Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[The Empress Lilly]

Michael Eisner's thinking was that if you were going to build hotels at WDW, why not first take a shot at having any one of them be a classic if they are done by leading architects. He did not like the bland hotels at Lake buena Vista and so why not take the same budget and roll the dice?

The end result may 'have received mixed reviews'. But I will always admire Eisner for trying.

Also, I have a personal feeling that in some decades time the Swalphin may be reappraised as great examples of postmodern architecture. So much architecture of the 30s, 50s, 60s was derided by contemporaries, but are now admired simply because their very outlandishness makes them prime examples orf bygone eras and styles. If something has character, it will usually come to be loved by later generations. If only it has the right combination between originality to set itself apart, with yet enough conformity to serve as an example of a style.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I have to say that I find the whole notion of a hotel built into a theme park to be especially exciting. Maybe Eddie's DLP main street hotel was one of the first examples? I would think that one of the big draws for such a project would be that guests could get the feeling of "living" in the theme park.

I walked DLP MS just last weekend. I was actually thinking about the pink monster. The hotel is dreadful. It is build much too close to the park. (I believe that decision was made by management, against the wishes of mr. Sotto and/or other designers)

The hotel does not make the hotel guests feel like they are part of MS. On the contrary, it is an exclusive experience, not an inclusive one. It serves to make the MS guest feel excluded from the hotel. Made to feel like rubes, the ants on MS being looked down upon by the twenty multi-millionairs or so sitting in one of the half dozen rooms with a view down MS.


Also, by default the hotel style clashes with MS. It should've been build fifty or hundred meters away from the park.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I walked DLP MS just last weekend. The hotel is dreadful. It is build much too close to the park. (I believe that decision was made by management, against the wishes of mr. Sotto and/or other designers)

The hotel does not make the hotel guests feel like they are part of MS. On the contrary, it is an exclusive experience, not an inclusive one. It serves to make the MS guest feel excluded from the hotel. Made to feel like rubes, the ants on MS being looked down upon by the twenty multi-millionairs or so sitting in one of the half dozen rooms with a view down MS.


Also, by default the hotel style clashes with MS. It should've been build fifty or hundred meters away from the park.

I believe Eddie said that the weather in Paris necessitated that *something* be built over ticketing for DLP. So why not a hotel? I have to say that I was impressed with DLP's main street hotel. The outside is beautiful, and I forgot about it when I entered the park as guests usually don't look back at the train station.

It's such a relaxing way to enter a castle park, under a beautiful hotel with landscaping.

I get the sight line issue for sure though. If placement wasn't an issue, they could have built an Opera House hotel that used forced perspective to make the building seem smaller (rather than larger) than it was.

DLP's hotel is sort of like Disneyland's Matterhorn, you can see them both from Main Street, and if you think too hard about it then they don't make sense. But since they are beautiful nobody cares.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I believe Eddie said that the weather in Paris necessitated that *something* be built over ticketing for DLP. So why not a hotel? I have to say that I was impressed with DLP's main street hotel. The outside is beautiful, and I forgot about it when I entered the park as guests usually don't look back at the train station.

The hotel itself is lovely. A sugary Grand Floridian. In fact, the sugary Disney Princessy style works better in a fantasy environment than in an hotel which tries to pass for a luxury early 20th century grand hotel.
I especially enjoy walking the surroundings, the gardens.

It certainly beats the rubbish entrance to WDSP. Although that park has a covered 'MS', and uncovered ticket booths / entrance.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Quite a discussion. This is the brief story of the MK Hotel as I recall it.

There were requirements to shelter the guests during inclement weather which resulted in 10 foot wide walkways subtly snaking throughout the park penetrating Main Street and extending to where you buy tickets. This is how the arcades were created, as management wanted to roof over the street as in TDL. Tony answered them with the Arcade solution and it saved money over the Tokyo roof, so that approach was in. Out front, we figured out how much queuing there would have to be around the booths and designed a roof to cover them. As you might imagine, roofing over giant crowds (the parks projected attendance was 11 to eventually 14 million annually) was measured in acres. The styling for this "roof" was much first proposed to echo a glass pavilion like the Crystal Palace, another the Turreted Grand Floridian hotel, which in turn is derived from the Seaside Resort, Hotel Del Coronado. Just a roof mind you. Here's a quick sketch I did for the entrance a la Crystal Palace Exhibition.

Does not look cheap. Nothing did.

The cost just to weather protect the guests was exorbitant. Here you see Tony with the developed hotel. Note that Nina's rendering depicts a more modest building in relation to the people. The tower part was up front and away from the park, the roof would have extended further back. The model shows the tower atop a mass of rooms like a cherry on a sundae. Losing a floor and the wings would have made a big difference but would not have had enough rooms for them to justify doing it. A glass crystal palace design is still represented as a smaller entry structure.

To justify the cost, which was not going down well, I suggested making the upper areas into a small boutique hotel ("why not make it into a hotel?") with a small amount of rooms instead of cash control admin offices. Tony credits Eisner with that suggestion which you many have read over the years. Others credit Baxter. Tony was responsible for pushing the idea through and fighting for it. He was the champion. If he had not fought to the death, it would not have happened. In any case, it is loved or hated, so perhaps it's more a matter of blame! I'll take my share. We explored several ways to integrate a hotel. Town Square even had rooms above the buildings in one version.

The idea, no matter who suggested it, was a huge hit. As the accounting department looked at justifying the hotel, the room count soared and it grew. What resulted was the same footprint of the original roof, but many floors above it, much to my own regret. The scale of the hotel had now loomed over the Main Street. It was now my job to work with the architect (as it was in their court now) to make it appear to work with the rest of the street. Dana Aiken was the architect in charge and we worked well at finding ways to deal with scale given the realities. The best you could hope for was breaking up the windows with smaller muntins to create multiple panes. This might make them seem in scale in a photo. Another challenge was the MS Train station. How to make the RR Station low enough so guests could see in, but still make it iconic enough to be a good entrance to the park. Many challenges to the design. Some I think we won, others not so. As was pointed out, it looms and dominates on one hand and is pretty as a distant backdrop on the other. There a visual intrusions, but also advantages to it's great sense of welcome when you see that Mickey Clock in the gardens. I'd argue that it makes a great first impression for those arriving on the property, but alters the feeling of Main Street in other ways that we were not able to remedy. To hide it's side "wings" or rooms and keep it 3 stories, we even proposed putting parts of it behind Discoveryland and having the train go through the pool area as you see here.

Marty wrote us both a nice memo of congratulation when it became real and Eisner scrawled on top of it that "we should never give up on an idea.. no matter how many times they stab you in the heart.. keep getting up".

Here's Jim Michaelson's great sketch of the exterior.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

There a visual intrusions, but also advantages to it's great sense of welcome when you see that Mickey Clock in the gardens. I'd argue that it makes a great first impression for those arriving on the property, but alters the feeling of Main Street in other ways that we were not able to remedy.

Thank for all the background! It is fascinating to read a first account of the design process of this hotel.

I really got the "welcoming" vibe when I saw the hotel for the first time. I think that the Mickey Clock and, of course, the Mickey flower bed are integral to special feeling that beyond just a beautiful hotel, you are on the property and there is something magical happening here.

There is a definite majestic/iconic feel to the hotel in front. I wonder if the grand design of the castle was done in part to make Fantasyland's icon more eye popping than the hotel, (though I also heard the French can be hard to impress when it comes to castles). Certainly if DLP's hotel was put in front of Disneyland, it would make the Anaheim castle look like a guest house.

 

[choco choco]

Another challenge was the MS Train station. How to make the RR Station low enough so guests could see in, but still make it iconic enough to be a good entrance to the park. Many challenges to the design... we even proposed putting parts of it behind Discoveryland and having the train go through the pool area as you see here.

Interesting about the railroad design challenges. One thing I've always wondered, can the railroad handle gradient and elevation changes? The traditional way of crossing is always going underneath it, I think because it's easier, but I wonder if there has ever been a design that considered the train itself going down and underneath something and then coming back up. And this is the way to get people or things (like parade floats), across the train tracks without disturbing its operation.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Interesting about the railroad design challenges. One thing I've always wondered, can the railroad handle gradient and elevation changes? The traditional way of crossing is always going underneath it, I think because it's easier, but I wonder if there has ever been a design that considered the train itself going down and underneath something and then coming back up. And this is the way to get people or things (like parade floats), across the train tracks without disturbing its operation.

The Walt Disney World Railroad changes elevation because there is not really a berm for it to sit atop. The Fantasyland Station is just about the last place the trains can stop before hiking back up to Main Street. In the 1980s there was a good bit of doubt regarding whether or not the trains would be able to consistently make the climb after stopping as it had always been done using momentum to assist.

 

[RandySavage]

What resulted was the same footprint of the original roof, but many floors above it, much to my own regret. The scale of the hotel had now loomed over the Main Street. It was now my job to work with the architect (as it was in their court now) to make it appear to work with the rest of the street. Dana Aiken was the architect in charge and we worked well at finding ways to deal with scale given the realities. The best you could hope for was breaking up the windows with smaller muntins to create multiple panes. This might make them seem in scale in a photo. Another challenge was the MS Train station. How to make the RR Station low enough so guests could see in, but still make it iconic enough to be a good entrance to the park. Many challenges to the design. Some I think we won, others not so. As was pointed out, it looms and dominates on one hand and is pretty as a distant backdrop on the other

.

Thanks for a such a cool, detailed history on the hotel.

I fall into the "big fan of the DLP hotel" camp. It's dominance of the area doesn't bother me at all because the details and design meld so well with the rest of MS:USA. It also sets Paris' version further apart from the U.S. parks (a large 'castle' at both ends of the street):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2791/5748192865_91c04e3afb_b.jpg

Hotel New York, on the other hand... I would have loved to seen an 'imagineered' version of a Gilded Age or Jazz Age Manhattan (Hotels Astor, Waldorf, Plaza, Barbizon, etc.) over Graves' 1980s post-modernistic take.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I never get tired of seeing it! After three visits in three different seasons, the gardens and hotel are a very splashy, sophisticated part of the entrance. The covered turnstiles create a "WOW!" effect once you pass beyond them and see the train station. Love it all!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The Walt Disney World Railroad changes elevation because there is not really a berm for it to sit atop. The Fantasyland Station is just about the last place the trains can stop before hiking back up to Main Street. In the 1980s there was a good bit of doubt regarding whether or not the trains would be able to consistently make the climb after stopping as it had always been done using momentum to assist.

The real problem isn't primarily the lack of a berm, per se, but that the Utilidors required the elevation of the park at the front so that you have access to Tony's Town Square, and northwards but not to the northern parts of the train track. The Utilidor height is added on to the elevation of the train tracks at the Main Street Station so that guests can walk under, making the grade all that worse. If there was no Utilidors, then the height of the second floor (guest level) could have been lowered significantly when compared to the Fantasyland station/back of the park low point.

The solution would have been to back-fill all the way north to include the train tracks. This would have changed the truck entrance points to the Utilidoors to be tunnels themselves, extended outwards, but what we have to day is a road that is at grade with the Utilidors behind Village Haus. It would have been expensive, but it would have made construction of future lands into the northern expansion pads much easier. You can guess why this wasn't done: cost. (It would be a small additional amount to build a berm so that the train has practically no grade, but this would also have required an elevated Fantasyland station, so yes, in a perfect world a berm would have been built on top of a massive in-fill, though with an in-fill elevating the Fantasyland section of the track to the MS station height could have been done, with a gentle slop that guests wouldn't notice.)

Railroad grade, (elevation) was kept very low for early trains due to power and breaking issues. Even a 1% grade increases the energy required to move a load by a little as two times, and much more if the train is carrying a heavy load. There is a very small grade from Main Street station to Toontown station, and one of the trains, (Ward Kimball?) wasn't powerful enough to handle it!

From an eyeball perspective, the train track around the Magic Kingdom would look practically level, but small changes in grade can make a big difference with the trains they are using. The railroad track is elevated some around the perimeter of MK, but it is not primarily to correct grade.

The Fort Wilderness locomotives had 1% grades to deal with it, and the track was not done as professionally as the one in the Magic Kingdom in terms of using accurate rolling machines, it was done manually, resulting in derailments.

Anyway, you can see why it is perplexing that the Mermaid show building was built on primo real estate in the park, it would have been much more efficient to use the northern expansion pads for a showbuilding, versus later trying to backfill and make it a guest area. A show building for Mermaid could have been built over the road behind of NFL, they could have even used the drop-off for part of the ride: you'd enter Mermaid, winding down a bit through a beach/grotto, then descend maybe 12 feet downwards as part of the ride, a sort of solution for the elevation different here. Remember that the berm/train necessitated some pretty creative solutions for Pirates and the Haunted House which were carried over to other copies of these attractions despite there not being a practical need for them.

The way it is setup, it would be easy to add a Beauty and the Beast dark ride north of Belle's village, they could even put in a theatre for guests to see a show if they wanted. If at some point they go with a ride, I can see a RV/show that uses the descent/ascent to a showbuilding out there, maybe you are in a wild cart pulled by a horse that is flying down a wooded trail towards Belle's village, and then the ascent could be said cart ascending towards the castle, or even up a long staircase inside the castle. Who knows? (If they did go with building a 2-3 story show building, to make the track level with Belle's village, then they'd have an extra floor underneath the track for something . . . they could put in a kuka robot Belle ride probably much easier in this configuration as the "basement" has already been "excavated", i.e. is ground level north of NFL)

Just kinda wish Mermaid's showbuilding was put there, there is room for a couple showbuildings in fact.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The DL scale Locomotives are scaled down with small boilers and pull long heavy loads, so grades are not something they like. Only a few percent (I recall 3 at the most) is really feasible. the Operations team wanted more capacity out of our 3 trains versus building a 4th opening day. This meant making the platforms very long and also making the coaches longer that what scales traditionally. We lost that battle and built 5 car trains, in return we made the longer coaches insanely elegant with real stained and flashed glass windows, pinstriping for days, etc. Nicest cars ever built.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The DL scale Locomotives are scaled down with small boilers and pull long heavy loads, so grades are not something they like. Only a few percent (I recall 3 at the most) is really feasible. the Operations team wanted more capacity out of our 3 trains versus building a 4th opening day. This meant making the platforms very long and also making the coaches longer that what scales traditionally. We lost that battle and built 5 car trains, in return we made the longer coaches insanely elegant with real stained and flashed glass windows, pinstriping for days, etc. Nicest cars ever built.

The DLP trains do look very nice

The Lone Ranger's predicted box office despite notwithstanding . . . I think that the general theme park audience really loves trains. I kinda feel sad that Universal is going to have the Hogwartz Express, which will combine storytelling with the attraction, and thus surpass Disney in terms of storytelling on an train attraction. I wonder if the Hogwartz trains are going to be air conditioned with flat screen "windows".

Proposed Hogwartz train path:

 

[celluloid]

Flat Screens would be a cheap out. Expect a lot more than that. Some pretty unique technologies being worked on for effects of passing scenery and the cabins interiors will be full of detail.

 

[Black Pearl]

Eddie, thanks for the input and time you have put into these discussions. I've only just discovered them and am fascinated.

I was a former entertainment cast member that left for film and TV, and still have a fondness for Disney... So much so that my wife and I were married at WDW nearly a year ago and celebrating our first anniversary there soon.

The inner workings have always been as much candy for me as the final output is.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Welcome and thanks for posting with us!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The DLP trains do look very nice

The Lone Ranger's predicted box office despite notwithstanding . . . I think that the general theme park audience really loves trains. I kinda feel sad that Universal is going to have the Hogwartz Express, which will combine storytelling with the attraction, and thus surpass Disney in terms of storytelling on an train attraction. I wonder if the Hogwartz trains are going to be air conditioned with flat screen "windows".

Proposed Hogwartz train path:

Here's a good thread on the DLP Trains to check out. http://burnsland.com/disneyrailroad...&sid=2824e4c7c77c4a7fd3c0c4cd7012dc73&start=0

 

[darthspielberg]

Wow. That's amazingly insightful! Thanks, Eddie!

I did always wonder about the connection between Grand Floridian and The DLP Hotel.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I kinda feel sad that Universal is going to have the Hogwartz Express, which will combine storytelling with the attraction, and thus surpass Disney in terms of storytelling on an train attraction. I wonder if the Hogwartz trains are going to be air conditioned with flat screen "windows".

Proposed Hogwartz train path:

I believe I had read that the Hogwarts train would actually be a peoplemover type ride system. I wonder then if at the load/unload stations if the trains themselves would essentially be stationary and then the vehicles would move in both directions along the track (not needing a switch track or a turntable). This would mean that the trains at load/unload would be facade/structures that are separate from the actual ride vehicles.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I believe I had read that the Hogwarts train would actually be a peoplemover type ride system. I wonder then if at the load/unload stations if the trains themselves would essentially be stationary and then the vehicles would move in both directions along the track (not needing a switch track or a turntable). This would mean that the trains at load/unload would be facade/structures that are separate from the actual ride vehicles.

The reports are that the exterior of the trains will be done to look like coaches and there will be an attached "locomotive," so no facades. In terms of propulsion it is a Doppelmayr cable car system. Likely the two trains will be attached to the ends of a single cable that way they are always in sync. This is a common set up for funicular cable cars.