Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I don't know if you've seen this but if not you might get a chuckle out of it. The website TV Tropes has the trope 'Crapsaccharine World' which it describes as "A setting which, at first sight, looks nice and cute. [...] Suddenly, you notice something wrong, and upon investigating, you realize that every single thing below the surface is horribly wrong and dysfunctional." Funnily, they use Main Street, U.S.A. as an example of this because of the audio bits which I think you had a hand in. Here's what it says:

"Main Street USA, of all places. Some (possibly now-disused) audio bits played from certain second-story windows reveal, among other things, that the local dentist is life-threateningly incompetent at his job (and doesn't seem to care if one of his patients is seriously injured during a procedure), the fire chief (who is also the postmaster and general store owner) cannot begin to comprehend the idea that a fire is a dangerous emergency that requires IMMEDIATE action, the town populace is extremely prone to spreading gossip and will openly and offensively insult one another on occasion, the police have totaled their new paddy wagon and are engaged in a cover-up to keep the Mayor from becoming aware, and the piano teacher is physically abusive to the children she teaches (that last one, unfortunately, could be considered accurate for the time period MSUSA is set in). It's all Played for Laughs, but when you think about it too hard..."

Don't think...All true. they are negative but intentional. They are all accurate to a degree. Guilty as charged.

There were coverups back then too. Small town life was full of busybodies and that's something depicted in Disney movies too. Party lines are where you heard the dirt. I think the idea was to poke fun at how things were in the past. Imagine no calling 911? I'd love time travel, but don't want to have to see the dentist back in those times or wait for the volunteer Fire Dept. We have much to be thankful for. I was the voice of most of those characters and participated in the writing and production of those upstairs gags. They are first inspired by the window audio found in the town of Rainbow Ridge, part of the attraction "Mine Train thru Nature's Wonderland".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hi Eddie,

Firstly I'd like to just say its fantastic to have you here!

I was wondering if you could answer something for me. Hypothetically, if you were still with Disney, and you were asked to improve the design of Tomorrowland and Epcot's Future World, what would you do? I ask this because whilst these two sections are my favourite, they also do appear to be stuck in the 80's to some extent.

Strangely, its because they have this retro feel that I think I love them so much. My worry is that they wont appear as relevant or as futuristic as they are supposed to be, yet at the same time provide an excellent insight to how the parks were designed.

Looking at old photos, they haven't changed all that dramatically. They both sport the same or similar color schemes and layouts. Do you think that a major upgrade will soon become a necessity to keep them at the forefront of their focus on future technology?

When you think about the attractions, even they do still seem to be very dated, whilst still being very entertaining. (E.g Ellen, Carousel of Progress, etc). Was Disney once planning a major update with the likes of Mission Space sadly replacing Horizons? Could this also be why Disney opted not to keep Wonders of Life operational without a sponsor?

Thanks again!

Here's an article done a while back that answers your question and began this thread! Lots about what I'd do at EPCOT and Tomorrowland.

http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/2009/05/wwed-armchair-imagineering-with-eddie.html

I worked on MSpace and it was because Horizons had low popularity. The "what's next" content of Horizons needs to be in the ball in my opinion. It left a big whole in the story and expectation of EPCOT. Space is only a piece.

 

[tirian]

Here's an article done a while back that answers your question and began this thread! Lots about what I'd do at EPCOT and Tomorrowland.

http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/2009/05/wwed-armchair-imagineering-with-eddie.html

I worked on MSpace and it was because Horizons had low popularity. The "what's next" content of Horizons needs to be in the ball in my opinion. It left a big whole in the story and expectation of EPCOT. Space is only a piece.

I always thought the concept behind Horizons belonged in SSE rather than the history of communication. To some degree, WDI addressed this with the most recent update; yet a subpar script and unfinished finale detract from the elegance of former versions. ("Remember how easy is was to learn your ABCs? Thank the Phoenicians...Rome built the first world-wide web..." :lol

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I always thought the concept behind Horizons belonged in SSE rather than the history of communication. To some degree, WDI addressed this with the most recent update; yet a subpar script and unfinished finale detract from the elegance of former versions. ("Remember how easy is was to learn your ABCs? Thank the Phoenicians...Rome built the first world-wide web..." :lol

As they say, Rome didn't crash in a day.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Honeycomb Uncle shades

Today's Avitar is a screenshot of Robert Vaughn as Napoleon Solo in the TV series "The Man From UNCLE". The inflight show of choice this morning. Those Honeycomb sunglasses are insane. Hey now! I want a pair now!

 

[esskay]

Here's an article done a while back that answers your question and began this thread! Lots about what I'd do at EPCOT and Tomorrowland.

http://imagineeringdisney.blogspot.com/2009/05/wwed-armchair-imagineering-with-eddie.html

I worked on MSpace and it was because Horizons had low popularity. The "what's next" content of Horizons needs to be in the ball in my opinion. It left a big whole in the story and expectation of EPCOT. Space is only a piece.

Thanks Eddie, fantastic article That provides a great insight into some really good plans. I too share your idea that the Energy pavilion could be made into so much more if it were to be updated at some point.

(P.S Loved the movie clips you linked up to - the Imagineers offices look like a fantastic place to work!)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks Eddie, fantastic article That provides a great insight into some really good plans. I too share your idea that the Energy pavilion could be made into so much more if it were to be updated at some point.

(P.S Loved the movie clips you linked up to - the Imagineers offices look like a fantastic place to work!)

They were. Not lush, but fun and expressive. That space is now used by another department (much nicer environs too), so what you saw is history.

 

[flavious27]

I hear it's pretty good this year. Tom Morris, a very talented Imagineer is working on the "Carousel of Projects", so I'm sure it's worth checking out.

I am sure it is always worth checking out to see what disney could and or will be doing in the future. It would just be better that what is proposed is built and not just vaporware. I know d23 is a marketing event first and foremost, anyone should be able to see that.

 

[trs518]

Imagineering Blog

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is a blog by former Imagineer Mark Hickson.

http://www.disneybymark.com/

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is a blog by former Imagineer Mark Hickson.

http://www.disneybymark.com/

Very Fun....thanks for posting.

 

[The Rat King]

Here's a question...

Is there really a market, or maybe need is a better word, for a new theme park?

I know a lot of people wish for a 5th park at WDW or another part of the country and it'd undoubtably get guest, but would it be a success in the long run as opposed to improving upon current parks and making them fresher (such as the FLE). It keeps making me think of the AK and how it feels sort of stale to me at least after repeat visits (using it as the example since it was the newest). It filled a niche, but people still want more. Maybe that answers the overall question, but would improving a park be more beneficial than opening a new one probably is the refined question.

At the same time, leaving disney to the side, I don't consider Universal Studios to be a "theme" park. The rides tie in with the movies, but I dont get the same sense of escapism I do with disney. I know I'm just in a flashy amusement park. I havent been to IoA since I was a kid and it first opened, but that seemed to me to be their try at doing something with better theming and I never felt like it paid off. The lands felt too small and the transitions were very "in your face". (And I never understood how slapping superhero images or others on a generic ride counts as theming. A green rollercoaster called the Hulk doesn't give me a sense Im truly in another place. Its just a name) Maybe the wizarding world improves IoA a ton, I dont know, but would Universal Studios be better off having a new theme park somewhere with a truly all out theme to it. Where it really transplants you into the movies and such? Thats where I can see a need for another park.

Im sure arguments can be made for a theme park outside of UniS and WDW, a brand new one based off whatever concept, but where would it fit in and how would it rival the big 2?

I dont know if I let my mind wander too much with this post and made any sense.

 

[atsolomon]

Hi Eddie,

Have you ever heard of the UK theatre group PunchDrunk? They do immersive/non-traditional theatre. In Brookline, MA they took an unused school and turned into a walk through mashup of Macbeth and Hitchcock's Rebecca called "Sleep No More". There was no spoken dialogue and the audience had to wear masks. They are doing a version of it now in NYC.

In the UK right now they have a short piece based on "Dr Who" which is aimed at kids. See http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/16/t...l?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha28&pagewanted=all

I imagine that the personnel costs for something like this are very high, the hourly throughput is low, and by its nature every performance/experience is different. Each of those make it difficult to port something like this into a theme park, but it (Sleep No More) was an amazing experience. Could you see Disney implementing something like this -- imagine having real actors in a walk through set. It would be an incredible experience for guests.

Thanks!

Adam

 

[flavious27]

Here's a question...

Is there really a market, or maybe need is a better word, for a new theme park?

I know a lot of people wish for a 5th park at WDW or another part of the country and it'd undoubtably get guest, but would it be a success in the long run as opposed to improving upon current parks and making them fresher (such as the FLE). It keeps making me think of the AK and how it feels sort of stale to me at least after repeat visits (using it as the example since it was the newest). It filled a niche, but people still want more. Maybe that answers the overall question, but would improving a park be more beneficial than opening a new one probably is the refined question.

I dont know if I let my mind wander too much with this post and made any sense.

Well logic would say that a new gate would be needed when the ideas and themes for attractions being brainstormed do not match the existing gates, even with an expansion. The attractions in DAK really would not work in the other gates, the same for those in DHS and mostly for EPCOT.

When Disney is able to use the Marvel IP, is there a gate that can properly host them? I really don't think so; DHS is modeled on a hollywood studio theme, lots of Marvel IP is themed around NYC.

The same can be said for LOTR, if disney was ever able to land that contract. That IP could not properly fit into the existing gates, no matter how great of a job that wdi would do.

DAK I don't think is the best example to compare against a new gate because DAK is unique to other theme parks in the world. I do agree that DAK does feel stale if you don't have kids, there are areas that designed more towards them then the general public.

Expansion is needed as part of the master plan for wdw, along with adding a 5th gate and more resorts and other attractions. MK still has alot of land that can be used to expand that gate, with themes that with work. DHS not only has room to expand, it has land that needs to be redeveloped. EPCOT has an empty building and many lots around WS. DAK has two large plots of land that can be used to turn it into an almost day long park.

With any new gate, the question would be asked if this adds another category of theming. With any new expansion, the question should be asked if it would work and fit in.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Here's a question...

Is there really a market, or maybe need is a better word, for a new theme park?

I know a lot of people wish for a 5th park at WDW or another part of the country and it'd undoubtably get guest, but would it be a success in the long run as opposed to improving upon current parks and making them fresher (such as the FLE). It keeps making me think of the AK and how it feels sort of stale to me at least after repeat visits (using it as the example since it was the newest). It filled a niche, but people still want more. Maybe that answers the overall question, but would improving a park be more beneficial than opening a new one probably is the refined question.

At the same time, leaving disney to the side, I don't consider Universal Studios to be a "theme" park. The rides tie in with the movies, but I dont get the same sense of escapism I do with disney. I know I'm just in a flashy amusement park. I havent been to IoA since I was a kid and it first opened, but that seemed to me to be their try at doing something with better theming and I never felt like it paid off. The lands felt too small and the transitions were very "in your face". (And I never understood how slapping superhero images or others on a generic ride counts as theming. A green rollercoaster called the Hulk doesn't give me a sense Im truly in another place. Its just a name) Maybe the wizarding world improves IoA a ton, I dont know, but would Universal Studios be better off having a new theme park somewhere with a truly all out theme to it. Where it really transplants you into the movies and such? Thats where I can see a need for another park.

Im sure arguments can be made for a theme park outside of UniS and WDW, a brand new one based off whatever concept, but where would it fit in and how would it rival the big 2?

I dont know if I let my mind wander too much with this post and made any sense.

Great post and welcome to the thread.

I think the next great "theme park" should not be a "theme park" at all.

Here's what I mean. To me, theme parks have become cliche's of themselves by perpetuating the same format over and over inside the park. The queue, pre-show, ride, post show and gift shop with the "I survived" franchise merchandise. Do that six times and you wonder why you came. The themed "lands" no longer immerse or transform, they are thin veneers over food carts, gift shops and parade seating. The ritual of revisiting your childhood as it was has nostalgic value, but is that the extent of the entertainment? I want to escape and really feel it. Where is the "gamechanger" in theme parks? It starts by saying why is "escape" confined to theme parks? I've been spending the last few years digging for the "immersive" gold in other fields and thinking of different ways to reinvent the whole mess. I like how WDI is questioning the whole notion of the queue, and looking at NextGen things. It's time for a breakthrough in this industry, not just more theming and a bigger store. Movie franchises do not last in the consciousness as they once did, so rides hung on a movie are more risky too. It's true that the guests love total immersion that extends through the retail and food, like WWHP does. Disney should see that and get back into leading their own business but take a leap into something completely different.

As for more parks, I think "urban renewal" is better than "urban sprawl", so i'm in favor of cleaning your own house instead of ditching it. If the "next level" is that unique then it may have to be it's own park, or rather experience then it's justified. I'm just waiting for the right client to explore this stuff with or I'd be doing it right now.

 

[The Rat King]

Thanks for the replies!

Now my mind is wandering in all sorts of (good) directions.

Speaking of Disney...I remember way back when there was an idea for a Disneyquest in NY (I'm originally from LI so maybe thats why this stuck with me), but then the DTD Disneyquest didn't do so well (or something along those lines).

From the outside video and pamphlets, Disneyquest sounds like an amazing concept..but when you actually go inside and on some of their "rides", they dont seem to live up to the hype. Which is probably why its mostly empty (except in the busy season). Is Disneyquest something that should be improved upon to the point it feels like more than an arcade? I'd love to hear your opinions about Disneyquest.

I think the headsets that put you into certain rides were innovative, but the they also are incredibly bulky and sometimes interfered with the control of lets say, the sword in the superhero part or the carpet joystick in the virtual flying carpet area. Should disney be pushing it to go further?

(Soarin' pops into my mind here. Imagine Soarin' with full immersiveness. That would be fun!)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the replies!

Now my mind is wandering in all sorts of (good) directions.

Speaking of Disney...I remember way back when there was an idea for a Disneyquest in NY (I'm originally from LI so maybe thats why this stuck with me), but then the DTD Disneyquest didn't do so well (or something along those lines).

From the outside video and pamphlets, Disneyquest sounds like an amazing concept..but when you actually go inside and on some of their "rides", they dont seem to live up to the hype. Which is probably why its mostly empty (except in the busy season). Is Disneyquest something that should be improved upon to the point it feels like more than an arcade? I'd love to hear your opinions about Disneyquest.

I think the headsets that put you into certain rides were innovative, but the they also are incredibly bulky and sometimes interfered with the control of lets say, the sword in the superhero part or the carpet joystick in the virtual flying carpet area. Should disney be pushing it to go further?

(Soarin' pops into my mind here. Imagine Soarin' with full immersiveness. That would be fun!)

I need to be "hired" to answer those kinds of questions

 

[The Rat King]

:lol:

 

[ChrisFL]

Great post and welcome to the thread.

I think the next great "theme park" should not be a "theme park" at all.

Here's what I mean. To me, theme parks have become cliche's of themselves by perpetuating the same format over and over inside the park. The queue, pre-show, ride, post show and gift shop with the "I survived" franchise merchandise. Do that six times and you wonder why you came. The themed "lands" no longer immerse or transform, they are thin veneers over food carts, gift shops and parade seating. The ritual of revisiting your childhood as it was has nostalgic value, but is that the extent of the entertainment? I want to escape and really feel it. Where is the "gamechanger" in theme parks? It starts by saying why is "escape" confined to theme parks? I've been spending the last few years digging for the "immersive" gold in other fields and thinking of different ways to reinvent the whole mess. I like how WDI is questioning the whole notion of the queue, and looking at NextGen things. It's time for a breakthrough in this industry, not just more theming and a bigger store. Movie franchises do not last in the consciousness as they once did, so rides hung on a movie are more risky too. It's true that the guests love total immersion that extends through the retail and food, like WWHP does. Disney should see that and get back into leading their own business but take a leap into something completely different.

As for more parks, I think "urban renewal" is better than "urban sprawl", so i'm in favor of cleaning your own house instead of ditching it. If the "next level" is that unique then it may have to be it's own park, or rather experience then it's justified. I'm just waiting for the right client to explore this stuff with or I'd be doing it right now.

I love this post because I've been thinking along the same lines myself.

I think we're seeing an evolution of what a theme park should be...

If we recount the days before Disneyland (long before I was born), the standard amusement park experience was:

1.) See a sign for a ride, and the ride itself
2.) Decide to get in line...which was basically that, a line...(having no idea how long the wait is)
3.) Get on the basic rollercoaster, spinner, etc. and have fun for 2 minutes
4.) Get off the ride...repeat at the next one.

We all know what Disneyland brought to this, it was no longer a "ride" or a "show", it was an "attraction".

Now we're approaching a point where the true identity of a "queue" is becoming completely blurred.

Let's all think about WDW's Haunted Mansion...just for a moment, act like you've never experienced the attraction before. Where does the experience begin? At the ride? no...there's now tons of stuff before you get there? At the stretching room? no, there's plenty of stuff before that. At the tombstones? Well, with the new interactive queue, not there either. What about the look of the Mansion, the howling dog/wolf?

Even Expedition:Everest, the experience starts long before you actually get into the queue itself...

I agree that the experiences in theme parks do have a lot of potential that is so far unrealized, but we're slowly moving in the right direction.

 

[trs518]

Most of the ideas that I hear for a fifth gate, to me, don't seem that interesting. Mostly because they're not that different from what's out there; Villians Park, Marvel Park, and a Thrill Ride park. Essentially they're all attraction based parks.

Each park has a different reason/mission.

EPCOT: Progress City
Animal Kingdom: Zoo
Magic Kingdom: Attraction based park; rides and shows.
Hollywood Studios: Creating Movies and TV shows, although it has morphed into an attraction based park.

Whatever they do should differentiate itself from the other parks. I like what Eddie said on the previous thread: Hire Steve Jobs to build it.

The main driver for building a fifth gate would be: revenue. It would need to bring in more guests or cause existing guests to extend/pay more for their current vacations. Personally, if they built a fifth gate, they wouldn't be getting a significant revenue boost from my family. We're very happy going every other year and we wouldn't extend the vacation past what we typically do, 7 days. Adding Animal Kingdom took it from a long weekend ( 3 days @ 1 park per day) to over half a week.

I believe the law of diminishing returns would come into effect, as a fifth gate would have less an impact than opening Animal Kingdom.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Word of the Weekend. Skeuomorph

A word worth discussing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorphic