Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[misterID]

Yeah, when I read about the outsourcing the first thing I thought there was a good chance your name might be called up on a project. That's a win/win situation for you.

It could be a good way to get some of the other former Imagineers that left, or were let go back designing for the parks.

I think there will always be a WDI, but probably not in its current form, though.

 

[HMF]

(Post 6 by BlueSkyDriveBy is well written.)

Being someone potentially on the receiving end of any outsourcing strategy, I can't knock it. I welcome it. You should too. It only means there will be more places for you to have a shot at working for Disney.

The whole issue with WDI for years is that "not enough of the money gets on the screen" because of overhead. So in the best interests of still delivering the best show, why not hire the best wherever they may be? The thing is.. who at WDI is controlling it? The artists or the managers? If they can create the balance between what they send out and how it's creatively controlled, then it's ok. Indie filmmakers have been turning out great "studio" films using this business/org model for years. Our little Studio turns out arguably "Disney quality" projects and does it for less consisting of contract players. Why? Value, diversity, and quality. Because we "cast" the talent we hire like specialists, we have smaller teams with more direct expertise. My overhead is low so we can hire top talent and pass that on. We are all digital in that those we hire are wired back to the company so you can be anywhere there is a digital tablet and an internet connection. We tried to make the studio the shortest distance between the designer and the idea so the vision makes it into the field, and I think the contractor method gives us that flexibility and is best for the client. I don't think WDI is going away, it's evolving and catching up to the way the real world actually operates. There will be blood, but that happens.


BTW- What I hear about Shanghai is awesome and it's being developed creatively inside WDI.

but Eddie' I want to work in Show Writing (Eventually Production) not design (I cannot draw well) If there are fewer than 100 people working for WDI that' might possibly mean less likelihood for me to get in. They do not outsource Show Writing to my knowledge and if the number of positions is severely limited it might be harder for me to get in.(Not that it will be easy to begin with.) So yeah I am really concerned about how that will work out. I basicaly went into panic mode when I read LongIslandGuys post. I might have overreacted so to speak. On the plus side I will be starting College next month and will be taking Creative Writing courses.

 

[JerrodDRagon]

Its too bad when the better Imagineers leave Disney. Eddie really seems to know what both the fans want and also what needs to be done to the parks.

I'm glad you though the whole DCA expansion was almost perfect.

 

[jt04]

(Post 6 by BlueSkyDriveBy is well written.)

Being someone potentially on the receiving end of any outsourcing strategy, I can't knock it. I welcome it. You should too. It only means there will be more places for you to have a shot at working for Disney.

The whole issue with WDI for years is that "not enough of the money gets on the screen" because of overhead. So in the best interests of still delivering the best show, why not hire the best wherever they may be? The thing is.. who at WDI is controlling it? The artists or the managers? If they can create the balance between what they send out and how it's creatively controlled, then it's ok. Indie filmmakers have been turning out great "studio" films using this business/org model for years. Our little Studio turns out arguably "Disney quality" projects and does it for less consisting of contract players. Why? Value, diversity, and quality. Because we "cast" the talent we hire like specialists, we have smaller teams with more direct expertise. My overhead is low so we can hire top talent and pass that on. We are all digital in that those we hire are wired back to the company so you can be anywhere there is a digital tablet and an internet connection. We tried to make the studio the shortest distance between the designer and the idea so the vision makes it into the field, and I think the contractor method gives us that flexibility and is best for the client. I don't think WDI is going away, it's evolving and catching up to the way the real world actually operates. There will be blood, but that happens.


BTW- What I hear about Shanghai is awesome and it's being developed creatively inside WDI.

Well said. And there is nothing that says the art of "Imagineering" has to be confined to Disney for all the young hopefuls out there. There is a whole world of opportunity.

The only thing that I worry about is that the special brand of magic that the early Imagineers created for Walt seems to be the exception. There is just something missing nowadays that I can't define. So while the visual aesthetics may meet the standard, story or music or something else does not. These companies are getting closer but still lack something. You seem more of that old school standard in every way and I can't help but think you learned a lot from the original Imagineers. Why do you think it is so difficult to duplicate the standard they set? Was Walt or somebody that worked for him that much of a visionary? Or was it an assembly of talented people that Walt was fortunate enough to find in one place at one time?

