Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Ralphlaw]

Thank you, Mr. Sotto, for your excellent responses. Indeed, why aren't robot competitions and other techie gatherings at Epcot? Why aren't brave innovations being premiered at Epcot? Why is the best new visual effect in all of Disney, "The Magic, the Memories, and You", being shown on a fiberglass version of a 19th century castle?

The 60's, when Walt was excited about Epcot, was a time when urban renewal was hot and anti-traffic had just started. Traffic jams were just starting, pollution was a major problem, the EPA wasn't born yet, and good people had been fleeing for the suburbs as congestion, inner city decay, and crime skyrocketed. Indeed, it seems Epcot was anti-LA as much as anything. Walt's ideas of a smartly run city resonated back then. Today, not so much.

But sci fi gatherings, product premiers, and true leaps forward are sadly lacking at Epcot. The park, of course, runs pretty full without them, and do they really have to go begging for a geek conference? Perhaps Vegas can do it all cheaper (and they can with gambling down the hall subsidizing everything else), and silicon valley and the northwest in general led the computer revolution instead of Florida.

Oh well, great thoughts. Indeed, I would love to spend one day a year at a Star Wars transformed Epcot, but then bring back my SE, Soarin, MS, and WS, (to end with a string of unexplained acronyms). It's time to go home, and lets hope one day our HeroWorld comes to fruition.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

It's hard to know that answer, but Avatar is out there and you can critique it. So I really think what you are asking is weather it is Cameron as a creative force or the property of Avatar that is objectionable. I'd say Cameron is less an issue as in the case of assisting WDI would be informed by the limitations of execution in a theme park. I'm not sure he brings much to the party that could not be hatched internally. I'd rather know John Lassiter was involved or maybe George Lucas. Frankly, its beyond me that a Star Wars themed expansion is not happening. It's already bigger than anything Avatar will ever do. Why can't I go to Mos Eisley right now? I don't wanna hear that it is about money, as they pay 200m plus to do Carsland. Star Wars beats them all cross generationally. It could be its own Resort. No brainer. If the company announced a new Star Wars Resort and attraction connected to DHS with bubble city water slides and stuff, do you not think that the fans would go nuts?

A big IF..lf they never get serious about making EPCOT into what it needs to be and it declines another ten years and just becomes a joke, I would pitch remaking EPCOT into the new Star Wars hotel and ride park and remaking the ball into the Death Star impregnated with LED so every night the rebels blow it up. XWing ride inside, All new theming. Move Star Tours into Body Wars building and retheme, Communicore would be redone as Mos Eisley with the Cantina, and be the gateway for a bunch of new and exciting shows. Treetop hotels with the Ewoks, etc. Ice planet hotel. Etc. World Showcase would be rethemed into a series of SW off world resort villages with different facades, alien stage shows, Jabbas beasts and stuff. You'd visit all the planets and colonies. Sign me up right now!

All of this got me thinking. Maybe EPCOT needs to begin anew as the Community of Tomorrow that Walt wanted. We have settled for the Experimental Prototype Carnival of Tomorrow and parts of it became beloved, but what of Walt's real dream of a Future City? Could you ever get there with band aids and remodels? No. Not that what we have was not done well and a noble effort, it was. I like EPCOT, but wonder if you can ever get "there" from "here"?

If they remade the old park into SW and then designed a 21st Century "Progress City" take on his dream in Lake Buena Vista or elsewhere, that would finally do the concept justice. Not a theme park, but a timeshare, resort hybrid or some other mixed use business model that supports the kind of model city type arrangement. Up until now, we have a theme park that does not live up to it's financial expectations because it was born, not to innovate the future as a model, but to exploit it and hopefully sell edutainment as a fair. Every time they try and pull in attendance by adding a populist event, it betrays the purity of the mission. To be honest, because of it's business plan, it was prevented from being great at either. Attractions that captured it's essence like Horizons are gone, not because they had the wrong message, but because they did not draw enough crowds or lost their sponsor. EPCOT as an idea is trapped in the wrong body. I think the idea needs to be reborn in a new one that has a business model that allows it to be a laboratory of innovation and growth. That place we were all promised where you can stay and experience what's next.

Now if I were the CEO of Apple I'd give you a blank check to build all of the above and to build it right, and I wouldn't care what anybody would think or what it would cost.

 

[IlikeDW]

Ran across this concept.
http://www.designbuzz.com/skyscraper-mumbai-floating-pool-balconies.html
http://www.designbuzz.com/aquaria-grande-tower.html

If they were to do this type of thing in a DVC I might actually buy(of course maintenance costs would by sky high)


Mr. Sotto,
When you design do you start out with a no holds barred approach or do you censor yourself in the sense that you assume it will be too expensive to get approved or too difficult to engineer?

 

[yeti]

I've heard $350m for RSR alone. (Budgets are no obstacle for Skipper John's pet projects.:lol

Does that include the mountain range itself? That would make it a little less surprising, in that they constitute to form the background portrait of the entire land at large.

 

[Ralphlaw]

$350 million buys you about half of a cruise ship, if you want to compare it.

That's one heck of an investment, so it better be one heck of a ride. California Adnventure needs it though. That chunk of the park is pretty sparse right now. I always wonder about the analysis: How many more guests, and/or how much more in ticket prices, are needed to justify a few hundred million dollars in investment. if it attracts an additional 2,000 people a day, at an average of $30 per admission, that's $60,000 per day, or $21,900,000 per year. That's less than 7% of the rumored cost of building it, and does not account for the crew that runs and maintains it. Of course, that also doesn't include extra concessions, souvenirs, hotel income, etc . . . It's amazing how much money is risked on these things, and what if it's a total failure?

By comparison, a $350 million casino in Vegas is completely paid for in 3 years. Sad statement about our culture, if you think about it. When people start complaining about Disney not investing in the parks, think about these numbers. And also think about how pure financial decisions would lead inexorably to the decision to invest in vices like gambling. Disney's heart and money, from my viewpoint, are in the right place. Crunching numbers would seem to bear this out.

 

[RSoxNo1]

$350 million buys you about half of a cruise ship, if you want to compare it.

That's one heck of an investment, so it better be one heck of a ride. California Adnventure needs it though. That chunk of the park is pretty sparse right now. I always wonder about the analysis: How many more guests, and/or how much more in ticket prices, are needed to justify a few hundred million dollars in investment. if it attracts an additional 2,000 people a day, at an average of $30 per admission, that's $60,000 per day, or $21,900,000 per year. That's less than 7% of the rumored cost of building it, and does not account for the crew that runs and maintains it. Of course, that also doesn't include extra concessions, souvenirs, hotel income, etc . . . It's amazing how much money is risked on these things, and what if it's a total failure?

By comparison, a $350 million casino in Vegas is completely paid for in 3 years. Sad statement about our culture, if you think about it. When people start complaining about Disney not investing in the parks, think about these numbers. And also think about how pure financial decisions would lead inexorably to the decision to invest in vices like gambling. Disney's heart and money, from my viewpoint, are in the right place. Crunching numbers would seem to bear this out.

The thing is, the attraction lineup at DCA is probably stronger than any park in Florida other than Magic Kingdom.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Now if I were the CEO of Apple I'd give you a blank check to build all of the above and to build it right, and I wouldn't care what anybody would think or what it would cost.

Thanks. Keep the change! I'd give Jonny Ive and the staff of Apple first crack at brainstorming the City of Tomorrow too.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Ran across this concept.
http://www.designbuzz.com/skyscraper-mumbai-floating-pool-balconies.html
http://www.designbuzz.com/aquaria-grande-tower.html

If they were to do this type of thing in a DVC I might actually buy(of course maintenance costs would by sky high)


Mr. Sotto,
When you design do you start out with a no holds barred approach or do you censor yourself in the sense that you assume it will be too expensive to get approved or too difficult to engineer?

Walt never let his designers talk to the accountants.m He wanted their best unfiltered ideas. He'd decide if they were worth bugging his brother for the money. Marc Davis drew Pirate Cartoons that he thought would be funny and Walt took them to another level with animation and a massive attraction, one executed in a scope no one had ever seen before. Likely it was beyond what they thought they could spend. Would that have happened if Marc was trying to design to a number? I try and go with my gut first and get excited about something I'd beg to see and then worry about if they can afford it later. "What if" is a great starting point.

 

[invader]

$350 million buys you about half of a cruise ship, if you want to compare it.

Depending on who is fronting the cost for the cruise ship. Yes, a RC ship would be about $700 million, but of course, for Disney $350 million would be about a fourth.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

My point is that staying ahead in Future World is nearly impossible. When Epcot was blueprinted in the 70s and built in the early 80s, keeping up with whiz bang visual stuff of the future was very exciting and doable only in high budget special places like Epcot. New energy was huge, along with space, robots, human body science, etc . . . Now, the changes are tiny and expected. New computers and gadgets are very cool, but how do you make them so exciting that you'll travel halfway across the country to see them? Looking at circuitry through a microscope isn't very fun, and you could conjure up similar images on your smartphone in less than a minute from some website. And new amazing apps are literally minutes away. Computer Graphics are viewable in dozens of movies on your TV everyday that feature every visible wonder imaginable. Just last night, we had 2 Pirates of the Carribean movies, X-men, Star Wars, Night at the Museum, and Star Trek.

