Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
What about revitalizing downtown before we add more suburbia? The 5th gate needs to serve an audience that is not being served by the first four. Teens at night was one option.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
What about revitalizing downtown before we add more suburbia? The 5th gate needs to serve an audience that is not being served by the first four. Teens at night was one option.
ChrisFL
Premium Member
Well let's take a look at what has been done for themed attractions/lands so far. They fit into a few categories for the most part:
Movies/Books based themes (Little Mermaid, Harry Potter, Aladdin and many, many others)
Past or Future based themes (Main Street USA, Tomorrowland)
Exploration (Space Mountain, Mission:Space, The Living Seas, World Showcase even)
So with that, the basis for popular themed areas must include a general interest from the public, either to experience more personally their favorite stories and characters...OR to explore a time and place that's either difficult or impossible to do any other way.
There are many things that WDW has yet to create, but it is difficult to come up with an entirely new park without re-treading old territory. Disney themselves already cover the same themes in different parks. Finding Nemo is in Epcot and Animal Kingdom, for example.
KevinYee
Well-Known Member
Skeuomorphs (a new word for me) seem to me to be the very essence of rich design (or maybe "layered design" is a better term). The kind of design that is so good and effective, the viewer never actually picks up on the skeuomorph.
I've never marveled at the tiny handle of the maple syrup (well, not often and probably not out loud), but it does the job of "fooling" me into making the thing feel antique and authentic.
Disney parks have historically done a gigantically terrific job at skeuomorphing an environment to make it feel "immersive", where you feel transported away. In fact, the presence or absence of skeuomorphs is precisely what differentiates a Disney park and a wanna-be theme park that doesn't really "get" theming. A wanna-be park will add a few obvious themed elements but miss all the skeuomorphs.
When Disney does it right, the skeuomorphs are there (the new Jungle Cruise boats). But when Disney cuts them out, it feels cheap. We audience members may not always have skeuomorph on the tips of our tongues (I will, going forward!) but that's the operative term missing when Disney falls short. The DCA of 2001 was essentially a skeuomorph-free-zone (SFZ). THESE are the types of "little details" that we may not consciously note when they are present, but we definitely feel their absence. To quote Tony, they *are* the "Disney Difference."
I've never marveled at the tiny handle of the maple syrup (well, not often and probably not out loud), but it does the job of "fooling" me into making the thing feel antique and authentic.
Disney parks have historically done a gigantically terrific job at skeuomorphing an environment to make it feel "immersive", where you feel transported away. In fact, the presence or absence of skeuomorphs is precisely what differentiates a Disney park and a wanna-be theme park that doesn't really "get" theming. A wanna-be park will add a few obvious themed elements but miss all the skeuomorphs.
When Disney does it right, the skeuomorphs are there (the new Jungle Cruise boats). But when Disney cuts them out, it feels cheap. We audience members may not always have skeuomorph on the tips of our tongues (I will, going forward!) but that's the operative term missing when Disney falls short. The DCA of 2001 was essentially a skeuomorph-free-zone (SFZ). THESE are the types of "little details" that we may not consciously note when they are present, but we definitely feel their absence. To quote Tony, they *are* the "Disney Difference."
KichijojiBear
New Member
Sorry, I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this, but I don't know of a better place. Feel free to disregard any or all of this.
Would Disney ever work with outside sources to create their attractions?
The reason I ask, is because I would love to see Miyazaki of Ghibli fame tackle a ride design for the Japanese pavilion. Who better to make that ride than the Disney of Japan?
Is there someone to talk to express this desire properly, and would disney even consider if there was no Sponsor?
Well I am at it, any Imagineers perspective on how Epcot (it seems they do this more) or other parks, function with needing/getting sponsors and losing sponsors etc.?
I've been reading the thread for a long while and just want to say thanks, for expanding our minds, and sharing your insights.
Would Disney ever work with outside sources to create their attractions?
The reason I ask, is because I would love to see Miyazaki of Ghibli fame tackle a ride design for the Japanese pavilion. Who better to make that ride than the Disney of Japan?
Is there someone to talk to express this desire properly, and would disney even consider if there was no Sponsor?
Well I am at it, any Imagineers perspective on how Epcot (it seems they do this more) or other parks, function with needing/getting sponsors and losing sponsors etc.?
I've been reading the thread for a long while and just want to say thanks, for expanding our minds, and sharing your insights.
flavious27
Well-Known Member
This can also be a reply to what Eddie said about how attractions on franchises is risky, I like the concept of a 5th gate being based on literature, comic books, graphic novels, tall tales, and other traditional ways of telling a story; a theme park based on imagination, it will be a land of imagination. Right now, the only area in wdw that has a theme based on this is fantasyland. It doesn't really fit in with the other themes and concepts of the other gates.
I view this as a real way that guests can walk through the landscapes and environments that are described in books and envisioned in your mind. The team behind the lotr trilogy did a great job of trying to visualize what Tolkien put into our minds. I can see the 5th gate being a bit less linear in its approach to guests experiencing the park, I know that Eddie has said this is why he likes Knott's, guests aren't funneled throughout the park. I think that guests like this way of going off the beaten trail to discover something new. Disney would still make money on this concept but it would allow wdi and its designers to make a park that would flow to the story and not flow to the crowds.
I was thinking that the "main street" area would be based on london in the late 19th century and early 20th century, the london that is described to us in the Sherlock Holmes novels and other stories for this era. I use london because so much of our classical literature is from england or uses england.
The weenie or rather central hub of this gate would be the thomas jefferson building of the library of congress. The loc is our national library, you need a library if you are going to have a gate based on literature. I also see this weenie being fully functional, not as a library so much but as a bookstore and also the site of different types of attractions. I have national treasure in mind as one of the basis for an attraction. I can see this building being used as a venue to show different pieces of literature that is stored in the LOC and to educate kids. There can also be a theater inside that would play host to different theater companies.
Going into more of the lands, the first one would be based on marvel ip and be themed to nyc. This land would be part of the way that guests can explore and discover instead of following a path. The designers will have a great wealth of examples in how they can develop nyc for guests and show the story.
The second land would be lotr. Guests would be able to experience the shire and the the old forest in their own ways. As they progress through this land, they are progressing through the novels.
The next land would be based on american tall tales.
As I said, this gate will be a theme park but feel different to guests because at its heart it will be different. Guests will experience this park the same way that would when they read and are transported to another place. And really isn't that what a theme park should do anyway, transport guests to another place.
The problem with DQ now is that they haven't added anything, there is nothing new to entice people in that have already spent a rainy day there. DQ could be used as a venue for new technology and forms entertainment.
But I can hold up those little jugs of maple sauce with my pinky. I saw this firsthand when I got a new set of rims for my car, it had hex screws all around the hub but they were non-functional.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Your post captures exactly why I put the word up there in the first place. I thought that this difference is relevant to the discussion of what should be "next" in the industry and where the edge lies.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
flavious27
Well-Known Member
both bring in analog elements that could be replaced with digital elements? I liked the different skins with winamp 5 that duplicated the look and function of the elements of hifi stereos from the 60's and 70's.
KevinYee
Well-Known Member
You could argue that California Screamin *tries* to be skeuomorphic - it's new (steel) but looks old (wooden). My vote, though, is that it's not really new, and a steelie certainly isn't edgy.
Pooh's Hunny Pots (TDL) looks like a busbar dark ride, upon first glance... but it isn't.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Good ones. To me, Screamin' attempts to look like a wood coaster (not) but the smooth ride feel also betrays it. So the "skeu" is experiential as well as visual. Wood would have been the answer there and just be real.
A parade pole with speakers and lighting is utilitarian but victorian in style to make it feel warmer and analogous. Mad Tea Party "Cups" are skeu'd toward the movie.
So what is everyone's favorite or least favorite skeuomorphic elements?
If I understand the definition correctly, these are mine:
My favorite: All the elements of forced perspective on the Castles that make it seem larger than what it is. The Castles are the main focal point for the entire walk in and really set the mood.
My least favorite: As of right now, Beast's Castle in Fantasyland. I saw it right after it went up and it seemed out of place because it didn't fit in. As the Fantasyland expansion finished, I completely expect it to change.
If I understand the definition correctly, these are mine:
My favorite: All the elements of forced perspective on the Castles that make it seem larger than what it is. The Castles are the main focal point for the entire walk in and really set the mood.
My least favorite: As of right now, Beast's Castle in Fantasyland. I saw it right after it went up and it seemed out of place because it didn't fit in. As the Fantasyland expansion finished, I completely expect it to change.
EPCOTCenterLover
Well-Known Member
Eddie, your response made me think of this question: do you think The Walt Disney Company still has its edge regarding theme park design? If so, where do you see it?
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
To me, Skeuomorphics is adding a nostalgic design reference to something modern to make it seem more familiar and be accepted by the user.
jt04
Well-Known Member
Kevin, not trying to sidetrack the thread but I have been wondering about something. A few years ago, when gas prices were similarly inflated, you blogged that Disney was considering closing parks at WDW on a rotating basis due to a weakened economy and fewer visitors. I thought at the time the idea was extremely far-fetched. But now that high gas prices have returned with no relief apparent and the unemployment rate is also much higher and seemingly staying that way for the forseeable future, have you heard anything about Disney revisiting the idea of closing parks on certain days?
I apologize if you have written about this recently and I missed it.
Thanks for any information you or others can provide.
Thanks for the clarification.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Finally watched the videos and they were great, thanks for sharing. I think it is kind of interesting how in many ways the best places for creative and design work are places that have themselves not been all that designed, as they become highly pliable so as to changed to suit the current and changing needs of the work being done.
Since Apple has come up before, what do you think of Address Book and iCal in Mac OS X Lion? To me it seems to be a very odd choice. Apple has become infamous for its forward looking mantra, ruthlessly discarding what has been deemed outdated and yet amongst all that Lion discards (and optical media from the Mac Mini) we have two apps that have taken on the appearance of their old outdated physical manifestation. It is a clash to not only the aesthetic of Mac OS X Lion, but just so much of the Apple ethos.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I only have Lion running on my Air right now, so I'll check them out and get back to you. To me, the brushed metal look of iTunes and
Garage Band with the slider volume controls was very 70's Nakamichi. Look at how they are trying to mimic literal books with iBooks and the bookshelf.
Jeanine
Member
When speaking of skeuomorphs, would you include details such as the wind vane on top of the Haunted Mansion? Or Tahitian Terrace's Disneydendron semperflorens grandis?
I always thought they did a good job on the inside of the Pieces of Eight shop, where the sales counter is an organ that apparently had to be hand-distressed with chains. I also always think the rockwork at Disneyland is more detailed than the rockwork at Disney World, but maybe I tend to have less time to contemplate things like that in Florida.
One interesting thing I heard recently was that a large area in WDW's Fantasyland (the old skyway tower?) was going to be basically dedicated to stroller parking. Having recently read Heart of Our Cities, it occurred to me that after trying to eliminate all the centrally located real estate dedicated to automobiles that Victor Gruen blamed for urban sprawl, they might actually be starting to replicate the whole thing on a smaller scale, with the strollers and ECV parking...
I always thought they did a good job on the inside of the Pieces of Eight shop, where the sales counter is an organ that apparently had to be hand-distressed with chains. I also always think the rockwork at Disneyland is more detailed than the rockwork at Disney World, but maybe I tend to have less time to contemplate things like that in Florida.
One interesting thing I heard recently was that a large area in WDW's Fantasyland (the old skyway tower?) was going to be basically dedicated to stroller parking. Having recently read Heart of Our Cities, it occurred to me that after trying to eliminate all the centrally located real estate dedicated to automobiles that Victor Gruen blamed for urban sprawl, they might actually be starting to replicate the whole thing on a smaller scale, with the strollers and ECV parking...
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
The stroller thing is out of control. the y should create a folding stroller or something hat is less intrusive.