Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Speaking of cool architecture...

Fallingwater Lego Building Kit

Lego Building Kits for Architecture and Landmarks


Why can't we have classic Disney park buildings/structures in Lego kits? Seems like a no brainer.

 

[Figments Friend]

I spoke to a friend who made it to Tony Baxter's tribute party at Club 33. It was truly historic and wonderful. He gave me a "play by play" and said it was both funny and touching. Most of the guests were those who Tony worked with and enjoyed and of course tributes and war stories were swapped, along with some rewritten songs tuned to his career, performed in his honor. Well deserved. I'm sorry to have missed it, but all went well.

Tony, like many Imagineers give their lives (and the passion that goes with it) to their careers and so it is vitally important that they are appreciated, as they have dedicated themselves to the preservation and the evolution of the Disney product. We all enjoy that in their collaborative efforts. Club 33 is the highest honor I can think of and so it was great to have done something of that caliber.

Here's something simple he taught me about design. People remember "things" or iconic objects more than architecture. So you always want to do the "Pirate Ship", the "Rocket" or the "Mountain" and not the building. Simply obvious, but in a big way ignored by architects. Frank Geary now makes his buildings into "things" by making them sculptures, just as Gaudi did in Barcelona. The Eiffel Tower is one of those "things", it iconically separates itself in your mind from the city, you will fly to see it, and it's still there! A simple truth.

I hope they continue to use Tony in ways that are good for both parties in the future and if nothing else, his instincts and knowledge is what needs to be passed on. John Hench did that when I was there. I truly appreciate everything Tony did for me. I was turned down twice by WED and he hires me right into a senior position! Tony learned alot from Claude Coats and many of the 1G Imagineers, and like all of us, we add our own experiences to season what we glean. There are still those at WDI that grew up in Tony's cadre, like Tom Morris, who knows so much about dark ride design it would stun you. Tony's protege Michel is really talented too.

Thank you Eddie for this post...
I do hope Tony knows how much he IS appreciated by the many thousands of people who have most certainly been touched in some way by his years of work.
He has been....and still IS very much a great inspiration for many of us 'out here'....

Here's some love for Tony from me, 'Figments Friend' !
I drew this back a while ago when he first announced his retirement..feel free to share!



I fully agree that it is important that his knowledge be passed on to others.
His scope of understanding and observation is of great value to those willing to listen.

 

[HMF]

He kind of had my interest when his story had a ship named
black pearl.

That's the really suspicious part. If they were really trying to base it off the ride where the ship has been called the "Wicked Wench" for over 30 years and was called "Wicked Wench" in all the early screenplays until Elliot & Rossio show up and suddenly the ship is re-named "Black Pearl"? Then WDI almost changes the ship on the ride to be the Black Pearl then they (Thankfully) retract that concept and keep it as the Wicked Wench and then claim that the Wicked Wench was somehow sunk, raised, painted black and re-dubbed "Black Pearl" and belonged to Jack Sparrow which still does not explain why it is being commanded by Barbossa and prior to that a Blackbeard look-alike with Paul Frees' voice, if that is supposed to be in the period when Jack was Captain of the ship and Barbossa his first mate. It really does make you suspicious and I feel it makes Royce's claims all that more credible.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I drive past another of Graves' buildings rather frequently and it's the same type of materials. I think these types of material choices are part of the way Postmodernism, in its exaggeration and sarcasm, fell apart and opened the door to Deconstruction.

I get the plywood and other cheap materials in certain applications as they have their own beauty and patina. In a resort setting or at least a Graves design which is very graphic and iconic, there is nothing worse than a cheesy icon. "Flipper's Tomb" was Swalphin's first nickname around WDI.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That's the really suspicious part. If they were really trying to base it off the ride where the ship has been called the "Wicked Wench" for over 30 years and was called "Wicked Wench" in all the early screenplays until Elliot & Rossio show up and suddenly the ship is re-named "Black Pearl"? Then WDI almost changes the ship on the ride to be the Black Pearl then they (Thankfully) retract that concept and keep it as the Wicked Wench and then claim that the Wicked Wench was somehow sunk, raised, painted black and re-dubbed "Black Pearl" and belonged to Jack Sparrow which still does not explain why it is being commanded by Barbossa and prior to that a Blackbeard look-alike with Paul Frees' voice, if that is supposed to be in the period when Jack was Captain of the ship and Barbossa his first mate. It really does make you suspicious and I feel it makes Royce's claims all that more credible.

Hmm. Good point. Do we know it was WW in the early screenplays?

