Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I should have known. There are lots of interesting gripes people mention there too. No shortage of material.
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
I should have known. There are lots of interesting gripes people mention there too. No shortage of material.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I agree with you. The high concept of the park is less abstract now and points in a "traditionally Disney" direction. The Orange would be an anomaly. It would come have to come down. Having said that, it could have been really beautiful.
jt04
Well-Known Member
Things that make you go hmmm.
It appears you may have inspired this as it pretty much screams "Eddie Sotto".
http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=17784
It appears you may have inspired this as it pretty much screams "Eddie Sotto".
http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=17784
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Web Hotel
It certainly does! Sounds like "Progress City", (that's what we named my old company back in 2000) it was called labeled a "convergence design" studio, meaning blurring the crossroads between physical places and virtual ones. Interesting hotel design, it was only a matter of time, I guess. It reads very theoretical, not exactly sure what you do there. Thanks for sharing. I wonder how restful it will be when you are busy building the hotel?
It certainly does! Sounds like "Progress City", (that's what we named my old company back in 2000) it was called labeled a "convergence design" studio, meaning blurring the crossroads between physical places and virtual ones. Interesting hotel design, it was only a matter of time, I guess. It reads very theoretical, not exactly sure what you do there. Thanks for sharing. I wonder how restful it will be when you are busy building the hotel?
Jeanine
Member
That's fabulous. It's amazing to think, in retrospect, of the guy who created that little wind-up bird that Walt brought back from Europe--did he have any idea of what his invention sparked?
Jeanine
Member
It's funny--I went to a talk by Jack Lindquist the other night, and he told a few stories about the Yippies. The climax was when he said one protester took off down Main St., and ________ Nunis chased him down to the Flower Mart. As the rest of them caught up, Lindquist saw Nunis standing over the Yippie with a handful of hair, and could only think "he scalped him!"
I also thought it was interesting that he mentioned thinking that Main St. should have constantly evolved forward in time, because he felt the charm of it was that the older members of the family should have direct memories of it...that it should constantly lag around 50 years behind the present day.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Great story about Nunis. So if we go 50 years back that puts us in the Sixties.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I'm sure he'd be impressed. Seems pretty elegant and the fact that you can fly in in a specific direction is pretty remarkable too. Glad you liked that clip.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Branson for CEO
Bob Iger should consider recruiting Richard Branson to become the next CEO of Disney. At least he has the first Commercial Spaceport! Richard puts his vision where his mouth is and dreams big. He is the MAN!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...on-U-S-officials-dedicate-space-terminal.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.a7531fdac8c142d68b402738294123a2.2a1&show_article=1
Bob Iger should consider recruiting Richard Branson to become the next CEO of Disney. At least he has the first Commercial Spaceport! Richard puts his vision where his mouth is and dreams big. He is the MAN!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...on-U-S-officials-dedicate-space-terminal.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.a7531fdac8c142d68b402738294123a2.2a1&show_article=1
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Occupy ODV?
Kevin has written another great article today about the dining plan and it's effect on the park experience.
http://miceage.micechat.com/kevinyee/ky101811a.htm
I have always felt that food is an "attraction" in the mix and the subtle business changes to dining are now having an adverse effect on the show. I don't know what the guest numbers are on the popularity and rating of the DDP, but the feel of it all has changed.
I'd only add that exposing the dining plan on cart menus only makes those who didn't buy the plan feel more ripped off. Especially when the Turkey Leg is 10 bucks. Of course, all the "DDP entitlement" nomenclature erodes the period theme when you have to put all of that on a separate menu. The word "entitlement" is not even appetizing and means the rest are not "entitled" to a discount! What happened to the idea of fun? They could do a small DDP logo next to the item on the normal menu like they do when something is spicy and you would know what you can or cannot get. Don't you hate to buy something online and seeing the 20% off "promo code" window without access to the code? I just don't want to be reminded of wasting money all the time when I'm trying to have fun. Agree on the upkeep issue, so "county fair". It just seems that with all the fast pass planning and DDP organizing that you can't just have what they call a vacation, because you are arranging and slaving to a series of pre paid obstacles just to get through it all.
The whole thing has become very urban. Either you enter and "live in the prepaid machine" or suffer the consequences of being an "out of towner". I'd tell the kids to go into the park and I'd sit by the adult pool. Text me when you're broke. It's all too much. I would not do that, but that's how this makes me feel. I'd rather not go to a theme resort when it gets to this point of forced experience. I went to Hawaii this year with the family and it was awesome. (Not to the Aulani) Unstructured and adventurous. The Island was the theme park and the lava was real.
Kevin's point of needing to sit and enjoy a meal together is a big deal, especially to parents with small kids. They need a break and cannot walk forever. As a parent, I look forward to that break and you may need that time to plan the rest of your day. I happen to like the cafe feel of the Riverfront restaurants at DL and it's cool thing to sit at the Crystal Palace, etc. Of course, Walt created those elegant environments so "any man who could afford a hamburger would be able to eat at a fancy place". Not if you can't afford the burger! Carts as a meal replacement may be their only option to the overcrowding, but overall it turns the lands into a county fair of food booths. When you add the merchandise booths it just gets more cluttered. The other thing is that the booths or carts eventually turn into "facilities" (4 wagon wheels glued to a big air-conditioned trailer with a tiny "Chuckwagon" sign) and grow bigger and uglier. Kevin's point about Aunt Polly's is good as it is well integrated into the experience and is not an after thought. Good article Kevin. Thought provoking and worth discussing. Design challenges for every Imagineer.
Kevin has written another great article today about the dining plan and it's effect on the park experience.
http://miceage.micechat.com/kevinyee/ky101811a.htm
I have always felt that food is an "attraction" in the mix and the subtle business changes to dining are now having an adverse effect on the show. I don't know what the guest numbers are on the popularity and rating of the DDP, but the feel of it all has changed.
I'd only add that exposing the dining plan on cart menus only makes those who didn't buy the plan feel more ripped off. Especially when the Turkey Leg is 10 bucks. Of course, all the "DDP entitlement" nomenclature erodes the period theme when you have to put all of that on a separate menu. The word "entitlement" is not even appetizing and means the rest are not "entitled" to a discount! What happened to the idea of fun? They could do a small DDP logo next to the item on the normal menu like they do when something is spicy and you would know what you can or cannot get. Don't you hate to buy something online and seeing the 20% off "promo code" window without access to the code? I just don't want to be reminded of wasting money all the time when I'm trying to have fun. Agree on the upkeep issue, so "county fair". It just seems that with all the fast pass planning and DDP organizing that you can't just have what they call a vacation, because you are arranging and slaving to a series of pre paid obstacles just to get through it all.
The whole thing has become very urban. Either you enter and "live in the prepaid machine" or suffer the consequences of being an "out of towner". I'd tell the kids to go into the park and I'd sit by the adult pool. Text me when you're broke. It's all too much. I would not do that, but that's how this makes me feel. I'd rather not go to a theme resort when it gets to this point of forced experience. I went to Hawaii this year with the family and it was awesome. (Not to the Aulani) Unstructured and adventurous. The Island was the theme park and the lava was real.
Kevin's point of needing to sit and enjoy a meal together is a big deal, especially to parents with small kids. They need a break and cannot walk forever. As a parent, I look forward to that break and you may need that time to plan the rest of your day. I happen to like the cafe feel of the Riverfront restaurants at DL and it's cool thing to sit at the Crystal Palace, etc. Of course, Walt created those elegant environments so "any man who could afford a hamburger would be able to eat at a fancy place". Not if you can't afford the burger! Carts as a meal replacement may be their only option to the overcrowding, but overall it turns the lands into a county fair of food booths. When you add the merchandise booths it just gets more cluttered. The other thing is that the booths or carts eventually turn into "facilities" (4 wagon wheels glued to a big air-conditioned trailer with a tiny "Chuckwagon" sign) and grow bigger and uglier. Kevin's point about Aunt Polly's is good as it is well integrated into the experience and is not an after thought. Good article Kevin. Thought provoking and worth discussing. Design challenges for every Imagineer.
StageFrenzy
Well-Known Member
Think of the conversations and smells that could come from the second story windows, it could make the Disney parks a lot more laid back. Added benefit food sales would double and everyone would want the special mickey brownies....
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
The DDP continues to hurt the dining experience at WDW.
I agree that this is the kind of slippery slope we do not want to be headed down. Already restaurant prices have been ratcheted up to give the illusion of a good value to those on the DDP, and now it is being passed off to the food carts. Aside from that, the idea that carts are taking over for sit down style eateries is very unappealing. A cart is fine to grab an Ice Cream bar, churro or a drink. But taking our meals at WDW from a cart, then finding a place outdoors in FL heat to have to eat them, horrible.
Aunt Polly's makes me sad every time I go to the MK. I can not think of a nicer location in that park to sit and grab lunch. And yet, it stays boarded up and covered by vending machines. The fact that it sits empty, but has not been properly shuttered just looks cheap and sad. It is very very bad show, and IMO a missed opportunity to have some of that ambiance we all love about Disney Parks.
janoimagine
Well-Known Member
I agree 100%, and on my honeymoon trip earlier this month (starting with the Disney Dream, then ending in the parks .... oh how I should have done it in reverse but thats for another time) I found myself trying to get in front of every research person I could because I firmly believe that Guest Relations could care less about individual opinions that do not conform to the new "Disney' model of pre-planning everything, and it was the only way I could let someone (with any type of pull) know they need to rethink the whole DDP and meal experience.
I don't want to have to plan where I eat 180 days in advance of my vacation, I want to show up at a park, hit the shows and attractions I want, and eat where I want, when I want ... this new type of OCD that Disney is encouraging with all its pre-planning every detail borders on insanity.
Vacations should have a level of the unknown and a great deal of spontaneity, but not according to Disney World.
