Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[flavious27]

They're about the same now (I believe AK beat DHS the year Everest opened), but in its early years, DHS was considered a very big success. It was built quickly, as a small, half day park and for not a lot of money (I think around $450 million). In its early years it would quickly reach capacity... requiring doubling of the parking lot in size and the swift addition of a number attractions (Star Tours, Muppets, Sunset Boulevard)

Check out this opening day guidebook:
http://www.florida-project.com/disney-hollywood-studios-guidebooks-guidemaps/1989-early
Like AK, there was very little to the park at opening, but it was enough to make the standard WDW vacation around a week (4-6 nights). That is where the huge payoff came.

By the time DAK came along, a lot of Americans were not going to extend their vacations into a second week to take advantage of all WDW had to offer.

can most americans take off of work for more than a week for a vacation?

 

[flavious27]

I always enjoy reading this thread, although I am imtimidated to contribute. Thanks to all who do though, and Happy New Year!

If you have an idea, put it out there.

 

[wishesjake]

This thread rules.

That is all.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Since this my the first post of 2011, how about some perspective in relation to time and theming?

Main Street USA's nostalgic "turn of the century" time period was set roughly 50 years earlier than the 1955 opening of Disneyland. So that would mean that if Main Street USA would have been built today using the 50 year hence formula (give or take), it's "nostalgic" time period could have circa 1960's. Maybe something like Andy Griffith's Mayberry? Interesting to ponder what an "It's a Wonderful life" (Bedford Falls) or "American Graffiti" type Main Street could have been. Today the theme is less nostalgic (as those who lived then are gone) and more nostalgic as it's own experience that is more than 50 and generated it's own memories for repeat guests.

 

[RandySavage]

The architectural aesthetics that came with the 1960s - Internationalism & Brutalism - don't exactly lend themselves to a comfortable, pleasing Main Street, as the Victorian, Neo-Georgian, or Art Deco styles of previous periods, so I think a Main Street reflecting the styles of the 1960s might feel a little sterile and cold.

That period also marked the Age of the Automobile, the Suburb & the Strip Mall and thereby the death of Main Street - not close to the warm or people-friendly world that Walt intended.

I doubt 50 years from now anyone would be happy to see a Main Street that reflects today' "Main Street" commercial centers:

 

[flavious27]

Since this my the first post of 2011, how about some perspective in relation to time and theming?

Main Street USA's nostalgic "turn of the century" time period was set roughly 50 years earlier than the 1955 opening of Disneyland. So that would mean that if Main Street USA would have been built today using the 50 year hence formula (give or take), it's "nostalgic" time period could have circa 1960's. Maybe something like Andy Griffith's Mayberry? Interesting to ponder what an "It's a Wonderful life" (Bedford Falls) or "American Graffiti" type Main Street could have been. Today the theme is less nostalgic (as those who lived then are gone) and more nostalgic as it's own experience that is more than 50 and generated it's own memories for repeat guests.

as randy mentioned the architecture of the time is not really warm. Also, main streets were starting to die because of malls and strip centers. now if you want to mention home architecture, that is different. You do have the ticky tacky levittown styles, but you also have the first use of split levels. Where I live in the delaware valley, the larger split levels with field stone are iconic and desirable.

Even though that most of us that visit disney see main street's style as nostalgic and did live when this style was used, that style is what he associate with a thriving and true main street. There are many main streets in South Jersey that have this theme still, though buildings of the last half century replaced some their neighbors. If Disney wanted to update how their Main Street looks in any future parks, the look of WB's town set that was used in gilmore girls would resonate with guests.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Layers and why they matter

Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day. Most cities aren't. They evolve and the buildings learn. They have many layers of design and culture that make the real. Western "boom towns' are the exception as their strength is they were erected overnight.

