Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Or drop a crown in your drink, speaking of hijacking ever have any thoughts to re-purpose discovery island

Yes. In fact, WDI has proposed countless redos of the island over the years. Many great suggestions too, but there are always issues of remotely servicing it and it's relatively low capacity. I hope they finally decide to do something great with it.
 

sublimesting

Well-Known Member
I just returned from Hawaii and did the same thing! I did not know about the age aspect, very interesting. The romance of the high seas still grabs me. While on the beach reading, I was listening to this Album, the same tracks played on the SS Columbia at DL.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/songs-of-the-sea/id330875002


If you are a Tall Ships/Pirate nut like me you may enjoy playing "Sid Meier's "Pirates!" PC and now Wii Game.

http://www.2kgames.com/pirates/wii/us/


I have been meaning to give Sid Meier's Pirates a go. I think I will.
What always amused me about the reasoning behind WDW's initial lack of POC was that Floridians would be used to pirates. Like, "Those Floridians encounter pirates every day. The ride would be like going to work for them...just a normal day in their bateaux's"
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I have been meaning to give Sid Meier's Pirates a go. I think I will.
What always amused me about the reasoning behind WDW's initial lack of POC was that Floridians would be used to pirates. Like, "Those Floridians encounter pirates every day. The ride would be like going to work for them...just a normal day in their bateaux's"

It IS funny. How silly. The "Caribbean Plaza" looks like something pretty generic as that type of Spanish Architecture is pretty common and done better in Florida. Making it even more "fortress" derived and an exotic hideout may have been a better approach. The pirates game plays down the violence and plays up the piratical economics and personal story of your career as a privateer. Very addictive.
 

sublimesting

Well-Known Member
It IS funny. How silly. The "Caribbean Plaza" looks like something pretty generic as that type of Spanish Architecture is pretty common and done better in Florida. Making it even more "fortress" derived and an exotic hideout may have been a better approach. The pirates game plays down the violence and plays up the piratical economics and personal story of your career as a privateer. Very addictive.


I do notice that POC in WDW has no line ever. Do you think that the days of "show" rides is nearing the end of their populrity in favor of "hands on" rides like TSMWM or SRS? It seems to me that kids now days have to interact with everything and are losing their attention spans. This saddens me in a way because the interactive rides seem cheaper and very often screen based with a great loss of the environmental detail "sights" in favor of touching and doing. In 25 years Disney could be one big riding shootin' gallery
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I do notice that POC in WDW has no line ever. Do you think that the days of "show" rides is nearing the end of their populrity in favor of "hands on" rides like TSMWM or SRS? It seems to me that kids now days have to interact with everything and are losing their attention spans. This saddens me in a way because the interactive rides seem cheaper and very often screen based with a great loss of the environmental detail "sights" in favor of touching and doing. In 25 years Disney could be one big riding shootin' gallery

I don't know...I think POTC has a high capacity, so the lines are usually pretty short anyway...they could add FP, then the lines will be a lot longer :lookaroun
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
Yes. In fact, WDI has proposed countless redos of the island over the years. Many great suggestions too, but there are always issues of remotely servicing it and it's relatively low capacity. I hope they finally decide to do something great with it.

Or drop a crown in your drink, speaking of hijacking ever have any thoughts to re-purpose discovery island


I heard/was told that another issue with Discovery Island was that it had the distinction of being a zoological park...and that once a place recieved that designation that it couldn't be (or was very hard) to reverse that designation. Is there truth to that?

btw, I also found it interesting that thousands and THOUSANDS of birds still call the area that was the bird sanctuary was home. We took one of those firewords tours one night and it was pretty neat to see all of the birds when the boat pilot shined a high powered flashlight towards the trees on the island.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I heard/was told that another issue with Discovery Island was that it had the distinction of being a zoological park...and that once a place recieved that designation that it couldn't be (or was very hard) to reverse that designation. Is there truth to that?

btw, I also found it interesting that thousands and THOUSANDS of birds still call the area that was the bird sanctuary was home. We took one of those firewords tours one night and it was pretty neat to see all of the birds when the boat pilot shined a high powered flashlight towards the trees on the island.

