Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Mansion Butler]

For those who don't know Jeff Burke was Show Producer for Frontierland at DLP.

If I could, I'd like to use this as a prompt for a side discussion (primarily because I'd like Eddie's take since he was involved in DLP).

Walt's famous "we'll take care of the outside and let the ghosts take care of the inside" line was and has been applied to Disneyland's Haunted Mansion, with the exterior looking nice and hiding the true intent of the interior.

The Haunted Mansions since, though, are run down and dilapidated. Phantom Manor, in particular.

What do people think of this? Should everything exterior in the parks be neat and pretty, or is the place making of a haunted mansion, which usually for us is not something that looks nice on the outside, more important? I could also extend this to the "authenticity" of places like Harambe and Anandapur, that are intentionally made to look unclean and worn down. Does anyone have any insight as to how, if at all, Imagineers have wrestled with Walt's wishes vs. the typical idea of a haunted house's looks in the subsequent parks?

I know it's often wrong to disagree with Walt, but I do on this one. I think an old, scary house should look old and scary from the moment you lay eyes on it. Not so run down it's an eye sore, but clearly abandoned and in disrepair.

 

[KevinYee]

Walt's vision was only the guiding principle for a short while in some cases. The diminutive Anaheim castle was meant to stay small and thus not "lord over" the visitors ... but it became just such a grand castle in Orlando.

The idealized Africa of Walt's Adventureland gave way to Joe's Harambe Village, where dilapidation and destitution are on display, something Walt would probably not have liked.

And then there's Paradise Pier...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Walt's vision was only the guiding principle for a short while in some cases. The diminutive Anaheim castle was meant to stay small and thus not "lord over" the visitors ... but it became just such a grand castle in Orlando.

FWIW- Herb Ryman once told me that Walt wanted a big Castle but could not afford it. His first rendering that Walt directed showed something much grander. I wonder what the bankers thought when they showed up and saw the final?

The idealized Africa of Walt's Adventureland gave way to Joe's Harambe Village, where dilapidation and destitution are on display, something Walt would probably not have liked.[/QUOTE]

It's funny in a way that Harambe Village is still romanticized in a functional way (westernized, working toilets, safe food, etc.), just not visually.

 

[KevinYee]

FWIW- Herb Ryman once told me that Walt wanted a big Castle but could not afford it. His first rendering that Walt directed showed something much grander. I wonder what the bankers thought when they showed up and saw the final?

Great info. You need to write a book

Bruce and David were pretty adamant about Walt's stated desire for a smaller castle, but there's just no arguing with Herb. He was, after all, there. And we can't ask Bruce or David any more where they got that impression from

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If I could, I'd like to use this as a prompt for a side discussion (primarily because I'd like Eddie's take since he was involved in DLP).

Walt's famous "we'll take care of the outside and let the ghosts take care of the inside" line was and has been applied to Disneyland's Haunted Mansion, with the exterior looking nice and hiding the true intent of the interior.

The Haunted Mansions since, though, are run down and dilapidated. Phantom Manor, in particular.

What do people think of this? Should everything exterior in the parks be neat and pretty, or is the place making of a haunted mansion, which usually for us is not something that looks nice on the outside, more important? I could also extend this to the "authenticity" of places like Harambe and Anandapur, that are intentionally made to look unclean and worn down. Does anyone have any insight as to how, if at all, Imagineers have wrestled with Walt's wishes vs. the typical idea of a haunted house's looks in the subsequent parks?

I know it's often wrong to disagree with Walt, but I do on this one. I think an old, scary house should look old and scary from the moment you lay eyes on it. Not so run down it's an eye sore, but clearly abandoned and in disrepair.

I think Tony took the plunge into scenically "aging" materials with Big Thunder Mtn. Once that idea became accepted the mold was shattered.

There is a certain truth to the fact that once you age something you are less motivated to maintain it as it's easy to be seduced into natural aging. Where does it end. And to a degree there are people that will think it's run down.

Here's my two cents.

If you look at movies as a barometer of culture, they have evolved toward greater and grittier realism. From the melodramatic silents to film noir and the "used " Space look pioneered by "Star Wars" and "Silent Running", "wear and patina" have played a part in the evolution of suspending disbelief. Even acting evolved to being more realistic in dialog and portrayal. I know in dealing with Main Street for DLP that we would age portions of the interiors of it as it served the "layered" story of the stores going through renovations with different owners. The Film "Hello Dolly!" which was such an inspiration for MSUSA DLP was aged heavily as it depicted old New York. We didn't go that far, but we spoke more to the idea that despite the heavy wear in the film, it was still romantic and optimistic as a whole. That was more the point.

So when you look at how Walt saw things, it was his version of the past, and his version it was not much different than the movies that portrayed it in that era. Not a bulletproof take on this, but it's a perspective.

 

[HMF]

So when you look at how Walt saw things, it was his version of the past, and his version it was not much different than the movies that portrayed it in that era. Not a bulletproof take on this, but it's a perspective.

Another interesting thing to note is tricks your memories play on you. Many people (myself included) think that their childhoods were better than they probably were.

 

[mrksmpsn]

The Run Down Look

You are so on target with the natural aging (run down look) versus intended aging confusing the guests. In the Beach Club Villas (DVC) the furniture was aged (stressed? I think they call it) so that the table tops had patches where there was "worn off" paint. It made the rooms look old and not kept up. We've noticed that look has been discontinued in the rooms, probably because it was easy to misinterpret the look as poorly kept up rooms.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

You are so on target with the natural aging (run down look) versus intended aging confusing the guests. In the Beach Club Villas (DVC) the furniture was aged (stressed? I think they call it) so that the table tops had patches where there was "worn off" paint. It made the rooms look old and not kept up. We've noticed that look has been discontinued in the rooms, probably because it was easy to misinterpret the look as poorly kept up rooms.

It's called "Shabby Chic"

 

[wdwmagic]

You may already know this, but the parts of the two brothers were played by imagineers John Olson and Jeff Burke.

Very cool, I didn't know that. Do you know of any other Imagineer appearances in Disney attractions?

 

[4 Park Central]

For those who don't know Jeff Burke was Show Producer for Frontierland at DLP.

John Olson is also a wonderful character facades designer - he has worked on virtually all of the parks but TDS is really his crowning achievement - particularly in Arabian Coast.

John was let go after HKDL opened - another huge loss. Thankfully his equally wonderful wife Katie still works at WDI. She is probably the best color stylist since Mary Blair - her eye for color is evident in places like Discovery Island at DAK and it's a small world in Hong Kong Disneyland. Katie is a shy person but she was interviewed by the Laughingplace magazine in the past:

http://www.talesfromthelaughingplace.com/TalesfromtheLaughingPlaceIssue12.html

 

[4 Park Central]

Very cool, I didn't know that. Do you know of any other Imagineer appearances in Disney attractions?

There are so many - from the well-known like Tom Fitzgerald as the son in Horizons to safety spiels like Star Tours and Soarin' to the less-known like Joe Rohde as Harrison Hightower for TDS' Tower of Terror (the only time I can think of that the lead character for an attraction has been an imagineer). Theme Park Productions is always keen to insert imagineers in the background of their pre-shows and attractions.

 

[4 Park Central]

This thread prompted me to go back to the EuroDisneyland article from Laughingplace magazine too as there was something nagging me at the back of my head.

When I opened it up I noticed that WDI obviously only allowed them to interview existing imagineers about the park - only Tietz, Delaney, Morris and Baxter. What a terrible shame that neither Eddie nor Jeff were invited to discuss their contributions to the park. It is a great piece with a lot of development art though. The opening spread is my favorite to date with the funky trees that surround the castle:

 

[Mansion Butler]

I think Tony took the plunge into scenically "aging" materials with Big Thunder Mtn. Once that idea became accepted the mold was shattered.

There is a certain truth to the fact that once you age something you are less motivated to maintain it as it's easy to be seduced into natural aging. Where does it end. And to a degree there are people that will think it's run down.

Here's my two cents.

If you look at movies as a barometer of culture, they have evolved toward greater and grittier realism. From the melodramatic silents to film noir and the "used " Space look pioneered by "Star Wars" and "Silent Running", "wear and patina" have played a part in the evolution of suspending disbelief. Even acting evolved to being more realistic in dialog and portrayal. I know in dealing with Main Street for DLP that we would age portions of the interiors of it as it served the "layered" story of the stores going through renovations with different owners. The Film "Hello Dolly!" which was such an inspiration for MSUSA DLP was aged heavily as it depicted old New York. We didn't go that far, but we spoke more to the idea that despite the heavy wear in the film, it was still romantic and optimistic as a whole. That was more the point.

So when you look at how Walt saw things, it was his version of the past, and his version it was not much different than the movies that portrayed it in that era. Not a bulletproof take on this, but it's a perspective.

Wow, far more of an answer than I expected, thank you. Relating it to the evolution of movies is a good perspective.

 

[Mansion Butler]

You are so on target with the natural aging (run down look) versus intended aging confusing the guests. In the Beach Club Villas (DVC) the furniture was aged (stressed? I think they call it) so that the table tops had patches where there was "worn off" paint. It made the rooms look old and not kept up. We've noticed that look has been discontinued in the rooms, probably because it was easy to misinterpret the look as poorly kept up rooms.

I'm torn on doing this at times. Like your example in the villas, I think it can go too far.

My example would be the Backlot Express. That place is a very, very convincing piece of place making. To the point where once eating there in sandals, I was thinking I needed closed toed shoes lest I kick a rusty nail on accident, before remembering I was in Disney World. It's very well done, but, at the same time, I'm not sure it's a theme that's comfortable to be in.

I'm certainly no expert on what the people want, though.

 

[ChrisFL]

I have TONS of respect for Joe Rhode, but I think one of the reasons why I'm less enthralled with AK than the other parks is because it IS more of a realistic view of Africa, India, etc., and not an idealistic view of things.

Compare that to the World Showcase or DisneySea, which has lands and areas based on realism, but they're idealized, brand new looking areas. To me that is what Disney was all about for a long time...places that are better than reality, not replicating it :shrug:

 

[Mansion Butler]

I have TONS of respect for Joe Rhode, but I think one of the reasons why I'm less enthralled with AK than the other parks is because it IS more of a realistic view of Africa, India, etc., and not an idealistic view of things.

That's one of the biggest reasons it's my favorite park that doesn't have a castle.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I have TONS of respect for Joe Rhode, but I think one of the reasons why I'm less enthralled with AK than the other parks is because it IS more of a realistic view of Africa, India, etc., and not an idealistic view of things.

Compare that to the World Showcase or DisneySea, which has lands and areas based on realism, but they're idealized, brand new looking areas. To me that is what Disney was all about for a long time...places that are better than reality, not replicating it :shrug:

It is tough in the sense that if you go the former route, you have Adventureland which is just across the property. I remember being in a meeting once where they were discussing how to differentiate Adventureland from AK. The JC and fake animals was a point of discussion as well. The MK was supposed to be more fantasy, far away places, adventure, character driven and romanticized. The AK with real critters was to be more realistic in tone. Joe Rohde is the perfect Imagineer to inject his own personal passion into that park and to me it works because of that. Joe is a good friend and a great talent. One time we teamed up to present a live Pirate concept for DL NOS. We burst into the executive conference room as Pirates with swords, and held them to Wells and Eisner's throats! How fun was that! Another time we drove all night across the french countryside to see Le Mont St Michel. Joe has a great recollection of both art history (he taught it) and architecture so there is always something to talk about!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Very cool, I didn't know that. Do you know of any other Imagineer appearances in Disney attractions?

Tom Fitzgerald was this teenage AA figure in Horizons.
The opening crew of Star Tours was in the safety video.
I play lots of voices in the park, like the upstairs windows on Main Street, Space Mountain, BTM, Steam Train, etc. So do some other Imagineers like Mike West.

Most of the media hosting is done today by actors you know, so the Imagineers are less prominent in recent years.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Tom Fitzgerald was this teenage AA figure in Horizons.
The opening crew of Star Tours was in the safety video.
I play lots of voices in the park, like the upstairs windows on Main Street, Space Mountain, BTM, Steam Train, etc. So do some other Imagineers like Mike West.

Most of the media hosting is done today by actors you know, so the Imagineers are less prominent in recent years.

Joe Rhode is Harrison Hightower III at Tokyo DisneySEA's Tower of Terror.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Joe Rhode is Harrison Hightower III at Tokyo DisneySEA's Tower of Terror.

YES. Standing corrected! I forgot about that. And most prominently I might add. I'm sure there are more examples, 1Gen Imagineer Colin Campbell told me that he depicted himself on the original POTC poster. there is a bit of resemblance. Big Al in the CBJ is a spoof on Imagineer Al Bertino.