Main Street has a history that dates back far earlier than it's thematic time period. The "turn of the the century" is merely a moment, a "snapshot", of a work in progress. Gas lights from an earlier decade are giving way to new electric lights as well as horse and buggies from the early 1800's are mingling with the new fangled Autos. The architecture itself goes back to the mid 1800's. We were very conscious of creating those "layers" on the DLP MSUSA, as Paris has them already and you'd notice if they were not there. The Camera shop is an example of a building that was expanded by joining two different rooms, electric lights wired to the owner's taste.
http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/main_street_usa/town_square_photography.php

So when you say "small town America in the 1960's", I see Mayberry not Brazilia. Mayberry is a town from the teens and twenties with a crust of the current. Here's the movie backlot architecture from that TV show (Andy Griffith). It all looks pretty much 1920's with some western thrown in. It's just not the enameled high victorian of Main Street. The interiors are what would make it more 1960's. Like a toy store of 60'd toys, bikes, etc or hardware, etc.
http://www.retroweb.com/40acres_desilu_years.html

I appreciate how cold the modern architecture could look and frankly the solution to that was the 1967 T'land, which was (Eero Saarinen) optimistic sixties at it's height. The LAX Encounter was doing the sixties in that vein as well.

 

[xtina72]

:dazzle::fork:



:lol:


Like Martin said, I don't get it. A movie, a themed entrance with a visual illusion, and a relaxing ride through the tanks.

I think people are pulling the "EPCOT Center was boring" card on The Living Seas.

...and the song..make the song stop!!! It's Epcots it's a small world.

 

[RandySavage]

Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day. Most cities aren't. They evolve and the buildings learn. They have many layers of design and culture that make the real. Western "boom towns' are the exception as their strength is they were erected overnight.

Main Street has a history that dates back far earlier than it's thematic time period. The "turn of the the century" is merely a moment, a "snapshot", of a work in progress. Gas lights from an earlier decade are giving way to new electric lights as well as horse and buggies from the early 1800's are mingling with the new fangled Autos. The architecture itself goes back to the mid 1800's. We were very conscious of creating those "layers" on the DLP MSUSA, as Paris has them already and you'd notice if they were not there. The Camera shop is an example of a building that was expanded by joining two different rooms, electric lights wired to the owner's taste.
http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/main_street_usa/town_square_photography.php

So when you say "small town America in the 1960's", I see Mayberry not Brazilia. Mayberry is a town from the teens and twenties with a crust of the current. Here's the movie backlot architecture from that TV show (Andy Griffith). It all looks pretty much 1920's with some western thrown in. It's just not the enameled high victorian of Main Street. The interiors are what would make it more 1960's. Like a toy store of 60'd toys, bikes, etc or hardware, etc.
http://www.retroweb.com/40acres_desilu_years.html

I appreciate how cold the modern architecture could look and frankly the solution to that was the 1967 T'land, which was (Eero Saarinen) optimistic sixties at it's height. The LAX Encounter was doing the sixties in that vein as well.

I understand what you mean now when you say a "crust of the current". Tokyo DL starts to go this direction with its Art Deco Coffee House.

From the artwork on Disney&More, it seems that your famously-never-built 1920s/30s Main Street in Paris would have retained a lot of the Victorian turn-of-the-century architectural elements of traditional Disney Main Streets, with this crust of newer deco elements, and el train station, etc., as opposed to the Studios' 1930s Hollywood Blvd type re-do that bears no resemblance to the Disneyland Main Street.

How much of that never-built Main Street in Paris would have been recognizable as the traditional MS:USA style?

 

[lazyboy97o]

In its own time, "Main Street, USA" was nothing like it appeared at Disneyland. Street were often dirt and full of horse manure. Wires for electricity and telegraph were strewn around in mangled messes, even more were flung across the street if your city had an electric railway. We do not like to admit, because our minds are filled with Main Street, USA of Disneyland fame, but part of the reasons Americans were willing to flee Main Street is because it did have its own problems.