Thanks.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

but Eddie' I want to work in Show Writing (Eventually Production) not design (I cannot draw well) If there are fewer than 100 people working for WDI that' might possibly mean less likelihood for me to get in. They do not outsource Show Writing to my knowledge and if the number of positions is severely limited it might be harder for me to get in.(Not that it will be easy to begin with.) So yeah I am really concerned about how that will work out. I basicaly went into panic mode when I read LongIslandGuys post. I might have overreacted so to speak. On the plus side I will be starting College next month and will be taking Creative Writing courses.

It's always been hard to get into WDI. It may not be easy. I was rejected twice! But I'd rather see it distilled, be competitive and survive than be bloated and get the ax altogether or not be able to deliver value. The basic idea is that you develop/control the intellectual property in house and to a greater or lesser degree outsource the design and execution.

If you want to hear great lessons of persistence and doing the impossible, listen to producer Jerry Weintraub's book "When I stop talking you'll know I'm dead.".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well said. And there is nothing that says the art of "Imagineering" has to be confined to Disney for all the young hopefuls out there. There is a whole world of opportunity.

The only thing that I worry about is that the special brand of magic that the early Imagineers created for Walt seems to be the exception. There is just something missing nowadays that I can't define. So while the visual aesthetics may meet the standard, story or music or something else does not. These companies are getting closer but still lack something. You seem more of that old school standard in every way and I can't help but think you learned a lot from the original Imagineers. Why do you think it is so difficult to duplicate the standard they set? Was Walt or somebody that worked for him that much of a visionary? Or was it an assembly of talented people that Walt was fortunate enough to find in one place at one time?

Thanks.

I like to think that DLP has that special brand of magic. And so do many other projects. What's missing? Hmm. There was an innocent simplicity in some of the early work that made it childlike and clear. The one thing a visionary like Walt (or Steve Jobs) brought to their work was an unfiltered "point of view" that was consistent and evident in the work. Steve is passionate about design at Apple and it shows in a fanatical way that the others cannot copy. Walt gave the 1st Gen designers freedom to make something their own a bit and that helped to give the jobs a stylistic edge. The company is bigger today with many layers and the amount of freedom you have in design is far less as you please many masters, one of them being the public and the law. When you end up trying to design to satisfy all needs, you can end up serving none.

Another thing that makes the early work great is the education the Art Directors had that designed the architecture. They were architects prior to working for the studios with deep classical experience and understood proportion and scale. They could draw by hand the various orders and details. (See my posts on pencil points magazine) This traditional education and emphasis on hand drawing fundamentals for the most part is lost today, even in production designers. I see it in interviewing talent. Forced perspective and other lost arts are not "beneath" the surface of their work. The company may spend money on the "gingerbread", but not always in the right scale and proportion so it feels off. It may not "tell a story" save for excess. I know because I've done it wrong too. On DLP we hired 2 80 year old set designers for Main Street so that depth would still be there, and so you learn from them. Computer aided design fights against those old lost arts and so you have to stay on top of it. I'm not saying all recent work is bad, there are good examples too, but generations can have a subtle effect on the work.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Its too bad when the better Imagineers leave Disney. Eddie really seems to know what both the fans want and also what needs to be done to the parks.

I'm glad you though the whole DCA expansion was almost perfect.

I like my current situation better than being "inside" as I'm not restless to work on other stuff. Do I miss the white Nametag? Sure, what fan wouldn't. But...I can work with WDI and still refresh my brain cells outside of the mouse doing all kinds of work that brings a fresh approach to what I would do for WDI. They can take advantage of 10 years of "real world" ideas and experience that keeps growing. I would have never gotten so much interactive and brand development, or series television experience (ABC, Vh1) inside Disney. My portfolio is much broader as you keep learning and evolving as the market evolves. It keeps you more relevant and companies care about that when it comes to creative talent. I'm more valuable to them now and so will other ex Imagineers as our skills have to meet the market versus being isolated inside doing rides. The "real world" and knowing how to navigate it is a good thing.

 

[jt04]

I like to think that DLP has that special brand of magic. And so do many other projects. What's missing? Hmm. There was an innocent simplicity in some of the early work that made it childlike and clear. The one thing a visionary like Walt (or Steve Jobs) brought to their work was an unfiltered "point of view" that was consistent and evident in the work. Steve is passionate about design at Apple and it shows in a fanatical way that the others cannot copy. Walt gave the 1st Gen designers freedom to make something their own a bit and that helped to give the jobs a stylistic edge. The company is bigger today with many layers and the amount of freedom you have in design is far less as you please many masters, one of them being the public and the law. When you end up trying to design to satisfy all needs, you can end up serving none.

Another thing that makes the early work great is the education the Art Directors had that designed the architecture. They were architects prior to working for the studios with deep classical experience and understood proportion and scale. They could draw by hand the various orders and details. (See my posts on pencil points magazine) This traditional education and emphasis on hand drawing fundamentals for the most part is lost today, even in production designers. I see it in interviewing talent. Forced perspective and other lost arts are not "beneath" the surface of their work. The company may spend money on the "gingerbread", but not always in the right scale and proportion so it feels off. It may not "tell a story" save for excess. I know because I've done it wrong too. On DLP we hired 2 80 year old set designers for Main Street so that depth would still be there, and so you learn from them. Computer aided design fights against those old lost arts and so you have to stay on top of it. I'm not saying all recent work is bad, there are good examples too, but generations can have a subtle effect on the work.

Wow great post. I will read it a few times.

I have not been to DLP unfortunately and I think you misunderstood me. I think WDI is still capable of the magic because the chain has not been broken. DCA proves that IMO. And I think people with your experience in WDI are becomming too rare. You can see it in the movie industry too.

There are probably many factors. Certainly losing the work ethic, drive and committment of the WWII generation is a large factor. But I think in this instance you nailed it. The loss of clasically educated architects and reliance on CAD makes sense. I had never thought about CAD but I had noticed it can and often does lack "soul".

I hope Disney is wise enough to realize it won't work without folks like you and other classically trained Imagineers. And that these disciplines should be passed on to new generations.

Oh, and I guess the only thing Paris lacks is the stuff Eisner made you cut would be the correct answer.

 

[lazyboy97o]

For decades, Disney has built up and exploited this romantic notion of a dedicated group of artists, be it for animation, film or the parks, who work day after day and year after year, following the path laid out by Walt Disney. While this has not really been the case (many of the Disney Legends came in and out for various projects, and even worked for others) there is something about the idea that has appeal. Disney was sort of that last hold out in corporate America, and even the world, where a career at Disney was measured in decades, not a few years.

 

[lazyboy97o]

This traditional education and emphasis on hand drawing fundamentals for the most part is lost today, even in production designers. I see it in interviewing talent.

Any ideas as to why this has been lost? I hear so many people lament the loss of this aspect of modern design education, but the trend continues. Even at my school, where three years ago computers were totally banned, except for a little on the final project, for the first two years; second year students are now expected to be composing most of their work in Photoshop by the second semester.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Any ideas as to why this has been lost? I hear so many people lament the loss of this aspect of modern design education, but the trend continues. Even at my school, where three years ago computers were totally banned, except for a little on the final project, for the first two years; second year students are now expected to be composing most of their work in Photoshop by the second semester.

Because you can get a job without it. Taco Bell and condos don't require that level of expertise. Design can be dragged and dropped into place. the thing that the traditional design teaches you is the why and the sense of proportion. Why learn math when you have a calculator? Here's a good book about the proper use of and design of decorative moldings. BTW- learning Photoshop, Sketchup and other art/design programs are a must in my book too!

http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Mouldings-Classical-America-Architecture/dp/0393732339

 

[HMF]

Awesome D23 chat with Tony Baxter.
http://d23.disney.go.com/articles/031810_NF_FEAT_TonyBaxterLiveChatTranscript.html

 

[JerrodDRagon]

I like my current situation better than being "inside" as I'm not restless to work on other stuff. Do I miss the white Nametag? Sure, what fan wouldn't. But...I can work with WDI and still refresh my brain cells outside of the mouse doing all kinds of work that brings a fresh approach to what I would do for WDI. They can take advantage of 10 years of "real world" ideas and experience that keeps growing. I would have never gotten so much interactive and brand development, or series television experience (ABC, Vh1) inside Disney. My portfolio is much broader as you keep learning and evolving as the market evolves. It keeps you more relevant and companies care about that when it comes to creative talent. I'm more valuable to them now and so will other ex Imagineers as our skills have to meet the market versus being isolated inside doing rides. The "real world" and knowing how to navigate it is a good thing.

And this is why I said it is a shame we lost you, I'm sure Disney undervalues many of there hardest and most talented people.

