Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

credit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23879054@N00/

Thanks for posting this picture. So you can see how the perspective illusion is created by making each hedge tinier and tinier as it climbs the roof. as I recall, painting all of the hedges in a green that it gets lighter as it gets further away was something of a science. I think the castle is not much more than 10 feet tall. Using greenery between the Haunted Mansion and It's a small world seemed to be the best way to bridge these two thematically opposite environments. In retrospect, doing this was quite a risk because if you executed the perspective wrong none of it would work.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Looking forward to the IAAPA write-up. Always wanted to go, though I do find it interesting that Disney held their own convention this week as well.

IAAPA stands for the international Association of amusement Parks and attractions. I've been going to this off and on for the last 30 years. It's a gigantic tradeshow first and foremost, but mostly an opportunity to network and catch up with the people you know on what is new in the industry. The one thing I have noticed over the years is that whatever WDI builds, a more simplistic version of it usually appears on the tradeshow floor a year or so later. This year was no exception in that I saw interactive ride systems similar to Toy Story mania. There were 4D theaters including one that had a demo of the movie "The Wizard of Oz" in 3-D! That was really cool. Some of the ride companies had interesting coasters, but nothing to write home about.

One ride company did their own version of the teacups, but did it in water.The turntable was a platform that would raise and lower out of the water so guests could load. Some people were impressed with this. Lots of companies were pushing all electronic reservation systems and wireless ticketing. Several design firms were there as well like BRC. What you see on the boards from these companies told me that there was a shift in the industry toward making museums more entertaining. It's interesting as when the theme park business slowed down several years ago, then those companies who design theme parks went after museum work. This in my opinion, caused museums to become more entertaining and the trend continues.

It seemed that North America was not expanding in the area of theme parks, but Asia and perhaps even the Middle East are still fertile markets. Some of the business I saw was more resort oriented where the hotel drives the project not the theme park.

Water parks are still ripe for an innovation and the water slides have become water rides, so that seems exciting to me.

For any of you that are aspiring designers, it might be well worth your while some day to come to this show and expose your work to some of these design firms. Most of the decision-makers are there at the show, and if nothing else you can get an idea of where things are headed and how you might fit in. There are also many companies that supplied the technology to attractions, from ride control systems and ride manufacturers, even the support networks to theme parks like ticket manufacturers and insurance companies. All of this is part of the world that a designer lives in and I enjoyed particularly speaking with some of the people in these booths to understand their business better. Many of the vendors there are somewhat esoteric like those who sell the carnival prizes, animated figures and props for haunted houses or make special scrub brushes to get gum off of the pavement. Believe it or not, I even ran into people that read this thread! But hey, they give out free ice cream and coke and you can ride on a lot of the stuff that's brought out there if you want or play laser tag. I'm not complaining. After hours there are usually industry parties that you can finagle the ticket for (or just purchase) and that's where you might meet someone and network yourself.

I particularly enjoyed a party thrown by the very talented Phil Hettema, a fantastic designer that is well known for his work at Universal. The party was at the Liberace Museum. That's right, Liberace.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, what is your opinion on Dinorama? Was it necesary? Is it garbage?

I'll start by saying I've never been there. Looking at images online and experiencing something are two entirely different things. What I see in images looks like a fun representation of a "Route 66" type roadside attraction created by well intentioned entrepreneurs. There is a funny nostalgia in the execution and the attention to detail, even if the intent is to be cheesy. But that's just what I'm getting from the photos. So those who "get it" will no doubt enjoy it.

The only thing I would say concerns me about projects like this is the use of real carnival pitch games which are by design created to cheat the guest and are not unique in any way. I was always told that Walt did not approve of treating the guest this way, so, for what it's worth, I'm not crazy about pitch games. It seems the ones they added in DCA are set up in such a way that everyone wins something and they are themed in a very unique way, so if they can figure that out, I am less concerned. All in, I like to reserve judgment for after I've actually been there and experienced it.

 

[Giraffe Lounge]

Iaapa

It was great meeting you there-- glad you got to see the water tea-cups!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It was great meeting you there-- glad you got to see the water tea-cups!