I think part of the reason that we may have a hard time romanticizing the 1960s is because that is the roots of our lives today. In the 1960s Walt Disney and other promised a future of high speed transit to help us conduct our business, instead so much of what would have made that desirable has been replaced by mass, instant communication in the form of the cell phone and the internet. We do not need to all travel across the country to have a meeting, we can do it from home because all of our laptops have a built-in webcam.

Also playing into this is that our mindset is no longer so willing to tear down the outdated and replace it with the new, a thought process that only really diminished during the 20th century. By the mid-1950s, a lot of what Walt Disney remembered was gone, today a lot of the 1950s/1960s is still sitting amongst us.

 

[HMF]

today a lot of the 1950s/1960s is still sitting amongst us.

Which is why it is absolutely necessary to have commercials announcing that the Beatles are now on ITunes.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

In its own time, "Main Street, USA" was nothing like it appeared at Disneyland. Street were often dirt and full of horse manure. Wires for electricity and telegraph were strewn around in mangled messes, even more were flung across the street if your city had an electric railway. We do not like to admit, because our minds are filled with Main Street, USA of Disneyland fame, but part of the reasons Americans were willing to flee Main Street is because it did have its own problems.

I think part of the reason that we may have a hard time romanticizing the 1960s is because that is the roots of our lives today. In the 1960s Walt Disney and other promised a future of high speed transit to help us conduct our business, instead so much of what would have made that desirable has been replaced by mass, instant communication in the form of the cell phone and the internet. We do not need to all travel across the country to have a meeting, we can do it from home because all of our laptops have a built-in webcam.

Also playing into this is that our mindset is no longer so willing to tear down the outdated and replace it with the new, a thought process that only really diminished during the 20th century. By the mid-1950s, a lot of what Walt Disney remembered was gone, today a lot of the 1950s/1960s is still sitting amongst us.

The buildings yes, but the complete living picture with every detail isn't, the "memory" is only what we retain or believe those times were. Disney lets you step into the childhood memory,never the historic reality.

Well it's safe to say that whatever Disney does is the "romanticized" version, that's what guests pay to see. What we wished those years were like. So it will always be brighter and more optimistic than the reality, even if it still exists.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Which is why it is absolutely necessary to have commercials announcing that the Beatles are now on ITunes.

Those ads are sheer nostalgia as if they are still with us. I stared at one of those Billboards for several minutes in traffic recently and the memories came flooding back. Weird.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The buildings yes, but the complete living picture with every detail isn't, the "memory" is only what we retain or believe those times were. Disney lets you step into the childhood memory,never the historic reality.

It has to be more than just the lack of the attention to detail that prevents a lot of people from romanticizing the 1960s. Of course, it could just be that nobody has really ever tried.

I think another issue is our more cynical view of history. Would today's audience accept a 1960s townscape that is devoid of references to the Civil Rights Movement or the Vietnam War, or is there a place for a Main Street, USA that more follows the precedent of places like Harambe and Anandapur of Disney's Animal Kingdom?

Does anybody here watch Mad Men? I do not, but it does seem to invoke a lot of positive responses in terms of its attention to detail and design.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It has to be more than just the lack of the attention to detail that prevents a lot of people from romanticizing the 1960s. Of course, it could just be that nobody has really ever tried.

I think another issue is our more cynical view of history. Would today's audience accept a 1960s townscape that is devoid of references to the Civil Rights Movement or the Vietnam War, or is there a place for a Main Street, USA that more follows the precedent of places like Harambe and Anandapur of Disney's Animal Kingdom?

Does anybody here watch Mad Men? I do not, but it does seem to invoke a lot of positive responses in terms of its attention to detail and design.

It does. But again, it's not the period as much as it the story or premise. You would never call it sixties land. Disney is the "musical" version of history to a degree. You are not a museum and are not obligated as such. It would first be a place, like Andy Griffith's Mayberry for example, and it's organic romance. Main Street happens to be set in the 1890-1910 era, but it's not really about that, that is the wrapper for something that tastes very different.

The real 1890's was not fun either. Viewed through the real social lens those buildings housed sweat shops and squalor. Rent the Milos Forman film "Ragtime". We used it as a design inspiration for Main Street (music from the soundtrack plays on Main Street today!), but it was about terrorism injustice, and racism.

The Encounter Restaurant at LAX completely romanticizes the Space Age 60's with a "Jet Set" soundtrack. Nothing is literal except the music.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2008/07/theme-building-encounter-restaurant-wdi.html

That's what marries it to an Airport. There were groups that expected the place to be restored to it's 1961 interior, but that was really bland and would not attract anyone. Too literal and like the images you show very cold. We looked to the Exterior of the building for the design direction as it was optimistic and a dream of that time. A social statement in concrete. We went from there. The design serves the glamourous "Jet Set dream". Mad Men is a social commentary wrapped in cigarettes and sharkskin suits. It's the packaging of the story. Austin Powers lampoons it all while Andy Griffith brings us a cop show with no violence. Both are the 60's and have a different spin as they are socially based. I think the key here is that to make the 60's far enough removed, you'd have to do what Disney did the to 1890's, make it small town and an obscure reference. If Walt had done 1890's Chicago it would look just like it did in 1955, save the cars, etc. Small towns are already quaint, weather it's Mayberry or Mayfield from the Absent Minded Professor. You make them warm and cuddly. Corbusier is not found there, but American Flyer bikes and Aunt Bee are. It would represent the last gasp of innocence in America before the Hippies and Vietnam took over. Retailers today have taken the peace/love 60's as a cultural metaphor and done fashion over as a new political and social movement. Like the excess of Mad Men to one group, the politics of peace, or the free love of the 70's disco era, the romance of the past gets repositioned to meet an audience that was not even alive to experience it the first time. It become theirs by a new social identification.


Theming is interesting as all you are doing is identifying an emotional need and filling it with something people long for but can't express. The discussion is, as we pass through through the years, those dreams change and the symbolism of the lands come to mean something different to each generation. What I think has happened is that the nostalgia comes not from the theme of the land, but from the park overall, as people love that the park has not changed and that is the treasured memory, not that it reminds them of some historic moment, etc. So Main Street works primarily as itself, not because it's a shred of the 1890s. It is intrinsically wonderful as a memory to be relived of its own.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Tronification

Saw Tron legacy last night. Quite the little Tomorrowland they have going there. Beautiful industrial design. I liked how it connected fashion, graphics and transportation design. I wished I'd seen it in Imax. It was a bit dark and Matrix-like in that there was an overall coldness to it. It's too bad it was not a blockbuster in their terms over the holidays, as that may have killed any hopes of Attraction application.

The funny thing is that some of the best rides in the parks are from movies that did horribly or were shorts. Mr. Toad and Pooh were from short subject collections, not blockbusters, and "Alice in Wonderland" which in DL has two rides based on it (Tea Cups and Dark ride) was a disaster at the Box Office. "Pinocchio" didn't even do that well. We chose Alice for TDL's Queen of Hearts Restaurant because the "Wonderland" world was unique and immersive, not because of how well they knew the movie. Tron to me is the same way to a degree. (Of course, I'd love to see the failed TDL "Rocket Bikes" resurrected as the "Tron Cycles" at DL.). The Tron "world" is unique and immersive too with elements that can be fun like the Cycles, as proven in the successful ElecTRONica club thing they are doing at DCA.

 

[MKeeler]

Main Street

Re: 1960s Main Street

In addition to Mayberry as inspiration, I would think Main Street could be based on mid-sized cities and suburbs. The late 1950s and early 1960s by way of Grease, Happy Days, Pleasantville, etc. A Main Street still populated by an Emporium like Woolworths, a soda fountain (or pharmacy with soda counter), and greasy spoon diner.