I was not assigned to WDW (my portfolio was DL) so I'm not privy to the details of it's limitations, but was involved in creative meetings for the Island from time to time. Yes the birds kind of own it. i heard once they were considering doing wedding cottages out there so the bird sanctuary seems flexible. There was a time when our concept development studio proposed (and almost built) "Myst Island", based on the then popular Myst and Riven CDROM Games.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I do notice that POC in WDW has no line ever. Do you think that the days of "show" rides is nearing the end of their populrity in favor of "hands on" rides like TSMWM or SRS? It seems to me that kids now days have to interact with everything and are losing their attention spans. This saddens me in a way because the interactive rides seem cheaper and very often screen based with a great loss of the environmental detail "sights" in favor of touching and doing. In 25 years Disney could be one big riding shootin' gallery

True in my book. If you ask my kids who are now 11, they won't go on POTC as they see it as boring. They will only ride it backwards to see the infrared lights! They like the more interactive stuff, which is to them something like Tom Sawyer's Island, or driving Autopia cars. It does not have to be high tech. They love digital "treasure hunts" so "next gen" would probably appeal to them.
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
Not to sidetrack the discussion but I noticed the exterior of the Riviera in a Volkswagen Commercial last night. Looked great, I assume you have a fan Crispin Porter? :D
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Not to sidetrack the discussion but I noticed the exterior of the Riviera in a Volkswagen Commercial last night. Looked great, I assume you have a fan Crispin Porter? :D

Hmmm. I'm not aware of a VW commercial. Will look into that, thanks. They shot an Escalade ad where the car pulls up in front of the bronze facade of the restaurant, but that was a year or more ago. They shot CSI-LA there too last year using the interior for a gunfight. We have Agencies come into the restaurant frequently, so I think they may be aware of us. thanks for letting me know, now you got me curious! I think VW dropped Crispin Porter. Too bad because they do the best work!
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
Wow, I would follow up for sure. As a producer, I know you need to have a location release if you are using someone's name and identity (And you usually pay them a location fee and have them sign a release, but being from LA, you already know this :D ). I can tell you it was a dealer spot, mostly comprised of running footage, but the riviera name and exterior are prominent for at least 2 seconds within the middle of the spot.

FYI you are right, the new Agency of record for VW is Deutsch LA.

EDIT: as of 2pm, the video on the bottom of this website is running the spot, it is in the first 3 seconds of the spot.
http://www.detroitvwdealers.com/?sem=222828092;cs:e=g&cs:pro=vwmc
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Wow, I would follow up for sure. As a producer, I know you need to have a location release if you are using someone's name and identity (And you usually pay them a location fee and have them sign a release, but being from LA, you already know this :D ). I can tell you it was a dealer spot, mostly comprised of running footage, but the riviera name and exterior are prominent for at least 2 seconds within the middle of the spot.

FYI you are right, the new Agency of record for VW is Deutsch LA.

EDIT: as of 2pm, the video on the bottom of this website is running the spot, it is in the first 3 seconds of the spot.
http://www.detroitvwdealers.com/?sem=222828092;cs:e=g&cs:pro=vwmc

Good eye! I watched the video and you are right, the name is legible in the shot. I will have to ask my partners if we got anything for that of if we signed a release.

Speaking of VW commercials, my uncle Fabian Dean was an actor and was featured as the "18 millionth customer" in this ad with another not famous yet actor MacLean Stevenson. Funny Spot for the early 70's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMDyySg1Tsc&feature=related
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
That is a great spot, when I was at the Center for Creative Studies in Detroit struggling to be an Art Director :D, VW's advertising was mandatory studying, as was any old copy of Archive magazine and CA. They were like gold in those days to an broke art student whose lunch consisted of Mountain Dew and whatever you could choke down between classes, ahhh ... the memories. :lol:
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Spelling of Laffite.

I just finished listening to "Patriotic Fire", a book on the Battle of New Orleans. Very good I might add. I learned that the name of Lafitte was misspelled many ways by various authors, but the most accurate spelling (according to this author) is actually "Laffite", as the sign on the POTC boarding dock declares! The popular spelling is Lafitte. Here's a purported letter to his wife hand signed.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/5/2980/1024/lettertoemma.jpg


The dock sign..

http://www.tellnotales.com/

As the anchor says with it's misspelled name, "don't believe everything you read!"
 