 

[HMF]

Hmm. Good point. Do we know it was WW in the early screenplays?

Here is what it says on Royce's website.
2002 - For Disney’s Pirates of the Caribbean film, in Stuart Beattie script, features a pirate ship named the “Wicked Wench” which is featured attacking the town.

2003 - After Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio are hired for Disney’s Pirates of the Caribbean film, and because Ted Elliot and Terry Rossio (in their own words) want “to base it on Disney’s Pirates of the Caribbean ride attraction”, and (also in their own words)“because the ride attraction provides a narrative” and (also in their own words) because they “wanted to recreate/evoke some specific moments from the (Pirates of the Caribbean) ride -- the pirate attack on the town being the most obvious” - , the fact is that the pirate ship in Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio’s script / the movie, which is featured attacking the town is named the “Black Pearl”.

2004 - In a desperate attempt to identify it to the Pirates of the Caribbean movie, Disney was preparing to drastically change their Pirates of the Caribbean ride attraction. In particular, Disney was going change their “Wicked Wench” pirate ship, which is featured attacking the town, to the “Black Pearl” pirate ship and place Barbossa, the evil pirate captain on it.

2004 - Royce Mathew notifies the Walt Disney Company, Jerry Bruckheimer, Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio of his serious claims.

2006 - After Royce Mathew’s claims, Disney abruptly stopped most of their drastic ride changes. Disney still placed Barbossa the evil pirate captain on the Wicked Wench pirate ship, while abruptly proclaiming that the Wicked Wench pirate ship belonged to Jack Sparrow and that the ship was later set on fire, sunk, raised and renamed to the “Black Pearl”.

 

[Wikkler]

Pirates, like the MK HM, is beginning to feel like what a pizza tastes like if you let four eight year olds pick as many toppings as they want.

Disney management at its finest.

Sorry for this monstrosity.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thank you for that. "We only have high class stuff on this thread".

 

[Omnispace]

I get the plywood and other cheap materials in certain applications as they have their own beauty and patina. In a resort setting or at least a Graves design which is very graphic and iconic, there is nothing worse than a cheesy icon. "Flipper's Tomb" was Swalphin's first nickname around WDI.

Michael Graves was known for his "cheap" detailing from the moment the Portland Building was finished and the plastic laminate started to chip away at the edges. Because of Graves, 1980's Post Modernism pretty much became known for all the marble-pattern plastic laminate covering columns, chair moldings, counter tops and other thinly-applied classic-inspired ornamentation -- you name it -- p-lam was everywhere.

Of all the "Starchitects", Graves seems to be the one who has taken the "build a monument" approach to heart and his buildings have evolved to become bloated and grotesque parodies of classicism. Perhaps Eisner employed him so much because his architecture embodied a "cartoonishness" that he felt fit with Disney's casual character.

While also being labeled a Postmodern Architect, I think that Robert Stern has been much more successful in his interpretations of traditional architecture. His Yacht Club and Beach Club resorts at WDW are much nicer and much more humane places. Perhaps one does not have to continually strive to be the "mountain builder" after all.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Michael Graves was known for his "cheap" detailing from the moment the Portland Building was finished and the plastic laminate started to chip away at the edges. Because of Graves, 1980's Post Modernism pretty much became known for all the marble-pattern plastic laminate covering columns, chair moldings, counter tops and other thinly-applied classic-inspired ornamentation -- you name it -- p-lam was everywhere.

Of all the "Starchitects", Graves seems to be the one who has taken the "build a monument" approach to heart and his buildings have evolved to become bloated and grotesque parodies of classicism. Perhaps Eisner employed him so much because his architecture embodied a "cartoonishness" that he felt fit with Disney's casual character.

While also being labeled a Postmodern Architect, I think that Robert Stern has been much more successful in his interpretations of traditional architecture. His Yacht Club and Beach Club resorts at WDW are much nicer and much more humane places. Perhaps one does not have to continually strive to be the "mountain builder" after all.

Stern takes the least risks as he apes the traditional details pretty literally. The Boardwalk is pretty successful in my view, but at some point it literally becomes "themed architecture" and might just as well been done by WDI. Graves is so identified with the 80's, that his work looks pretty dated although in time may be classic. When something is grotesque or has character, architects call it "playful" to save face. They have such distain for theme design, they rename the same process when they practice it to make it sound intellectual, like "scripted spaces" or something like that. Yeah right.

 

[Omnispace]

I drive past another of Graves' buildings rather frequently and it's the same type of materials. I think these types of material choices are part of the way Postmodernism, in its exaggeration and sarcasm, fell apart and opened the door to Deconstruction.