Entertainment also becomes a big part of setting the scene, with perhaps the "High School" band instead of the Main Street band and a daily homecoming parade/pep rally for the local team.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Re: 1960s Main Street

In addition to Mayberry as inspiration, I would think Main Street could be based on mid-sized cities and suburbs. The late 1950s and early 1960s by way of Grease, Happy Days, Pleasantville, etc. A Main Street still populated by an Emporium like Woolworths, a soda fountain (or pharmacy with soda counter), and greasy spoon diner.

Entertainment also becomes a big part of setting the scene, with perhaps the "High School" band instead of the Main Street band and a daily homecoming parade/pep rally for the local team.

That does not sound cold at all. BTW one of the most successful events at DL was "Blast from the past" where they made main street over into the fifties with the characters music,cars, etc . Big hit with the guests.

 

[MKeeler]

That does not sound cold at all. BTW one of the most successful events at DL was "Blast from the past" where they made main street over into the fifties with the characters music,cars, etc . Big hit with the guests.

And that's what I got fromt the points you were making previously. Nearly any past age could work, it's just choosing the appropriate reference to get the best response. With the sixties, there are a lot of options (the Mad Men aesthetics as mentioned previously, the sock-hop carry over from the 1950s, the rise of beach and hippie cultures, etc.). The "Blast from the Past" seems to resonate well.

I know I'd love a Disneyland varsity letter jacket.

[And you could also get a bit self-referntial in that time period by stocking the stores with vintage Disney memorabilia and retro Mickey Mouse club merchandise and having the cinema show time period appropriate shorts.]

 

[wickedfan07]

Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day. Most cities aren't. They evolve and the buildings learn. They have many layers of design and culture that make the real. Western "boom towns' are the exception as their strength is they were erected overnight.

Main Street has a history that dates back far earlier than it's thematic time period. The "turn of the the century" is merely a moment, a "snapshot", of a work in progress. ... The architecture itself goes back to the mid 1800's. We were very conscious of creating those "layers" on the DLP MSUSA, as Paris has them already and you'd notice if they were not there. ...

I really enjoy this description of Main Street as a snapshot. I have never taken the time to really explore Main Street (or Hollywood Boulevard for that matter). Next time I visit WDW, I think I will really take my time in exploring Main Street. And if I ever make it to Paris, I'll definitely be taking lots of time to explore that Main Street.

As I said, I've never really examined any one area of the parks so closely to know how the idea of layering the story was being applied. However, something I've wished for is this kind of layering of time periods in Hollywood Studios, specifically in the area around Echo Lake, Star Tours and up through to the Streets of America backlot sets. If Hollywood Boulevared represented the 1930s and Sunset Boulevard represented the 1940s, then why shouldn't the rest of the park represent other decades in the 20th century? I know we already have the Prime Time Cafe, but I always wondered if the idea could be expanded upon.

Re: 1960s Main Street

In addition to Mayberry as inspiration, I would think Main Street could be based on mid-sized cities and suburbs. The late 1950s and early 1960s by way of Grease, Happy Days, Pleasantville, etc. A Main Street still populated by an Emporium like Woolworths, a soda fountain (or pharmacy with soda counter), and greasy spoon diner.

Entertainment also becomes a big part of setting the scene, with perhaps the "High School" band instead of the Main Street band and a daily homecoming parade/pep rally for the local team.

Something similar to this is what I pictured for that area, especially with the entertainment. Like Main Street, it's a snapshot of America that we can't get back to anymore. It's something we only see in movies. Like someone said earlier, it's like the last gasp of American innocence. Is this sort of layering already evident in this area of the Studios? Something tells me that given the hodgepodge of Drew Carey, Indiana jones and American Idol in this area that it isn't. It just seems to me that this particular area is a good spot in the parks where this type of layering could be put to very good and appropriate use.