I didnt see this issue in Anaheim when I visited earlier this year. It seems to be an issue primarily rooted in Orlando. I wish the efficiency experts would stay out of peoples vacations, and stick to something they are good at.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Certain types of people find comfort in planning the future, others prefer serendipity. I guess the issue is that you are penalizing those who prefer to relax and not plan by allowing the resources to be dominated by those who do.
I'm reminded of the chairs by the pool issue at many hotels. People have to get up at 7 to get a chair tagged by the pool so they can relax later in the day. Those who show after breakfast are left without a chair. Reservations are a fact of life and I guess Disney is so popular nearly everything needs to be reserved. the only thing left is for you to live through the reservations to see how well you chose.
John Lennon said it best "life is what happens to you while you're busy making plans".
janoimagine
Well-Known Member
Certainly ... I find its usually the creatives who prefer to take the day as it comes, and just flow with it, and the business types who try and plan for every contingency. To me its just that much more of an indication of who is truly calling the shots within the organization.
I am an Art Director turned Producer by trade, so in my new role I have to plan for every contingency in order to anticipate a clients needs, but even I recognize that you can overplan and remove all the happy accidents that occurr from the unknown.
Their has to be a compromise that will allow for flexibility, between those who want to plan everything and those who prefer a little looser vacation.
njDizFan
Well-Known Member
Eddie, I hate to disrupt where this thread is going, I could lament about the evils of the DDP for hours and I think Kevin's article is quite concise and shows real journalistic integrity. BUT a recent post on a different thread(Staggs, Cameron and Rohde at DAK), brought up an interesting question that I think you would have some great insight.
A poster on that thread brought Rohde's "greatness" into question. To paraphrase basically he said that Rohde was great at playing the politics but was just an average imagineer and relied heavily on his staff to create what he took credit for. Now I realize you would probably not want to say anything negative about Joe but the question is; as a Senior Imagineer on a project, how much of your vision is given to the hands of your staff? Is it your baby, and you see every aspect from inception to completion, or do you give general guidelines and parameters and let them run with it?
A poster on that thread brought Rohde's "greatness" into question. To paraphrase basically he said that Rohde was great at playing the politics but was just an average imagineer and relied heavily on his staff to create what he took credit for. Now I realize you would probably not want to say anything negative about Joe but the question is; as a Senior Imagineer on a project, how much of your vision is given to the hands of your staff? Is it your baby, and you see every aspect from inception to completion, or do you give general guidelines and parameters and let them run with it?
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
True enough. Here's one to think about. I wonder what "window shopping" would be if you had to reserve entry to the stores in a mall? Malls are all about 100% serendipity except for advertised sales. I say that dining is much like shopping in that there are impulses like " what are you hungry for now?" or "look at that new shirt?". I know that lifestyle malls (the Grove in LA) concentrate solely on "placemaking" to gather people for the purpose of strolling, only to have the merchants lure them in with cool windows. Many have no idea what they will eat or buy, just that they like being there and to a degree, not knowing. Do they spend? YES, more than what they would have if they planned everything. I say theme parks are a bit different, but not much. Of course, the organized shopper knows the items they want in advance and just targets those and leaves. for that person a lifestyle mall is not as appealing, they go to a big box or order online.
DougK
Well-Known Member
This whole DDP thing just makes me mad. We starting going to WDW regularly in 2004 and at that point we could still decide which table service restaurant we wanted to eat at on the very day we ate there!
"Where do you want to eat tonight? Alfredo's it is!" And don't get me started on that horrible replacement for Alredo's, Tutto Italia. Yucch!
Back then there was no need for 180 day planning, with the exception of Cinderella's Royal Table and maybe a few others.
And on top of that the food used to be really good at most Disney restaurants, I can't say that is true anymore. The menus are all homogenized, the prices have risen insanely (not just risen, I understand prices go up) and you need to reserve a seat 6 months in advance.
Every aspect of Disney dining has gotten worse, except the profit I suppose. But from a customer's point of view? Forget it. We now rent a car when we are there so we can do most of our eating offsite. Yes it takes away from park time but I really don't mind because to us meal time is a highlight every day.
Kevin has written an excellent article and Eddie your follow-up points are dead on. But I doubt Disney is listening.
"Where do you want to eat tonight? Alfredo's it is!" And don't get me started on that horrible replacement for Alredo's, Tutto Italia. Yucch!
Back then there was no need for 180 day planning, with the exception of Cinderella's Royal Table and maybe a few others.
And on top of that the food used to be really good at most Disney restaurants, I can't say that is true anymore. The menus are all homogenized, the prices have risen insanely (not just risen, I understand prices go up) and you need to reserve a seat 6 months in advance.
Every aspect of Disney dining has gotten worse, except the profit I suppose. But from a customer's point of view? Forget it. We now rent a car when we are there so we can do most of our eating offsite. Yes it takes away from park time but I really don't mind because to us meal time is a highlight every day.
Kevin has written an excellent article and Eddie your follow-up points are dead on. But I doubt Disney is listening.