Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[KevinYee]

Can I ask about soap box racers?

I loved this ride as a tween/teen, though I never actually built a soap box racer in my own street. So I'm curious why a designer would glom onto that. Did you build one as a kid? How did you know that even us non-builders would love the eventual ride? Are there design principles here at stake (such as: everybody would love to be/do "x" even if they've never done it themselves?)

 

[bayoubelle]

My husband equates flying now a days to a "Greyhound in the sky". I guess Disney has become that to an extent. When I first went with my family in 1973, it was a big, BIG deal on par with a first trip to Europe. Today it's more like, "You haven't been to Disney World yet?" or "You've only been to Disney World one time?" It's no longer consider a luxury trip.
On one hand, I would not mind seeing prices go up to keep down the crowds but on the other hand, it's nice that a lot of people can enjoy it. conundrums

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Can I ask about soap box racers?

I loved this ride as a tween/teen, though I never actually built a soap box racer in my own street. So I'm curious why a designer would glom onto that. Did you build one as a kid? How did you know that even us non-builders would love the eventual ride? Are there design principles here at stake (such as: everybody would love to be/do "x" even if they've never done it themselves?)

The "Soapbox Racer" ride was actually the antidote to a serious problem. The ride system that was operating on those rails was a motorcycle type vehicle with a very high center of gravity (Cycle Chase). So in effect, the guest was riding very high above the track with a very banked turns. Guests sat on small lowback seats with seatbelts and no lap bar. Their back was not supported either. They had to hold onto handlebars like a bicycle for their own safety. Don't ask me how this got built. Link to images below.

http://www.themeparkreview.com/parks/photo.php?pageid=345&linkid=5926

I got my job at Knott's because I had proposed a flume style ride on the scale of Pirates of the Caribbean. That did not fly. In the absence of that project not being approved, I was forced to find something else to do or be sent right back to the street. My boss told me about all these lawsuits that were occurring because of these "Motorcycles" and guests being dragged around the track strapped to the seat by hanging off the back of the bike. Ouch. I went to watch them operate and ride it a few times.

I thought that if you could lower the center of gravity as on a bobsled, or a log type vehicle then the problem would go away. The ride itself featured four tracks and based on gravity, so guests could virtually race each other. The track was laid out like a raceway so sometimes your track was on the inside and you would gain the advantage. Kids absolutely adored this idea. Since we were in the "Roaring 20's" section of the park I was thinking about how kids would race and remembered the "Our Gang" comedies where kids made their own cars from crates and stuff. I went home and made a model out of paper of a cute little soapbox racer for two. (Think Mr. Toad meets Pimp my Ride) Later they enlarged it to coffin size, much to my anguish. I presented this model to the Knott Family as the solution to their legal problems and the new ride for next year. I kept my job and had a ride to build on an impossible deadline and budget.

They approved the project and we had less than six months to design and build the entire "outdoor dark ride". It was actually quite a hit for the park and got 120% of the gate. This proved how much kids love to ride it over and over and over. I have never been involved in building soapbox racer cars or anything like that, just thought that the theme was a good idea and fit the area of the park. It was meant to be more of a living cartoon than anything else. I am still surprised when people walk up to me and are excited to hear that I worked on that attraction. It was the very first thing I ever did.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

My husband equates flying now a days to a "Greyhound in the sky". I guess Disney has become that to an extent. When I first went with my family in 1973, it was a big, BIG deal on par with a first trip to Europe. Today it's more like, "You haven't been to Disney World yet?" or "You've only been to Disney World one time?" It's no longer consider a luxury trip.
On one hand, I would not mind seeing prices go up to keep down the crowds but on the other hand, it's nice that a lot of people can enjoy it. conundrums

When I watch some of the old Disney specials and I see how guests are dressed and how the whole experience of the park played out back then, it really gives me pause to reflect on just how special everything was. I recently watched this wonderful world of Disney where they were announcing Pirates and the new Tomorrowland and it was very obvious how absent Walt Disney was from these proceedings. There was this vacuum in the "what's next" department. I think one aspect to Walt Disney World is that it was a vital "work in progress", not a revisitation of your own childhood. I remember being impressed with how the trash was pneumatically carried away, or how the plants are irrigated from the basement below. It was like Disney had a different and better way to do almost anything. Walt Disney World was just that, another world. Now it's visiting those feelings and hoping they continue. Both have a lot of value, but the notion of the future being invented before your eyes is powerful in of itself.

Even the films were special as you had to wait seven years before you could see your favorite Disney classic again. Today we live in a world of commodities and the whole idea of a masterpiece like Pinocchio being available at Costco for less than $10 on DVD seems kind of criminal. Have we devalued all of these works of tremendous effort and art? of course the DVD is not the same as seeing the movie on the big screen, but owning your own print would have been not heard of but I was growing up. Still, I love the idea of owning it and the price is right!!!

 

[modegreen]

As you all know, the Magic Kingdom has the broadest appeal of any of the parks and so it has historically been a "must see" of Walt Disney World.

Epcot, from opening day, was meant to be a full-day experience. Clearly, the Studios and Animal Kingdom weren't (and maybe not even to this day). Was that a conscious decision or a financial one? And if it's the latter, how was that justified inside WDI?

Actually, it seems like all second gates were lacking after Epcot was built. Even DisneySea, which looks beautiful (and Disney geeks gush over), didn't have too many real attractions built on opening day.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Eddie, let me say thanks for the Soap Box Racers. They were my absolute favorite attraction at Knotts- and I was sad when they left. Always rode them at least twice each visit. (Why did they leave?) I had no idea you were behind those!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Epcot, from opening day, was meant to be a full-day experience. Clearly, the Studios and Animal Kingdom weren't (and maybe not even to this day). Was that a conscious decision or a financial one? And if it's the latter, how was that justified inside WDI?

Actually, it seems like all second gates were lacking after Epcot was built. Even DisneySea, which looks beautiful (and Disney geeks gush over), didn't have too many real attractions built on opening day.

The MGM Studios were conceived to be a stop gap against Universal and were a half day for sure. I used to read many complaints about the lack of value. The truth is that they (corporate) weather the storm to get the park opened on a minimum investment and then add ride capacity the second and third year as demand grows. They didn't market the park as a half day and charge full admission, thus the complaints.

In the case of the bigger parks, the "environment" usually gets you through the first year or so. DLP was that way too.

 

[NoChesterHester]

The MGM Studios were conceived to be a stop gap against Universal and were a half day for sure. I used to read many complaints about the lack of value. The truth is that they (corporate) weather the storm to get the park opened on a minimum investment and then add ride capacity the second and third year as demand grows. They didn't market the park as a half day and charge full admission, thus the complaints.

In the case of the bigger parks, the "environment" usually gets you through the first year or so. DLP was that way too.

Environment can only get you so far. Animal Kingdom is arguably the most completely themed of any of the stateside parks, yet was woefully underbuilt from day one. Here we are some 12 or so years later with a beautiful park with unfulfilled promises.

I often wonder what the hundreds of millions they spent to build AK would have done to advance MGM Studios and Epcot.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Environment can only get you so far. Animal Kingdom is arguably the most completely themed of any of the stateside parks, yet was woefully underbuilt from day one. Here we are some 12 or so years later with a beautiful park with unfulfilled promises.

I often wonder what the hundreds of millions they spent to build AK would have done to advance MGM Studios and Epcot.

True, there has to be entertainment value. I get what you mean, (but there are those who love AK, love every bush and element, and see the environment as the show).

 

[KevinYee]

The "Soapbox Racer" ride was actually the antidote to a serious problem.

Fantastic story! Thanks. Haven't heard any of those details before. I'd also not seen those pics before on Robb's site. Is an Eddie Sotto drawing?

 

[modegreen]

Comparatively, California Adventure actually seemed like more of a complete park on day one than the Studios or Animal Kingdom. I know that's not a popular opinion... Of course, DCA is going through it's makeover, which will probably make the park a better experience.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I just wanted to be the first on part II. Thanks Eddie, you 've been very kind!

Comparatively, California Adventure actually seemed like more of a complete park on day one than the Studios or Animal Kingdom. I know that's not a popular opinion... Of course, DCA is going through it's makeover, which will probably make the park a better experience.

I think you are right. There were way more attractions opening day than MGM although it was quantity over quality. It had only Great Movie Ride besides the tour tram and was no bigger than MK Fantasyland, so DCA was so much more.

DLP had more rides than MGM, but was still light compared to DL. No JC, Tiki, Matterhorn, SM, Indy, etc. They quickly added capacity.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Fantastic story! Thanks. Haven't heard any of those details before. I'd also not seen those pics before on Robb's site. Is an Eddie Sotto drawing?

Yes, and an early black light mural at that (work lights are on). There was a facade of sewer pipes you dive through very quickly and then make a hard and fast right (would LITERALLY take off your arm if you reach out on the right hand track, just look at the wall!), so you just glimpsed the backlight painting. Most of the art in the ride was based on my own cartooning. I have no formal training, and being 21 with no experience at all, I was left with lots of inspiration from "Rat Fink" (a character I copied and loved to draw as a kid along with his muscle cars) and MAD Magazine to lean on. Believe it or not, Ed "Big Daddy" Roth, creator of "Rat Fink" worked at Knott's in the Sign Dept. at the time. I was in such childhood awe it was hard to even approach him, but he was so kind and humble. If I had known that when I was doing the ride I would have asked him to design all the Rats!!!

If you are not familiar with Ed, he is the MAN....

http://www.ratfink.com/ed-roth-cars.php

 

[NoChesterHester]

but there are those who love AK, love every bush and element, and see the environment as the show

I'm one of them. I spend a huge amount of time in that park every trip and my kids love it. We seek out all the little nuggets scattered throughout the park and are always really impressed with the detail of the environment (minus Dinorama). We get the environment, but we are a family of designers and I know from the discussions on the boards that most don't feel this way.

I'm proud of the job that WDI did on AK. I just want it to go rewarded and I know that can't really happen until capacity is increased in terms of new rides / attractions.

I love your posts on the foreign parks. We do hope to visit them all some day.

 

[flynnibus]

As much as we would like to see a gamechanger, we'll have to settle for "advancing by degrees"; more advanced audio-animatronics, better queues(interactive doesn't always mean better), interactive games throughout the park (recent rumors), rides that seemlessly use advanced technology.

Dunno.. the type of entertainment you can offer still has the sky as the limit. Be it new types of rides... new types of customized experiences.. etc. Look at how much Uni is mixing film, motion, and physical effects to such great combination. Look at the technology possible in Mission:Space. Look at the one-on-one type of experiences possible at Discovery Cove. I think there is lot still to expand into... challenges come when you want scale right out of the gate. It's hard to build something of that breath and capacity like a new park when you have such huge gorillas all around you driving you to be big to be significant at all.

You can't latch onto Disney and just sit in Orlando and expect to get foot traffic... you have to fight to get people off Disney or Uni property. I think honestly someone would have a better shot opening a new property in SoCal. Population is there without the resort-lock that FL has.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Dunno.. the type of entertainment you can offer still has the sky as the limit. Be it new types of rides... new types of customized experiences.. etc. Look at how much Uni is mixing film, motion, and physical effects to such great combination. Look at the technology possible in Mission:Space. Look at the one-on-one type of experiences possible at Discovery Cove. I think there is lot still to expand into... challenges come when you want scale right out of the gate. It's hard to build something of that breath and capacity like a new park when you have such huge gorillas all around you driving you to be big to be significant at all.

You can't latch onto Disney and just sit in Orlando and expect to get foot traffic... you have to fight to get people off Disney or Uni property. I think honestly someone would have a better shot opening a new property in SoCal. Population is there without the resort-lock that FL has.

My goal would be to make all those places seem obsolete overnight. You go do this new thing and say to yourself, why did I wait in those lines all these years? Look at what Pirates did in 1967.....1967! I got off that ride at 9 years old literally stunned. My grandfather who could care less about Disneyland got back in line and went again because he could not believe what he had seen.

 

[flynnibus]

My goal would be to make all those places seem obsolete overnight. You go do this new thing and say to yourself, why did I wait in those lines all these years? Look at what Pirates did in 1967.....1967! I got off that ride at 9 years old literally stunned. My grandfather who could care less about Disneyland got back in line and went again because he could not believe what he had seen.

I think there has been cool experiences not found in the parks.. things like the Star Trek Experience, etc. The challenge always seems to be building up critical mass so people stop complaining why something costs $25 to ride once

 

[ChrisFL]

My goal would be to make all those places seem obsolete overnight. You go do this new thing and say to yourself, why did I wait in those lines all these years? Look at what Pirates did in 1967.....1967! I got off that ride at 9 years old literally stunned. My grandfather who could care less about Disneyland got back in line and went again because he could not believe what he had seen.

Exactly, there are definitely ways to create something that is way beyond what we know is the best out there....I mean, we're seeing some great things, but things can be sooo much better.

Take, for example, what Disney is just now getting involved in with Star Tours 2...a unique ride experience nearly every time you ride, up to 54 different rides, although yes, that isn't exactly 54 completely unique rides but that is just one direction where things could be going.

I had ideas for ride concepts back when I was 12 years old in 1990 that STILL haven't been created yet (I had the initial ideas for projects back then, that Disney went on later to use themselves....Soarin' and CyberSpace Mountain to name a couple)

 

[RandySavage]

A number of the recent topics here - crowds hurting the park experience, using the parks as canvas for magiquest-type games, and what is the game-changer - brings to mind the Jungle Trek/Night Kingdom concept.

From the marketing/test survey materials:

"Get ready for The Jungle Trek, the newest premium vacation experience by Disney. Set off on a guided expedition through the wilds of the world, discovering natural beauty and the magic of faraway places. Explore these exotic locations and have the exciting hands-on adventures you have always wanted to have. And do it all in one place, all in one day … all by taking The Jungle Trek!

Your five (5) hour experience will be an eye-opening adventure from the moment it begins:
Set off on The Jungle Trek, a one-of-a-kind two (2) hour adventure experience. From crossing rickety bridges or navigating narrow paths, to encountering rare animals upclose and discovering the hidden secrets of ancient ruins, there are unbelievable experiences at each stage of your journey. Work together with your small expedition party to do things that few ever get to do… and that you will never forget.
Arrive in the Global Village, where you can spend the next three (3) hours resting, relaxing and exploring further. From animals to architecture, from entertainment to more ziplining thrills - you choose how best to enjoy all that this intimate Village offers.
And don't forget to stop by the Marketplace for a casual, festive dining atmosphere filled with the flavours and foods from each of the regions. Pick what you like and then find a comfortable spot in the Village to enjoy. And you are welcome to return for more whenever you like.

The Jungle Trek is a real adventure made accessible by Disney magic:
Throughout the jungle expedition, you choose whether to tackle each hands-on challenge or take a less intense but equally spectacular path. So, your family can enjoy the journey together while each person has exactly the experience he or she wants to have.
And no matter what path you choose, you can rest assured that Disney is focused on your safety and comfort. Your safety harness and your personal guide can make sure that you have an amazing adventure.
Children as young as 7 years old can participate in The Jungle Trek.
Guests with disabilities who are able to maneuver themselves with limited assistance can also participate.

The Jungle Trek is a premium, exclusive experience:
Your very own personal adventure guide leads your expedition party of around 8 people through the wild. Learn about adventure and the natural world from this experienced explorer.
Since only a limited number of guests will take the Trek each day, enjoy it all with no lines, no crowds, and no waits.
A single admission price that includes all the elements of this exclusive experience - the Jungle Trek, the Global Village, the live shows, soft drinks, and the global cuisine!

Preparing for the Jungle Trek is easy:
Reservations are required for this premium, limited-capacity experience. Either go online, call Disney's reservation agents, or contact your travel agent to schedule your visit.
You can select the date and time of your departure on The Jungle Trek, There are Treks departing throughout the day and into the night.

There's never been an experience like The Jungle Trek - where you can write your own story, achieving things you never imagined, going on adventures few people ever get to go on … and doing it all in one day, all in one place. So, are you ready to begin your journey?

Exploring Cambodian ruins
Zipline into Tropical Americas
Observing and feeding river hippos
Observing and feeding bats
Passing through the Lions Canyon
Trek through the Tropical Americas rainforest
Riding a boat into Tropical Americas
Riding a boat out of Africa
Encountering awakening spirits in the Spirit House
Enjoying authentic, live entertainment throughout the Global Village
Taking a break at the Lodge rest area
Passing through the Throne Room over teetering stone columns
Enjoying a range of global cuisine in the Marketplace
Enjoying Mayan temple ruins
Getting up close and personal with penguins and tortoises on the beach
Crossing the tightrope bridge over tigers
Crossing the suspended bridge over crocodiles
Walking with kangaroos through the Australian outback
Walking through the head-high grass in the African Savannah"

 

[KevinYee]

My goal would be to make all those places seem obsolete overnight. You go do this new thing and say to yourself, why did I wait in those lines all these years? Look at what Pirates did in 1967.....1967! I got off that ride at 9 years old literally stunned. My grandfather who could care less about Disneyland got back in line and went again because he could not believe what he had seen.

I think I get what you're saying... none of the ideas floated in recent years, let alone built, has the astounding "wow" value that PotC did back in 1967. Where is the "wow" value of 2011? Obviously, not an AA extravaganza. It's hard to say what it SHOULD be, except to note that anyone stepping off it will immediately decide to get right back in line. Probably dazed to the point where they aren't quite sure WHAT they just saw, but knew they had to see it again.

Somebody please hire Eddie so he can build his ideas!!