Ha ha! But don't think that Deconstructivist buildings are built any better -- it's just more difficult to tell how much they are falling apart since they are pretty much poorly detailed from the start. As is quite often the case, the more that architecture focuses on purely the look of the design, the more it ignores how something is actually built, and the more that something is going to look cheap or unresolved. They are harnessing specialized software on supercomputers to turn Frank Gehry's torn pieces of paper into reality and yet Joern Utzon was able to create a masterpiece on the Sydney Harbour by using a thorough and rational approach to design. You can torture and twist design only so far before it becomes an incomprehensible mess.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Ha ha! But don't think that Deconstructivist buildings are built any better -- it's just more difficult to tell how much they are falling apart since they are pretty much poorly detailed from the start. As is quite often the case, the more that architecture focuses on purely the look of the design, the more it ignores how something is actually built, and the more that something is going to look cheap or unresolved. They are harnessing specialized software on supercomputers to turn Frank Gehry's torn pieces of paper into reality and yet Joern Utzon was able to create a masterpiece on the Sydney Harbour by using a thorough and rational approach to design. You can torture and twist design only so far before it becomes an incomprehensible mess.

I was speaking more to the treatment of symbolism within Postmodernism. The skewing and exaggeration of symbols in form undermined the supposed endurance of these forms that Postmodernism originally sought to reestablish. Deconstruction was a natural progression from that treatment of symbolic form as something elastic.

Structural issues are really nothing new. The Fellowship has a wonderful account of how Fallingwater was very close to just being a pile of rubble instead of the structural headache that it is today because of Frank Lloyd Wright's arrogance.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

"Art without industry is stupidity, but Industry without art is brutality".
Don't recall where I heard that, but it reminds me of how valuable the balance between form and function is. In Entertainment design where the "function" is primarily to stir emotion, the balance is skewed from it just being merely practical, in fact, being too practical can a threat to the emotional result. A great amount of functional design is required yet "invisible" or secondary to allow for the experience to happen without distraction.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Structural issues are really nothing new. The Fellowship has a wonderful account of how Fallingwater was very close to just being a pile of rubble instead of the structural headache that it is today because of Frank Lloyd Wright's arrogance.

FWL's buildings always had structural issues. That's why you should never own them. Just admire them.

But technology has the ability to get past these problems. We can now build structures like Fallingwater with greater stability and energy efficiency for far less cost. So why aren't we doing it?

We've become slaves to cheap materials and cheap construction labor. Why does that necessarily require cheap design beforehand? I'm not so convinced that it does.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

When something is grotesque or has character, architects call it "playful" to save face.

LOL!

 

[lazyboy97o]

"Art without industry is stupidity, but Industry without art is brutality".
Don't recall where I heard that, but it reminds me of how valuable the balance between form and function is. In Entertainment design where the "function" is primarily to stir emotion, the balance is skewed from it just being merely practical, in fact, being too practical can a threat to the emotional result. A great amount of functional design is required yet "invisible" or secondary to allow for the experience to happen without distraction.

If you read Louis Sullivan's Autobiography of an Idea, the idea being that "form ever follows function," it is quite clear that he considered emotion to be a major part of the architectural experience.

 

[BalooChicago]

"Art without industry is stupidity, but Industry without art is brutality".
Don't recall where I heard that, but it reminds me of how valuable the balance between form and function is.

As a Project Architect (there are three traditional roles in Architecture, Project Manager, Project Designer, and Project Architect (PA), the PA is responsible for the technical requirements of the building, that it meets code, doesn't leak, etc, depending on the firm and individual an Architect may do one, or multiple of those roles), my favorite quote is "ars sine scientia nihil est". Art without science is nothing.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

"Art without industry is stupidity, but Industry without art is brutality".

I think I know the quote you're referring to, Eddie. The second part is correct, but not the first:

"Whom will you be governing by your thoughts, two thousand years hence? Think of it, and you will find that so far from art being immoral, little else except art is moral; that life without industry is guilt, and industry without art is brutality; and for the words "good" and "wicked," used of men, you may almost substitute the words "Makers" and Destroyers." -- Lectures on Art by John Ruskin

 

[Wikkler]

Disney management at its finest.

Sorry for this monstrosity.

And thus Disney keeps adding more and more toppings and eventually adding toppings reduces the quality of the product. It is overflowing with toppings and nobody eats the pizza.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

"Flipper's Tomb" was Swalphin's first nickname around WDI.

Was one given to Hotel New York?