Likewise! Why don't you chime in and give us your IAAPA show impressions? It would be great to get another perspective.

 

[Giraffe Lounge]

Likewise! Why don't you chime in and give us your IAAPA show impressions? It would be great to get another perspective.

It was my first time at IAAPA-- so I'll frame my experiences with that lens a bit. The scope of it is pretty fascinating, everything from plush vendors to flat rides to high end design firms are all in the same place. There are products there for everything from a small regional attraction right up to the top level theme parks. So that was very cool.

Being newer to the industry it was great how approachable people are. It's great to be around so many others who have such a passion for something, especially because its something I'm also passionate about.

Even though it is first and foremost a tradeshow, there are some parts of it for the inner kid (or "foamer" as some might say) in all of us. I attended a panel given by several "Disney Legends" (TPI has a great recap) and I'll admit to getting a bit chocked up at the end hearing Richard Sherman sing his theme to Epcot's Imagination pavilion-- a ride I remember fondly from my childhood, and also moved by his recounting of performing "It's a Small World" shortly after 9/11. I wish I had found time for more of the seminars, but I look forward to attending more of them in the future.

I did get to visit the factory of Fisher Technical Services Inc (FTSI) whose work includes the automation and flying on Le Reve, Phantom of the Opera's chandelier, and many more. Their super precise engineering combined with an artistic sensibility is really amazing, and again, I found everyone their to be really proud and excited by their work.

Of course the exhibitors are there showing off their newest and greatest and I waited until the last day to chat with many of them. I know from LDI (which is the lighting industry's big conference) that the last day is a lot slower so its easier to informally chat with people for longer (since you're not taking their time away from potential clients). I had a great conversation, for example, with a coaster manufacturer about their restraints philosophy and how that impacts guests' experiences.

Overall I had a lot of fun, and I'd definitely echo you comment that people new in the industry try to go to one, and also possibly if you're in college and thinking of doing this for your life just to see all of what's out there.

 

[DisneyParksFan1]

I think that management believed at the time that even 80 million was too much to invest in a Winnie the Pooh or children's character concept. They felt that the Japanese audience would accept Winnie the Pooh at all ages and that American audiences perceived it as primarily a children's ride. So in a way, it's like "why spend all that money on Winnie the Pooh when most people only expect it to be at the level of a Fantasyland dark ride?".

Ahhh thank you. Was there ever any plans on bringing a trackless ride at all to WDW?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It was my first time at IAAPA-- so I'll frame my experiences with that lens a bit. The scope of it is pretty fascinating, everything from plush vendors to flat rides to high end design firms are all in the same place. There are products there for everything from a small regional attraction right up to the top level theme parks. So that was very cool.

Being newer to the industry it was great how approachable people are. It's great to be around so many others who have such a passion for something, especially because its something I'm also passionate about.

Even though it is first and foremost a tradeshow, there are some parts of it for the inner kid (or "foamer" as some might say) in all of us. I attended a panel given by several "Disney Legends" (TPI has a great recap) and I'll admit to getting a bit chocked up at the end hearing Richard Sherman sing his theme to Epcot's Imagination pavilion-- a ride I remember fondly from my childhood, and also moved by his recounting of performing "It's a Small World" shortly after 9/11. I wish I had found time for more of the seminars, but I look forward to attending more of them in the future.

I did get to visit the factory of Fisher Technical Services Inc (FTSI) whose work includes the automation and flying on Le Reve, Phantom of the Opera's chandelier, and many more. Their super precise engineering combined with an artistic sensibility is really amazing, and again, I found everyone their to be really proud and excited by their work.

Of course the exhibitors are there showing off their newest and greatest and I waited until the last day to chat with many of them. I know from LDI (which is the lighting industry's big conference) that the last day is a lot slower so its easier to informally chat with people for longer (since you're not taking their time away from potential clients). I had a great conversation, for example, with a coaster manufacturer about their restraints philosophy and how that impacts guests' experiences.

Overall I had a lot of fun, and I'd definitely echo you comment that people new in the industry try to go to one, and also possibly if you're in college and thinking of doing this for your life just to see all of what's out there.

Ditto. Thanks for your great insights. I've never been to LDI but would like to attend sometime.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

IAAPA "Walking with Walt" interview.

Just to make sure this gets seen, here's the link to the article GL found online.

It recaps the interviews last week with Marty Sklar, Bob Gurr, Blaine Gibson and Buzz Price. Their theme is something we have held pretty fast to in this thread, positive and constructive critique. Thanks again GL.

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/200911/1551/

 

[Giraffe Lounge]

Ditto. Thanks for your great insights. I've never been to LDI but would like to attend sometime.

LDI is a hoot. Its unique-- even among lighting trade shows-- in that they turn OFF the lighting in the convention hall and every booth is lit by the products being sold.

Definitely worth checking out-- once in a great while they're in town the same week as IAAPA (this year they were at the same time, but LDI was in Orlando).

 

[Eddie Sotto]

IAAPA Video on Youtube.

Now you can all go to IAAPA. Great interviews..4 parts..it's well worth the watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0M6z8pSjGQ&feature=related


Next let's discuss what you liked. Lot's to see!

 

[Figment632]

Hey Eddie I was wondering what your thoughts are on the current state of The Wonders of Life Pavilion? IMO it is a sin to have that space just sitting there.

I would like to see it turned into a weather based pavilion and maybe bring Storm Rider over from Disney Sea's?

What do you think about WOL and what would you do with it if Disney came to you and said do what ever you want?

 

[DisneyParksFan1]

Mr. Sotto, I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the Fantasyland Expansion and what you would do if you were in charge of that particular expansion.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Mr. Sotto, I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the Fantasyland Expansion and what you would do if you were in charge of that particular expansion.

You may want to scroll/search through the thread as most of these answers are all there. BTW- I have not worked for WDI in 10 years. there is some background on me at
www.themedattraction.com

Welcome to the thread and I hope you give us some of your insights too.

 

[kcnole]

Just curious Mr. Soto,

Has there been any specific portion of this thread that has been enlightening to you in any way and made you go, "hmmmm.... I haven't thought of that before." Or has everything that we've mentioned been something that's already run through your head a million times.

I guess I'm just curious how close our thoughts are at times to those who work in the industry. We often complain about the lack of originality out of WDI lately but I believe its not the lack of originality so much as the lack of financial backing to allow for true creativity and awe inspiring creations. So I'm wondering, are these the kinds of conversations that you creative types sit around and have, or is our outlook as a fan far different than your own?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Just curious Mr. Soto,

Has there been any specific portion of this thread that has been enlightening to you in any way and made you go, "hmmmm.... I haven't thought of that before." Or has everything that we've mentioned been something that's already run through your head a million times.

I guess I'm just curious how close our thoughts are at times to those who work in the industry. We often complain about the lack of originality out of WDI lately but I believe its not the lack of originality so much as the lack of financial backing to allow for true creativity and awe inspiring creations. So I'm wondering, are these the kinds of conversations that you creative types sit around and have, or is our outlook as a fan far different than your own?

What a great question!

I'd certainly say that concerns about quality or what story elements are appropriate to the theme are exactly the kinds of things Imagineers passionately discuss. Don't forget, before I was an Imagineer, I was a fan and still am. Sometimes I am surprised how attraction is perceived, as what was intended did not come across the way it should have. But as an Imagineer, you have to be sensitive to how the story "reads" to the audience.

So in answer to your question, I think your thoughts are close to those who work in the industry with the exception of experience. Fans sometimes error on the side of tradition, which is to be expected. Designers have to try to respect the tradition but evolve the product to be relevant to the guest. This area is probably the most controversial aspect of the design.

Imagineers have to please many masters, and perhaps there are even more masters than there were in my day. So in a way, it's kind of like getting a bill through Congress, you have to make some compromises along the way in order to get the bill through. The art of this of course, is having the final product still be the thrilling idea that made everyone excited in the first place. This is not to say that ideas should not be reviewed and a good suggestions should not be listened to. Or to say that those critiquing or adding those layers cannot have a say. Sometimes the process takes the texture and the edges off of something very fresh. (I used to call it putting it in the "blander"). The key is to romance those reviewing the concept into becoming passionate themselves about those very textures and realize that without them the entire enterprise could fail. What you've touched on in a way is the very reason I got involved in this thread, because I really wanted fans to understand in a truthful way what it is like to try to give birth to an idea. Coming up with it only takes a moment, executing it usually takes years. It's those years of translation that will determine its ultimate success or failure.