 

[HMF]

And this is why I said it is a shame we lost you, I'm sure Disney undervalues many of there hardest and most talented people.

He is doing a good job with his restaurant though.

 

[NoChesterHester]

Because you can get a job without it. Taco Bell and condos don't require that level of expertise. Design can be dragged and dropped into place. the thing that the traditional design teaches you is the why and the sense of proportion. Why learn math when you have a calculator? Here's a good book about the proper use of and design of decorative moldings. BTW- learning Photoshop, Sketchup and other art/design programs are a must in my book too!

http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Mouldings-Classical-America-Architecture/dp/0393732339

It isn't necessarily that design in the computer itself is soulless, and I don't think that is at all what you are saying.

A computer, whether it is Autocad or Excel, is merely a tool. Much like a pencil or a crayon. The application of that tool can be methodical, it can be calculated, or it can be artistic. Is there real thought and understanding behind the line, or behind the form? It is not just about creating, but rather about creating substance.

The classical training you long for doesn't necessarily have to come from a professor either. It is about the vigor and discipline to analyse and understand before acting. Historical precedent and understanding are paramount...

We can examine our culture for its shortcomings on these lines as well. We either act fast or find ourselves left behind. I'm sure Disney is no different than other high pressure corporations, paddle quickly, don't dawdle, or you are expendable. Tree gazers aren't necessarily appreciated, although they are needed.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

For decades, Disney has built up and exploited this romantic notion of a dedicated group of artists, be it for animation, film or the parks, who work day after day and year after year, following the path laid out by Walt Disney. While this has not really been the case (many of the Disney Legends came in and out for various projects, and even worked for others) there is something about the idea that has appeal. Disney was sort of that last hold out in corporate America, and even the world, where a career at Disney was measured in decades, not a few years.

Well said and so true. I think there is a bond between Imagineers that we share and know our time there was special. It was far more than a job and the real magic was the team itself. You knew you were surrounded by a diverse group of experts in all sorts of fields and that as a group you could bring anything to reality. Anything. That to me was the power of the myth, it was Imagination pushing the limits of engineering. I know that reads kinda sappy, but looking back on it, despite all the negatives I realize that you do feed off of the enthusiasm and talent of the team you're with. When properly motivated by management that loves the product as much as you do, there are not enough hours in the day to give to the project as you want to exceed both your guest and the boss. In my case, it was Tony for many years and he is not an easy mark, so it made me work harder in turn I learned many things. I think he did too! Then in the absence of that type of leadership you decide that you will set your own standards which are less satisfying in that you rarely reach them!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It isn't necessarily that design in the computer itself is soulless, and I don't think that is at all what you are saying.

A computer, whether it is Autocad or Excel, is merely a tool. Much like a pencil or a crayon. The application of that tool can be methodical, it can be calculated, or it can be artistic. Is there real thought and understanding behind the line, or behind the form? It is not just about creating, but rather about creating substance.

Well said. You have to know what you want the result to look like and slave the machine to give it to you. There are aspects and limitations to those programs. For example, templated curves are the substitute for graceful moldings. The lack of hand drawing tools begs you to be lazy and construct things from the shapes available.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

And this is why I said it is a shame we lost you, I'm sure Disney undervalues many of there hardest and most talented people.

It's hard for them to know the real value of the talent till they are not there. that's true of any company because they are too close to you. Once you start doing what you are truly capable of on the outside, then they may take notice.


Or not. LOL

 

[HMF]

Well said. You have to know what you want the result to look like and slave the machine to give it to you. There are aspects and limitations to those programs. For example, templated curves are the substitute for graceful moldings. The lack of hand drawing tools begs you to be lazy and construct things from the shapes available.

Interesting topic. Though I wish to be a writer when inspiration strikes me for a new idea I will hand-draw it. (Though I am a terrible artist.) I am actually considering getting photoshop for that reason.

 

[HMF]

It's hard for them to know the real value of the talent till they are not there. that's true of any company because they are too close to you. Once you start doing what you are truly capable of on the outside, then they may take notice.


Or not. LOL

Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone -Joni Mitchell

BTW' Eddie I know that there is no "Typical Day" at Imagineering (Tony Baxter and Kathy Mangum have said this ad nauseum.) but how exactly do you know what you will be doing that day. Is there a schedule or something?