The problem, how do you illustrate the future in Future World in a unique and "I gotta see it" way? I don't know. I like brainstorming and throwing around ideas, but when one part of the idea is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous, the good part of the idea gets lost for many people. Redoing Epcot to be a Star Wars park came off that way to me. Unrealistic, and absolutely blind to the economic realities. In my opinion, thinking about a Hero World, especially now that Disney got the rights to so many Marvel Characters, seems to be a more realistic exercise in brainstorming. Gutting Epcot is not, in my opinion, a very worthwhile conversation.

You might enjoy reading the article that hatched this thread! It deals with more realities of EPCOT.

http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/

 

[wdwmagic]

A bit off topic, but an interesting article on design in general with Sir Jonathan Ive.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/sir-jonathan-ive-the-iman-cometh-7562170.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Incredible TV Commercial

I'd love to see Disney do something visionary like this 2 minute TV Ad from French jeweler, Cartier. It took two years to make. Their mascot or logo has been a Panther, and this one takes us to amazing places and shows off insane jewelry. I was blown away when I saw it running between other banal ads. It will never make it's money back, but wows us and tells us who they are and who they want to be. Worth the watch for sure.

http://www.fastcocreate.com/1680037/watch-cartiers-two-years-in-the-making-odyssey-film

 

[Eddie Sotto]

A bit off topic, but an interesting article on design in general with Sir Jonathan Ive.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/sir-jonathan-ive-the-iman-cometh-7562170.html

Good post, here's a preview.

Q: What makes a great designer?

A: It is so important to be light on your feet, inquisitive and interested in being wrong. You have that wonderful fascination with the what if questions, but you also need absolute focus and a keen insight into the context and what is important - that is really terribly important. Its about contradictions you have to navigate.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Depending on who is fronting the cost for the cruise ship. Yes, a RC ship would be about $700 million, but of course, for Disney $350 million would be about a fourth.

Wow! Makes me appreciate my recent DCL trips a bit more. $1.4 billion, with "b"!

Again, if Disney cared about nothing but the bottom line, they'd slap casinos all over the place, in the boats, the resorts, the hotels, on a corner of the property. The fact that they don't tells me that values beyond the dollars and cents are at work.

By the way, I love how Walt never let the imagineers talk to the accountants. I never heard that before. Of course, it took the legendary founder of the company, and the brother of the numbers guy, to make that system work. Walt mortgaged everything, even his personal assets, to build Disneyland. You just don't see that kind of commitment anymore, at least I haven't seen it. No 21st century Board of Directors would stand for it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Good post, here's a preview.

Q: What makes a great designer?

A: It is so important to be light on your feet, inquisitive and interested in being wrong. You have that wonderful fascination with the what if questions, but you also need absolute focus and a keen insight into the context and what is important - that is really terribly important. Its about contradictions you have to navigate.

The boldest part is probably one of the most important lessons in design I think there is to learn. In some ways I think our greater societal interest in "self esteem" (I would say the wider notion of self esteem has been greatly distorted) has hurt the potential in many people because somehow stating that an idea is bad has become associated with a personal dislike. Every summer when the message boards are flooded with younger kids there are many aspiring designers who post "Armchair Imagineering" ideas and I see too many who get discouraged and hurt because they are given constructive criticism and end up equating that a put down and a personal dislike.

 

[Florida_is_hot]

I am not sure where this thread is going seems to have many branches.

The Parks, I feel Disney lost its vision.

Magic Kingdom, fantasy and place for kids of all ages
EPCOT, to explore the future and place to showcase the latest inventions
Hollywood Studios, everything related to film and TV production
Animal Kingdom, the name says it all

What happened yes I remember in the early year of EPCOT, adults loved the place but I also remember seeing cranky spoiled 5 year olds. Disney caved into these families and ignored the adults. They added the fantasy element to even though there is a place for fantasy the Magic Kingdom.

A while ago there was an idea "rumor" of an evening only theme park only for adults got killed.... Pleasure Island the same thing.

Why have four theme parks all catering to exactly the same market the family ?

Put Star War in Epcot .... Please this is film franchise there is Hollywood Studios.

Marvel Characters never mind the fact Universal Studios has Marvel(I careless who owns Marvel) Universal Studios has the rights to have these characters in their park but if you were to put Marvel Characters anywhere the logic place is maybe Hollywood Studios.

EPCOT is mess because Disney lost it's vision.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The boldest part is probably one of the most important lessons in design I think there is to learn. In some ways I think our greater societal interest in "self esteem" (I would say the wider notion of self esteem has been greatly distorted) has hurt the potential in many people because somehow stating that an idea is bad has become associated with a personal dislike. Every summer when the message boards are flooded with younger kids there are many aspiring designers who post "Armchair Imagineering" ideas and I see too many who get discouraged and hurt because they are given constructive criticism and end up equating that a put down and a personal dislike.