SeaCastle

Well-Known Member
Hey Eddie, have you read The Pirates Laffite by William Davis? I've owned the book for a few years now but haven't started reading it yet. I've also bought Patriot Pirates, which I assume would include aspects of the Laffites in there.

With regards to Caribbean Plaza, I would go as far to call it a smaller incarnation of New Orleans Square. I can understand how the architecture looks "typical", but as I've read through the excellent Passport2Dreams blog, it's so multi-layered, intricate, and beautiful that it deserves a bit more attention. With its courtyards and small pathways, it emulates Disneyland's style of park planning instead of the Magic Kingdom's wide-open pathways and avenues. Though parts of Caribbean Plaza had been lost over the years (fountains, steel drum background music loop, live steel drum band, etc.) the romantic atmosphere is hardly lost.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Hey Eddie, have you read The Pirates Laffite by William Davis? I've owned the book for a few years now but haven't started reading it yet. I've also bought Patriot Pirates, which I assume would include aspects of the Laffites in there.

With regards to Caribbean Plaza, I would go as far to call it a smaller incarnation of New Orleans Square. I can understand how the architecture looks "typical", but as I've read through the excellent Passport2Dreams blog, it's so multi-layered, intricate, and beautiful that it deserves a bit more attention. With its courtyards and small pathways, it emulates Disneyland's style of park planning instead of the Magic Kingdom's wide-open pathways and avenues. Though parts of Caribbean Plaza had been lost over the years (fountains, steel drum background music loop, live steel drum band, etc.) the romantic atmosphere is hardly lost.

I bought Davis' book today for $1.90! Will Give CP another chance next time I'm out there. I've seen so much themed Spanish Colonial Architecture being from SoCal, I think I may be too jaded to see it's good aspects. Will try and be more open. Thanks.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
I do notice that POC in WDW has no line ever. Do you think that the days of "show" rides is nearing the end of their populrity in favor of "hands on" rides like TSMWM or SRS? It seems to me that kids now days have to interact with everything and are losing their attention spans. This saddens me in a way because the interactive rides seem cheaper and very often screen based with a great loss of the environmental detail "sights" in favor of touching and doing. In 25 years Disney could be one big riding shootin' gallery

Man, you need to tell me when you go, because I've never seen POTC without a long line.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Man, you need to tell me when you go, because I've never seen POTC without a long line.

I can't speak for WDW, but DL POTC usually has a comparatively short line, but don't forget, the hourly capacity of that Attraction is huge. So it can eat down it's line during meal off peak hours. Low capacity rides just get further behind till the line edits itself because the guest decides the wait is too long.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Laffite mega theme

On the HM blog (http://longforgottenhauntedmansion....fitte-and-mega-theme-temptation.html#comments) I just posted the opinion below on the notions of having "megathemes" that tie attractions together. Some expressed feelings that too much story threatens your personal ability to project yourself or your own ideas into the lands and are too restrictive.

Here's another perspective on how having historic or deeper subplots to the story enriches the show on the surface without unreasonable restriction.

"My take is that the "mega theme" would be so subtle that only those who want to dig for it can see or find it. I never intended to use the Laffite name on or in any obvious connection with the Mansion, only on the Crypt (entry to the pirate island catacomb) in the adjacent graveyard... The POTC ride itself has virtually no connection save to say there is a sign over the dock. It's more the NOS to TSI connection that makes it compelling but that is never shown only implied by history. You'd learn that later by researching it.

So all I'm saying is that you can have a backstory that is very very below the radar and still dream what you want. The SS Columbia has a very strict historical story, but it doesn't prohibit me from imagining what I want and enjoying "the days of wooden ships and iron men". I do feel that the ship having a strong foot in history informed the design and detail to the point where it made the work compelling and not cartoony, so I could layer on my own fantasy. Too many projects today have little basis in any research so they look and feel derivative and kitchy, the details falling flat. Having a historic backstory, even if it's only to inform the design enough to suspend disbelief provides that service."
(edited)
 

WDITrent

Active Member
I liked the mega-theme idea. It did save a lot of room for the imagination. There's another way a story can become too much story in my opinion, though. You may find my post interesting because it mostly concerns Disneyland.