I hope this answers your question as it was an excellent one!

 

[kcnole]

What you've touched on in a way is the very reason I got involved in this thread, because I really wanted fans to understand in a truthful way what it is like to try to give birth to an idea. Coming up with it only takes a moment, executing it usually takes years. It's those years of translation that will determine its ultimate success or failure.

I hope this answers your question as it was an excellent one!

Thanks. What you stated there very much reminds me of Marc Davis and his desire to have Western River Expedition built. It was his life work and unfortunately he never got to see it happen but instead saw a young imagineer, Tony Baxter, inadvertently steal his thunder by getting Big Thunder Mountain built instead.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks. What you stated there very much reminds me of Marc Davis and his desire to have Western River Expedition built. It was his life work and unfortunately he never got to see it happen but instead saw a young imagineer, Tony Baxter, inadvertently steal his thunder by getting Big Thunder Mountain built instead.

We all have things like that happen, not very fun, but it comes with the job. Disney Quest killed my pet project but sometimes it's for the better.

Digression alert. Now this is just my opinion, but to me "Western River Expedition", with it's flat abstract sets supporting realistic figures never had that "wow" of Pirates. Marc had to put his figures into Claude Coats realistic backgrounds and I think the combination of realism and fun situations made POTC great. You were really teleported somewhere. WRE reminds me of "America Sings", where the settings were purely theatrical with figures set against them. You were always conscious that they were in a set. Oh well. We'll never know, but I don't think getting BTM was a bad thing either. I do get your point.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hey Eddie I was wondering what your thoughts are on the current state of The Wonders of Life Pavilion? IMO it is a sin to have that space just sitting there.

I would like to see it turned into a weather based pavilion and maybe bring Storm Rider over from Disney Sea's?

What do you think about WOL and what would you do with it if Disney came to you and said do what ever you want?

Here's my answer. EPCOT's bigger picture. (I'd probably lose WOL)
http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/2009/05/wwed-armchair-imagineering-with-eddie.html

 

[TP2000]

Digression alert. Now this is just my opinion, but to me "Western River Expedition", with it's flat abstract sets supporting realistic figures never had that "wow" of Pirates. Marc had to put his figures into Claude Coats realistic backgrounds and I think the combination of realism and fun situations made POTC great. You were really teleported somewhere. WRE reminds me of "America Sings", where the settings were purely theatrical with figures set against them. You were always conscious that they were in a set. Oh well. We'll never know, but I don't think getting BTM was a bad thing either. I do get your point.

I've been scanning this thread for weeks, but this item popped out bold.

As someone who has been reading Disney theme park Internet chatter for about 13 years now, I can't thank you enough for giving your fresh thoughts on Western River Expedition. WRE seems to be the continual "holy grail" for Disney Geeks, from the old alt.disney.parks discussion boards of 1996 to the mega-site discussion boards of 2009. And all this time, I don't think anyone has ever dared suggest that it might be for the best that WRE never got built.

But not only did you suggest it, you backed it up with a design aspect of it that I had never heard mentioned before. I have very fond memories of America Sings, but it was a hokey show very of it's time, and it didn't need to survive past the mid 1980's. To think that WRE would have had similar design sensibilities makes me realize that it's a darn good thing WRE never materialized in its proposed Marc Davis format. (The 1970's WRE artwork on display in the Disneyland Hotel now seems even cheesier with this reference point!).

Thanks for shedding some light on the WRE myth that it could have been the greatest thing Imagineering ever did. Interestingly, after seeing the Radiator Springs Racers models and info at D23 Expo, I get the sense that attraction will be on the scale and scope of WRE but with a better chance of resonating with the audience from Day One through the next several decades at least. The massive rockwork facade alone has strong hints of the WRE show building.

Thanks again for convincing me WRE wasn't all it was cracked up to be. :wave: