Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
I think he's referring to this one... I believe you mentioned it was Ryman's in one of the Disney&More articles on the 1920s MainSt... I can see why HMF thought it was one of yours as many of your color sketches look like it.
images
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
I think he's referring to this one... I believe you mentioned it was Ryman's in one of the Disney&More articles on the 1920s MainSt... I can see why HMF thought it was one of yours as many of your color sketches look like it.
images

That's the one. If it is Herbie I stand corrected but it looks like Eddie's style to me.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
That's the one. If it is Herbie I stand corrected but it looks like Eddie's style to me.

Alas, it's a rough Ryman.:eek: I watched him do it. It does look like my work, the rougher it is, the more it looks like mine! I always tried to imitate Herb and Sam McKim. (One way is to use a calligraphy felt tip pen and alternate using thick and thin edges. Finish up with markers that are almost dried out and squeak for that gradient sky look.)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Alas, it's a rough Ryman.:eek: I watched him do it. It does look like my work, the rougher it is, the more it looks like mine! I always tried to imitate Herb and Sam McKim. (One way is to use a calligraphy felt tip pen and alternate using thick and thin edges. Finish up with markers that are almost dried out and squeak for that gradient sky look.)

Eddie.. with sketches like those... how much 'input' information does the artist have? Are they only told a lose oral narrative.. are they given some architectural guidance.. or what?

Trying to figure out which comes first here.. the chicken or the egg :)
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie.. with sketches like those... how much 'input' information does the artist have? Are they only told a lose oral narrative.. are they given some architectural guidance.. or what?

Trying to figure out which comes first here.. the chicken or the egg :)

That drawing in particular was a test to see if the famous street level Diner depicted in the famous "Nighthawks" painting by Edward Hopper could be "adapted" to the SW Corner of an existing Facade from WDW we were being asked to keep. We changed the windows and added brick as the siding was not very urban. The awning and car was in reference to a nightclub "Speakeasy" (Live show and dining) we wanted to add.

We took liberties of course and explored the idea with this quick sketch. So I described this idea to Herb with the needed reference and he played with it. I attached images so you can compare how it evolved. As you can see we did not do the 1920's version and stuck with the original facade.
 

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Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
The Origins of Futurism

We discuss EPCOT, Tomorrowland, Progress City and what it means to build or even predict "the future". It's either too expensive to maintain, or something we feel we must lead the world with. But what is this future we are debating? This article in the Smithsonian has a lot to say about what "futurism" really is, and if we are really predicting anything at all. The future may just be now. A good read.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/The-Origins-of-Futurism.html#
 

KevinYee

Well-Known Member
I want to know more about friction. A while back you welcomed a challenge, saying that this thread can become homogenous. I can certainly see the danger of staleness and groupthink in creative suites - is the cure to have blue sky meetings that are intentionally fractious at times?

Assuming yes, I'm curious how you ride herd on that (so it doesn't go TOO far). How do you stop feelings from getting hurt? It's probably easier once you set a precedent and get the culture going, but how do you start such a culture at a workplace? Do such meetings have a leader - what's his/her "job" supposed to be?
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
Off topic, Eddie. Pirates of the Caribbean is 45 years old today- at least the Disneyland original. Many people consider this their favorite attraction, and I hope there are lots of articles today celebrating it. (I know I am on my blog.)

Here's my question: in your opinion, what impact did Pirates have on your personally as a human and then an Imagineer? How did it impact development of other parks and attractions? Thanks for answering!
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I want to know more about friction. A while back you welcomed a challenge, saying that this thread can become homogenous. I can certainly see the danger of staleness and groupthink in creative suites - is the cure to have blue sky meetings that are intentionally fractious at times?

Assuming yes, I'm curious how you ride herd on that (so it doesn't go TOO far). How do you stop feelings from getting hurt? It's probably easier once you set a precedent and get the culture going, but how do you start such a culture at a workplace? Do such meetings have a leader - what's his/her "job" supposed to be?

On this subject.. check out this from the New Yorker... a view on brainstorming.. which in effect is the same thing as Blue Sky planning.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/01/30/120130fa_fact_lehrer?currentPage=all

It gives some interesting contrasting views on the subject

In other realms.. like Agile.. you do have a leader in the meetings.. but their job is to facilitate and keep things on track... not to decide what is good/bad. The key to conflict resolution is respect and open minds. Heirarchy is a killer almost always. Smaller, more agile orgs almost always avoid heirarchy because it just slows things down and arbitrarily gives weight to things regardless of their importance.

Voices can have power without job titles or seniority. In an open forum, respect and openness to explore someone else's idea will resolve most conflicts. Often there is a deadlock where neither side is clearly better than the other.. so often a choice may be made by the collective. Or you can simply try both and reevaluate again at a later point. It's hard to say universally, it often depends on the subject.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I want to know more about friction. A while back you welcomed a challenge, saying that this thread can become homogenous. I can certainly see the danger of staleness and groupthink in creative suites - is the cure to have blue sky meetings that are intentionally fractious at times?

Assuming yes, I'm curious how you ride herd on that (so it doesn't go TOO far). How do you stop feelings from getting hurt? It's probably easier once you set a precedent and get the culture going, but how do you start such a culture at a workplace? Do such meetings have a leader - what's his/her "job" supposed to be?

The standard MO is that there is a brief or mission of the creative assignment (i.e 5th Gate WDW) that is understood by all. In the first rounds there are "no bad ideas" and anyone can suggest anything, then usually the group breaks up and works on developing some of the thoughts and looks for common threads in all the ideas that tell you something is brewing. Those threads are distilled and built upon. Some meetings require further explanation off these sound byte ideas and you can tend to get passionate and even territorial about your own suggestion. I tend to get that way if the idea in my mind is being discounted on the surface, because it is not properly visualized or compared to lesser efforts. This is common. The less possessive and more "group think" you are, the less feelings get hurt as everyone has their brainchild beat up. You reconvene and eventually the weak ideas are less focused on and the strong threads are developed. Eventually you present the consensus of several groups to upper management. As moderator, you try and record everything, yet constantly distill and keep the group on topic or mission.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
On this subject.. check out this from the New Yorker... a view on brainstorming.. which in effect is the same thing as Blue Sky planning.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/01/30/120130fa_fact_lehrer?currentPage=all

It gives some interesting contrasting views on the subject

In other realms.. like Agile.. you do have a leader in the meetings.. but their job is to facilitate and keep things on track... not to decide what is good/bad. The key to conflict resolution is respect and open minds. Heirarchy is a killer almost always. Smaller, more agile orgs almost always avoid heirarchy because it just slows things down and arbitrarily gives weight to things regardless of their importance.

Voices can have power without job titles or seniority. In an open forum, respect and openness to explore someone else's idea will resolve most conflicts. Often there is a deadlock where neither side is clearly better than the other.. so often a choice may be made by the collective. Or you can simply try both and reevaluate again at a later point. It's hard to say universally, it often depends on the subject.

Great article. Thanks so much. The rest should read it too. I agree with a lot of what it says.

I've always gone the facilitator route, especially if you are driven to have the "big idea" to present in 8 hours, the distill process has to be in the background.
I'm not a fan of immediate results brainstorming meetings in that many times the management is shown things that really require more baking and they sometimes kill something prematurely that could have been visionary, but they cannot see that.

The other thing with "group think" or critique is that it depends on who is in the group. The final result can lack passion and "point of view" if you have people slaving to a criteria set too low. It can truly be as formulaic "design by committee".

I posted the "Nuke EPCOT for Star Wars" idea because I knew it would get a violent reaction, and in that jarring atmosphere it would open everyone's minds to bigger, grander solutions than a SW "land" at DHS, which is logical, affordable and realistic. Not to say that it would or even should get done, but it does open the question "Is EPCOT the theme park a sustainable idea and is it taking the place of Walt's grander vision? This also opens the question of measuring how big could Star Wars ever be? How far can the idea be stretched? Resorts? Whatever.

Just my opinion, start huge and work backwards, if you start big enough where you land may be miles further out than if you started rationally. I always know that in my back pocket there is a SW land at DHS. It's a no brainer, but like Captain Kirk, our mission is to find new ideas in new galaxies where no man has gone before.

Here's a fun article on leadership lessons from Capt. Kirk and why the SW Empire failed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/03/05/five-leadership-lessons-from-james-t-kirk/
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
I posted the "Nuke EPCOT for Star Wars" idea because I knew it would get a violent reaction, and in that jarring atmosphere it would open everyone's minds to bigger, grander solutions than a SW "land" at DHS, which is logical, affordable and realistic. Not to say that it would or even should get done, but it does open the question "Is EPCOT the theme park a sustainable idea and is it taking the place of Walt's grander vision? This also opens the question of measuring how big could Star Wars ever be? How far can the idea be stretched? Resorts? Whatever.
That would be a really bad idea and I say that as an EPCOT fan and a die-hard Star Wars Fan. (Prequels included)
 

JLW11Hi

Well-Known Member
That would be a really bad idea and I say that as an EPCOT fan and a die-hard Star Wars Fan. (Prequels included)

I think you missed the point he was making in the text you quoted. Throwing a big idea like that out there gets people thinking and moving forward with new ideas. Saying "That's no good" and leaving it at that is a dead end. It's like improv. "Yes! and...."

I, too, think turning Epcot into a Star Wars park is a bit much, but perhaps having a giant Death Star act as a show building is a place to go from there. Just an example.
 

KevinYee

Well-Known Member
I think it's really instructive to put Epcot on the chopping block. It says there are no sacred cows - and it takes thinking like that to really push the envelope.

Like Eddie said, the "safe" option is always there to return to, but why not explore literally everything else and see if anything sticks?

I'm starting to see how many (most!) companies end up with the safe option, and never think to look into slaying sacred cows. It's an easier option (and takes less time, thus quicker). But that's also why most companies aren't Disney. I think it's safe to assume the industry-leading status comes at least partly from the willingness to go creatively where others haven't been before, and yes, that means thinking the unthinkable, if only as a starting point.

I'm glad you took the time not only to throw out the Epcot-Star Wars idea, Eddie, but also to explain why you did it. That's been one of my favorite parts of this mega-thread so far.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it!"

I think it's really instructive to put Epcot on the chopping block. It says there are no sacred cows - and it takes thinking like that to really push the envelope.

Like Eddie said, the "safe" option is always there to return to, but why not explore literally everything else and see if anything sticks?

I'm starting to see how many (most!) companies end up with the safe option, and never think to look into slaying sacred cows. It's an easier option (and takes less time, thus quicker). But that's also why most companies aren't Disney. I think it's safe to assume the industry-leading status comes at least partly from the willingness to go creatively where others haven't been before, and yes, that means thinking the unthinkable, if only as a starting point.

I'm glad you took the time not only to throw out the Epcot-Star Wars idea, Eddie, but also to explain why you did it. That's been one of my favorite parts of this mega-thread so far.

In our lifetimes we are seeing many "cows" slain (or at least bloodied). The Book, the landline Phone, the Typewriter, the Record (maybe the CD?) and the Newspaper. Not always gone, but toppled because someone replaced unthinkable stable institutions with a more desirable alternative. Apple is the biggest company because they reinvented the music business, mobile computing, and are on their way to reinventing publishing. I'm sure their brainstorming meetings were not about refining the portable CD experience. It was how to play more music smaller. It was not about
a cooler phone with their logo on it, it was putting OS X and a Mac experience into a phone. They actually "eat" their own products, nothing is sacred. Watch what is happening to the Tower and iMac over the next few years with touch computing and the iOS platform invading laptops.

The "Nuke EPCOT" option was proposed so the real EPCOT "Progress City" option Walt envisioned can happen. You may be able to add it to the park, but would the TP business model of the park prevent it from being a prototype community? Not sure. I do know that the decisions that are made in master planning EPCOT seem to address the needs of a theme park attendance, not so much inventing the future. Who knows what that would be, but the idea is that it would be a clean slate and new business model that would allow for breakthrough urban ideas to be demonstrated. Maybe it's a Resort and DVC model put together? If the WDC and other companies shared the patents that came out of reinventing green living communities, can you imagine the value of that? Computer pioneer and friend Alan Kay once said "The best way to predict the future is to invent it!". He's right.

Until you invent the next EPCOT on paper, you'll never get anyone to redo the existing one. Disney needs a "Gamechanger". Thinking safe does not do that.
 

Florida_is_hot

Well-Known Member
Got to love Apple fanboys.

Apple products, there are many more Android devices, a huge selection at half the price. They are more functional and out sell the iPhone.

Tablets are next, Apple's solution "innovate" no all the iPad got was a better screen and processor hardly innovation but Apple has a solution take competitors to court.

Computers Apple is less than 5% and after close to 30 years they will not ever become mainstream. Friend had a Apple laptop replaced it with a Windows Laptop because it did mot and was half the price.

EPCOT has nothing to do with Apple.

What drives, motivates Disney to make changes is gate receipts nothing less. They will not spend millions or maybe billions if the people come.

Corporations, sponsors do not seem to be lining up to invest money either.

You know I hate Apple for trying to control everything from iTunes to software to hardware, by selling product for too much money but they do not seem to be interested either.

But what do you know HP a windows company is an Epcot sponsor.

Want really change at Disney Parks, do not go.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Got to love Apple fanboys.

Apple products, there are many more Android devices, a huge selection at half the price. They are more functional and out sell the iPhone.

Tablets are next, Apple's solution "innovate" no all the iPad got was a better screen and processor hardly innovation but Apple has a solution take competitors to court.

Computers Apple is less than 5% and after close to 30 years they will not ever become mainstream. Friend had a Apple laptop replaced it with a Windows Laptop because it did mot and was half the price.

EPCOT has nothing to do with Apple.

What drives, motivates Disney to make changes is gate receipts nothing less. They will not spend millions or maybe billions if the people come.

Corporations, sponsors do not seem to be lining up to invest money either.

You know I hate Apple for trying to control everything from iTunes to software to hardware, by selling product for too much money but they do not seem to be interested either.

But what do you know HP a windows company is an Epcot sponsor.

Want really change at Disney Parks, do not go.

Agree.

BTW- I'm not here to debate Apple vs. the rest and I am a fanboy to a degree, but I will say Android would not exist if not for the iPhone. Same for the tablet market, "thinking different" is what caused that market to be invented. That is my point. It's bigger thinking. Apple costs more because it is a premium product as is Disney. People know that, and like Starbucks Coffee will pay more for it as it means something to them. Apple is successful in music not because they charged too much, in fact it's the opposite, they changed the rules and let you buy only the best songs from an album for 99 cents, this infuriated the music industry who loved bulking out CD's with lame tracks and making you buy them for one hit song for 17 bucks. I actually saved money on iTunes. As you point out, demand is what makes success. DRM is from the studios and record labels, and is insane. Even if you pay more for the sole rights free music you want, it is still cheaper than buying an entire CD. Look at how the Pruis "Hybrid" did the same by changing the rules. They started a trend and now all companies are doing hybrids. Next is the 3 Cylinder engine.

Point being, "Gamechanger" bigger thinking has an impact on a whole industry. Look at WWHP. It is causing Disney and other to reexamine why theming and immersion work so well. Details matter.

If EPCOT was perceived as THE place to experience the future, I bet sponsors would line up for it. The fact is that EPCOT would probably not be able to sustain itself if it was built as a stand alone off the Disney property. It needs to be part of the bigger WDW offering and does well as a compliment.

You make good points, and next time I will use someone other than Apple as an example.
 

Ralphlaw

Well-Known Member
I think that the "no sacred cow" "let's blow up what we have" brainstorming method of doing things also has a serious downside. I fear such sessions blind people to the strength of what you already have, and allows some truly mediocre changes to gain momentum. Stitch's Great Escape, which nobody seems to like, may have arisen from this. It's a bad attraction that gained momentum somewhere without true thought going into a truly good alternative, or even keeping the old attraction until something good could be developed.

The new and terrible narration for the Tomorrowland Transit Authority is a bland atrocity that appears to have been born from a desire to point out the gift shops while tearing the heart out from a cleverly written attraction. The old narration, with great voices and a tranforming way of making you feel as if you really were in a spaceport somewhere, was dumped because of some stupidity somewhere. Was it a short-sighted brainstorming decision that ripped out the old narration?

And Judi Dench's Spacehsip Earth narration sounds more like an old schoolmarm than the timeless traveller of history that Jeremy Irons' voice brought. I like Judi, and I like the update, but Jeremy's voice was better for that attraction.

All changes, yes, but the positive properties of a valuable established component appear to get lost because momentum leads to something that everyone wrongly thought could have been so much better. Perhaps I'm conservative by nature, but I instantly assess the old and discardable thing for its positives before jumping onto some new bandwagon that leads to lesser results. New Coke is a prime example. Unfortunately, once that momentum get's going, people are less likely to speak up and say, "Is this really any good?" Sometimes that emperor just doesn't have any new clothes, and the old outfits are good and sitting back in the closet.

Blowing up, at times, can lead to this result, in my opinion. For me, blow it up by first asking, "What are the true positives of Epcot?" Search for those first, then consider blowing it up after your positives are well considered. Otherwise, the blow up may gain momentum and the positives are forgotten. Who wouldn't get excited about transforming Epcot into something completely different? Once that energy starts flowing, it's fun. Meanwhile, the beauty of the current Epcot is ignored, looking old and stale compared to that transforming idea that everyone is abuzz with. You walk around and think about the changes, becoming blind to the greatness of what you already have. Therein lies a true dowside, and some care must be focussed to keep such obviously bad changes from being made.
 

DougK

Well-Known Member
So we all agree, tear down EPCOT and replace it with a meet and greet.

You know what? I don't think I am Imagineer material.

:)
 

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