit of the movie when the drummer takes off and goes to Disneyland with the Marines and misses the big TV performance. How clever they were to reskin the current bobsleds on the Matterhorn in their original 1960's livery for that classic splashdown shot. (Although the true geeks noticed they were the current tandem bobsleds instead of the 1960's single sleds.)

Eddie, have you seen the construction walls that went up this week in front of DCA's main entrance?

The artwork is very clever, as big WDI sketches of the redone entrance complex and Buena Vista Street opening act, plus vintage Disney characters from the 1920's and 30's that many folks have forgotten about, with the exact date of their debut noted under their name. Oswald makes his appearance on the walls, perhaps for the first time at a Disney theme park.

This DCA entry complex extreme makeover is certainly the first time Disney has gone in and totally redone and rethemed an entry area in an existing theme park. It's also perhaps the first time that's ever been done to this extent at any theme park in America. I can't think of any other example where a park's management felt the need to dramatically rework and rebuild and retheme a park entry area, can you? Certainly not one that is only 9 years old.

Truly unprecedented times we're living in, aren't they? (At least in Anaheim).

.

That entrance has a bit of DHS in it, not that there is a problem with it having an art deco feel.

It is unprecedented what is going on at DL's second gate, but disney screwed up and now has to spend a billion + to fix it. I won't fault the individual imagineers, they worked with what upper management gave them and directed them to do. I bet that eddie has some insight into that.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I won't fault the individual imagineers, they worked with what upper management gave them and directed them to do. I bet that eddie has some insight into that.

DCA was born out of a business motive to create a "Resort" that would keep people on property longer, attract tourists, and in doing so cause per capita spending to go up. The California theme was adopted based on the reasoning that if tourists thought they could see DL and the essence of "California", they may not feel like they have to visit LA. That means they will stay overnight on property. To me, the real California is far more outrageous and interesting that what they did at DCA. I think the project lacked a soul. Some of it just looked too "thinly" themed and was not unique enough. Too much of the ride capacity was given to "off the shelf" rides that are not popular, so the few "E ticket" shows had all the demand. The budgets were very tight and no matter what, you are across from DL, so that invites harsh comparison. They also abandoned the notion of sightlines and berming etc, to hide visual intrusions like the big hotels looming over them. All these things are cumulative, as you still feel like you are in a converted parking lot. It felt more Six Flags at times than Disney.

All of the thematic "placemaking" going on now, is what they should have done before. (It's ironic that either you write the big check up front or a bigger one later, but with Disney parks you never get out of it cheaply.. why? it's a "Disney" Park!) The attendance is better now as there is more to do, so things seem to be on the mend. WOC has become the "heart" of the park in that lake, so that's good. You are right in that these were high level initiatives and the Imagineers either embrace and run with them or find another project. I was lucky to be on TDL at the time so I could and did avoid it. To be clear, the "Disney's California" concept was brainstormed and presented to Eisner by Imagineers at an offsite meeting. Operator Paul Pressler and Michael took a very hands on approach to the park and it's components. They had approval and were not about to spend as was spent on DLP which was a dirty word. DCA was strategically driven, the retail interiors are really great at the expense of the attractions or exterior detail (as Pressler came from retail). It was out of balance as there are also good areas of the park that are well done. So they are wisely fixing that by bringing back Bob Weis who did the original MGM Studio park and Mr. Iger is spending an unprecedented amount to make the park feel more Disney and have that MGM quality. A very wise, long term gesture and Weis is getting it done.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Bud Hurlbut passes away

Amusement Pioneer Bud Hurlbut passed away today as reported on the Miceage page. A great loss of both a talented innovator and a humble, generous man.

Bud was at the heart of the great attractions of Knott's Berry Farm as he was an amusement operator here in Los Angeles prior building miniature trains, like the ones that circled the streets of Venice. Back then you could build own rides and run them. It was a cottage industry. It was to the small kiddie parks like the ones Bud and David Bradley (Beverly Park) owned that Walt would one day take his kids and ply them for information. He later became the designer/operator that would design and build the best of Knott's attractions like the "Calico Mine Ride" and the "Log Ride". He made money from the admissions, but Knott allowed this as it entertained and drew people to the park. The ingenious track plan for the Calico Mine Ride inspired the layout of DL's Indiana Jones Attraction, as Tony and I both referred to it as masterpiece of using the same central space many times as a single experience. This ride was also inspirational to Walt for the "Rainbow Caverns" area of the Nature's Wonderland Train and again to Tony Baxter for "Big Thunder Mountain Railroad". Bud was an expert in all aspects of theme design and led the industry, especially in flume rides. The Knott's "Timber Mountain Log Ride" had show areas with tons of detail, even smells of evergreen. He'd always add to his rides over the years to make them more fun. Truly one who loved his business and it was contagious. When we were doing the "Soap Box Racer" Ride Marion Knott called Bud in to help with the ride vehicle design. He was great to work with and knew what was missing.

Now he's missing and that will be felt for a long time. I think the good thing is that his wisdom was shared with many people and he has left behind a wealth of great work for us all to study and enjoy.

 

[flavious27]

DCA was born out of a business motive to create a "Resort" that would keep people on property longer, attract tourists, and in doing so cause per capita spending to go up. The California theme was adopted based on the reasoning that if tourists thought they could see DL and the essence of "California", they may not feel like they have to visit LA. That means they will stay overnight on property. To me, the real California is far more outrageous and interesting that what they did at DCA. I think the project lacked a soul. Some of it just looked too "thinly" themed and was not unique enough. Too much of the ride capacity was given to "off the shelf" rides that are not popular, so the few "E ticket" shows had all the demand. The budgets were very tight and no matter what, you are across from DL, so that invites harsh comparison. They also abandoned the notion of sightlines and berming etc, to hide visual intrusions like the big hotels looming over them. All these things are cumulative, as you still feel like you are in a converted parking lot. It felt more Six Flags at times than Disney.

All of the thematic "placemaking" going on now, is what they should have done before. (It's ironic that either you write the big check up front or a bigger one later, but with Disney parks you never get out of it cheaply.. why? it's a "Disney" Park!) The attendance is better now as there is more to do, so things seem to be on the mend. WOC has become the "heart" of the park in that lake, so that's good. You are right in that these were high level initiatives and the Imagineers either embrace and run with them or find another project. I was lucky to be on TDL at the time so I could and did avoid it. To be clear, the "Disney's California" concept was brainstormed and presented to Eisner by Imagineers at an offsite meeting. Operator Paul Pressler and Michael took a very hands on approach to the park and it's components. They had approval and were not about to spend as was spent on DLP which was a dirty word. DCA was strategically driven, the retail interiors are really great at the expense of the attractions or exterior detail (as Pressler came from retail). It was out of balance as there are also good areas of the park that are well done. So they are wisely fixing that by bringing back Bob Weis who did the original MGM Studio park and Mr. Iger is spending an unprecedented amount to make the park feel more Disney and have that MGM quality. A very wise, long term gesture and Weis is getting it done.

I figured as much because of what they are doing to refurb the park and the comments on it. It is hard to make a disney park on a reduced six flags budget. I bet that they could have used the california themed better if their budgets were higher, so that the park would have been like those visit ca ads that they run. At the same time, they did convert a parking lot into a park and space is always at a premium.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I figured as much because of what they are doing to refurb the park and the comments on it. It is hard to make a disney park on a reduced six flags budget. I bet that they could have used the california themed better if their budgets were higher, so that the park would have been like those visit ca ads that they run. At the same time, they did convert a parking lot into a park and space is always at a premium.

I agree that there's a way to do "California" as a theme and make it a "wow", but with a bigger budget and perhaps more abstract creative approach instead of setting your environments up for direct comparison. Some areas were really well themed and others fell a bit short of their goals. It's so hard to open a park as the money gets incredibly tight toward the end. sometimes they realize there should be more and are willing to spend it but there's no time to do anything.

Whatever you execute, it has to be well done, even if the budget is small. You just bite off less. Paradise Pier set more in the 30's or 40's could have been true to a plaster walled "streamlined" architectural theme and perhaps been more convincing as a themed area. I don't know which would cost more but they used blown stucco on the buildings so it may be comparable. Sometimes you want to adjust the theme to fit your budget so what is done is a complete idea. It's hard to say what time period PP was intended to be set in, perhaps it's an abstraction, so I can't judge. I used to visit the Santa Cruz Boardwalk as a kid and recall the arcades and neon facades from the 30's with the glass block and plaster fins. Super cool. There were layers of the 20's wood coaster over the spires and plaster of the deco pavilions. They remind me of the new DCA "Pan Pacific" inspired entry being built now. The lighting at night is when PP looks the most magical. They went for the Victorian approach with the big bucks that I'm sure the designers would have loved to have had up front!

 

[flavious27]

I agree that there's a way to do "California" as a theme and make it a "wow", but with a bigger budget and perhaps more abstract creative approach instead of setting your environments up for direct comparison. Some areas were really well themed and others fell a bit short of their goals. It's so hard to open a park as the money gets incredibly tight toward the end. sometimes they realize there should be more and are willing to spend it but there's no time to do anything.

Whatever you execute, it has to be well done, even if the budget is small. You just bite off less. Paradise Pier set more in the 30's or 40's could have been true to a plaster walled "streamlined" architectural theme and perhaps been more convincing as a themed area. I don't know which would cost more but they used blown stucco on the buildings so it may be comparable. Sometimes you want to adjust the theme to fit your budget so what is done is a complete idea. It's hard to say what time period PP was intended to be set in, perhaps it's an abstraction, so I can't judge. I used to visit the Santa Cruz Boardwalk as a kid and recall the arcades and neon facades from the 30's with the glass block and plaster fins. Super cool. There were layers of the 20's wood coaster over the spires and plaster of the deco pavilions. They remind me of the new DCA "Pan Pacific" inspired entry being built now. The lighting at night is when PP looks the most magical. They went for the Victorian approach with the big bucks that I'm sure the designers would have loved to have had up front!

True, you have to do the best that you are given. I liked the sun wheel that was part of the pier, I don't like the huge mickey face, it just looks tacky. The mailbomber wouldn't have worked unless the theme was a modern boardwalk, which isn't something that disney would do; I feel the same way about the wild mouse ride they have, it doesn't fit the theme or feel. It also lacked a show, which color of magic fulfilled.

DCA could have worked with more money and better direction. Imagineers came up with the concept but the off shelve rides and off theming made it an adventure for dlr to market.

 

[ChrisFL]

Let's also not forget the horrid attraction they had in "Superstar Limo" at opening. I would have much rather they cloned another attraction than adding that...thing.

 

[flavious27]

Let's also not forget the horrid attraction they had in "Superstar Limo" at opening. I would have much rather they cloned another attraction than adding that...thing.

Watching the video of the ride now, the voice over track is just horrible in the queue area.

 

[ChrisFL]

...and apologies if you, Eddie, worked on Superstar Limo at all

 

[flavious27]

wow superstar limo looked horrible, how did this stuff get approved?