I called WED when I was probably 12 and told them I had an idea for a ride, they said "anything you can think of, we've already thought of, so we don't need to hear it". That only made me want to get in more. Today, due to legal issues they can't and even I can't hear "idea pitches", but back then it was not so well defined.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I am not sure where this thread is going seems to have many branches.

The Parks, I feel Disney lost its vision.

Magic Kingdom, fantasy and place for kids of all ages
EPCOT, to explore the future and place to showcase the latest inventions
Hollywood Studios, everything related to film and TV production
Animal Kingdom, the name says it all

What happened yes I remember in the early year of EPCOT, adults loved the place but I also remember seeing cranky spoiled 5 year olds. Disney caved into these families and ignored the adults. They added the fantasy element to even though there is a place for fantasy the Magic Kingdom.

A while ago there was an idea "rumor" of an evening only theme park only for adults got killed.... Pleasure Island the same thing.

Why have four theme parks all catering to exactly the same market the family ?

Put Star War in Epcot .... Please this is film franchise there is Hollywood Studios.

Marvel Characters never mind the fact Universal Studios has Marvel(I careless who owns Marvel) Universal Studios has the rights to have these characters in their park but if you were to put Marvel Characters anywhere the logic place is maybe Hollywood Studios.

EPCOT is mess because Disney lost it's vision.

We got frayed! The root of all of this was the notion that as long as EPCOT stays a theme park, you'll never get the real vision of a future community that Walt wanted. So I proposed closing one EPCOT and opening another that was the real vision. You'd have to buy into the idea that his vision is worth doing, that's all. Of course, that idea in 21st Century terms is ten times different and hopefully better than what was proposed. (I think the Star Wars solution sidetracked everyone as it was a controversial shocker.)

 

[Ralphlaw]

Easy discouragement is a sure sign that the American empire is falling. When kids don't learn that constructive criticism often comes in the form of something other than a friendly pat on the back, and two compliments surrounding an almost apologetic bit of "Gee, try to do better next time", we have lost something. Coaches, drill sergeants, tough teachers, and real parents should not be muted because someone's ego might get damaged. Speak plainly; not cruelly, but plainly. Correct the poor results, and bad behavior for that matter, and we will grow as a culture. Pussyfoot around with hints, or nothing, instead of plain criticism, and most people will be left in a fog not knowing what's good, bad, or even junk.

Yet over the internet, we type plainly, often with no diplomacy. Conjuring up ideas with brainstorming sessions is fun, but sometimes discouraging because you always have to return to reality. A corporation survives on compromise, and even Walt had to endure much of that, especially once the union moved into the studio in the 40's.

Yet it is the great spirits who achieve greatness, often at a terrible personal cost. Would the parks be better if the uninhibited team of Walt & Roy ran Disney for the last 40 years? Probably. But they died, requiring ideas to get compromised by shareholders, boards, committees, and the numbers guys. Oh well, America needs visionaries who don't get discouraged with each critique, who can cut through the bureaucracy, and who can inspire great achievments. Such people seem to be lacking at all levels of leadership in our country, from the White House to the shop floor. And apparently at the level of some true decision-maker who could run the parks. Maybe Lasseter will bring it back.

And that's my last diatribe for the day.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I have been out of town for the last few weeks, and have finally caught up.

So my .02 cents on the Star Wars idea. I absolutely love the idea of doing a complete Star Wars land with themed hotels and all, but do not agree with doing it in or changing EPCOT to do it. If you look at a satellite image of Hollywood Studios, there is plenty of room to add an entire land with multiple hotels between World Drive, Osceola Pkwy, and Victory Way. It is easily an area larger than the current HS footprint (minus the parking lot, but you wouldn't need that for just a new land with some attached hotels). Also, the current Star Tours ride is actually on this side of the park, near the open area. Just expand it to a complete land with resorts, and away we go!

My feeling is that you could see attendance soar if this were done right. I agree with Eddie on some of the rides and you would have to make it completely immersive. Wookies in the lobby! What a great concept!

Ok, so to EPCOT. Why can't we have our cake and eat it too? Disney could easily build another new EPCOT themed as Eddie has suggested (they should have plenty of money, since the 2 new Disney ships (total cost of 1.8 billion over the last few years) and Cars Land (300-400m) are pretty much finished. So over 2 billion in just the last few years. A new EPCOT could easily be done for half that, and, as Eddie suggested, make part of it a timeshare that can bring in money to cover the cost of building part of it. We are already DVC members, and would be happy to add on as part of an EPCOT rebirth.

What to do with the current EPCOT? Hmmm, name change that might more accurately reflect what it has become. Better minds than mine would be able to come up with something for that.

What would you call it, Eddie?