This is my post from another site:

I am always thinking about how unique Disneyland is not just because of how a guestexperiences it, but how Imagineers produce it. No one does anything like Disneyland to the extent of WDI. It's a very special art because unlike a single flat piece of artwork, it's three dimensional. Unlike a movie, the audience must walk around the artwork. Unlike a sculpture, it must convincingly transport you. Do you know any other art that specializes in that?

I believe what makes Disneyland special is the way they have produced their attractions over the years. There are things that you can do in movies that you can't do in rides (especially the case 50 years ago), and there are certain things you can do in rides that you can't do in a film. Thus, they've created a whole new art out of it. It's not just a set. It's Disneyland.

Now, I love rides like Indiana Jones Adventure, Tower of Terror, Expedition Everest, and from the looks of it, Journey to the Center of the Earth. But I have one little problem with all of them. They all shove the story down your throat. This works for these rides, but it seems WDI is losing sight of the more subtle but powerful stories of the Haunted Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Space Mountain which implied the story.

Think of Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage. Probably my huge problem with that is not because it is movie based, but they take the whole beginning telling us why we are there and where we are going, and they're not over by the time we turn on the sonar hydrophones. Now we have to establish another story in which Marlin and Dory are looking for Nemo again, doing everything they did last time. Predictable, I think, and not worth the time. In this case, especially in which guests are going to be stuck in a submarine for seven minutes, you're going to want to have the sub excursion to be the main focus. Not a story happening outside our plans to see the volcano that we shouldn't even care about. We want things to happen to us, not Nemo. Too much story for too little time.

Here’s why I think story-light attractions are so successful: People sometimes complain about book-based movies because they enjoyed seeing their own visions while reading the story. Films
can’t really afford to be light on story; they’ll lose the audience’s attention. But Disneyland classics like the Haunted Mansion gave you a feast for the senses, and suggested a progression through different emotional highlights in the attraction. The guest makes the story. See now? A reader reading a book creates the vision in their mind, and the guest riding an attraction creates the story themselves. Opposites, but the same in the way they are appreciated.

You can see from the history of classic story-light rides that they didn’t take less time due to the lack of an obvious storyline. The Haunted Mansion took several years to develop before
beginning construction, and even after that it was seven more years of majorly altering the attraction before it was completed. Space Mountain took a total of twelve years from concept to Magic Kingdom, and it has one of the simplest stories in the parks. And yet it is still so powerful.

What if WDI went back to its Haunted Mansion/Pirates of the Caribbean/Space Mountain roots and created a ride where the guest formed the story? Well, I don’t think they’re heading in that direction with such rides as The Little Mermaid, Radiator Springs Racers, and storyline-driven Mystic Manor.

That brings up an interesting topic. How do I feel about these? I think The Little Mermaid will be unique in that it is based on something other than the actual story. The same could be said about Fantasyland Dark Rides of opening day Disneyland. For Mr. Toad, it was a dream sequence. For Little Mermaid, it’s music. Still, it seems that characters like Scuttle will still be creeping up on us and feeding us little bits of story here and there. Seems a little extraneous, but I’ll reserve judgment until I see it for myself. I’m afraid that Radiator Springs Racers will fall victim to FNSV syndrome, but at least we will be characters in the story this time as participating in a race. Mystic Manor has not intrigued me since the presentation at D23. Rehash of existing stories available at WDI with very little subtlety.

Having said that, however, I won’t hate an attraction for having a story. It will not affect my enjoyment of a ride purely for what it is. I look forward to these rides, especially Little Mermaid and Radiator Springs Racers, which I believe will turn out positively beautiful.

Still, maybe someday WDI will realize its roots and do something similar to the classic subtle yet powerful rides it created back in the 60s and 70s. After all, those attractions showcase the art so obscure anywhere but Disneyland. It’s the special kind of magic that (and I’m serious) only Disney can do.
 
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