Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[The Empress Lilly]

There is such a thing as "can't know". You cannot predict it till you try it. People forget that Disney basically ships the prototype. It's a world of one-offs.

That's a good thing to bear in mind. I'll try to remember it next time I judge/experience a new offering. I have a lot of forgiveness for imperfections for the spontaneous, live, unique work or performance. I can overlook any shortcomings and only judge it on the best I got, not the worst. I should bear in mind that much in the theme park business is unique creative endeavour too - even if ten million have ridden or watched it before.

I do think that with every plan for a prototype, there should be room to learn and adjust the course along the way. Good things do evolve if they learn from the journey. Seldom is there a concept or a design that anticipates every pitfall. I know from my own experience

Which questions WDI's wisdom of letting all that experience walk out the door...

The problem with LM seems to be that no one knew what it had to have to be a great show, so there was little to defend of prioritize. It just became. It was neither Art or Commerce.

Is it better to have a bad plan and execute that enthusiatically than to have a mediocre one and execute that without zeal? I sometimes think so. If only for reasons summed up in the first quote and reply above.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's best to start with a big idea that you know is a "wow" and then surround yourself with the smartest people you can to achieve it. Listen to them. Make your mistakes as fast and as soon as you can before the stakes get too high and never forget what is "big" about the idea. You will make changes and cuts but you can't get close to killing the "wow". The risk is never knowing what the "wow"needed to be and then it gets gutted in the process.

Eisner said once that a great idea can withstand a poor execution and still do pretty well, but a bad idea even when executed lavishly will still fail.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

It's best to start with a big idea that you know is a "wow" and then surround yourself with the smartest people you can to achieve it. Listen to them. Make your mistakes as fast and as soon as you can before the stakes get too high and never forget what is "big" about the idea. You will make changes and cuts but you can't get close to killing the "wow". The risk is never knowing what the "wow"needed to be and then it gets gutted in the process.

Eisner said once that a great idea can withstand a poor execution and still do pretty well, but a bad idea even when executed lavishly will still fail.

Hmmm...maybe I had Eisner in the back of my mind then. Great quote. Eisner had a great grasp of basic truths.

Frankly, the first paragraph too looks familiar, reads as a paraphrase of something you've written earlier in this thread, months ago maybe.

Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that I read way too much Disney related stuff!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hmmm...maybe I had Eisner in the back of my mind then. Great quote. Eisner had a great grasp of basic truths.

Frankly, the first paragraph too looks familiar, reads as a paraphrase of something you've written earlier in this thread, months ago maybe.

Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that I read way too much Disney related stuff!

I often repeat myself myself.

 

[englanddg]

I often repeat myself myself.

Say it again?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As I recall, Michael was stating this in reference to something I suggested that he thought was not a big enough Idea. So when he attacked it, my response was executing it better, not knowing it was the idea he disliked. Then I think he explained. A good call on his part.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I really enjoyed Bob Gurr's take on the development of the doomed "Light Magic" (or perhaps "Magic Lite"?) Parade. I was not involved in it, but recall when watching the show how it left a saccharine aftertaste, like a diet Coke that had long lost it's freshness. It had these videos with gushing demographically targeted kids experiencing "magic and dreams", but felt hollow and calculated to me. The use of fiber optics did not sustain the show and reminded me of the black light accessory room at Spencer Gifts. Tragic, but a good lesson in how things go sideways. The Way Gurr describes the process confirms that somehow the idea, if there was one, never got there. The notion of stopping the float to do the show while the rest of the audience on the route gets nothing was insane. I was told that Michael Eisner really enjoyed "Riverdance", the Irish dance musical and told Disneyland so create something similar. Just a rumor.

Here's Bob's Story.

http://micechat.com/24879-disneyland-light-magic/

Being somewhat of an electronics geek, when I saw Light Magic I was *very* impressed with the fiber optics from a technical standpoint, and I thought the stuff on the Main Street facade looked very good and I couldn't believe what they had done and wasn't surprised that it costed tens of millions. I was freaked out when I saw the "creatures" or whatever they were, though I semi-enjoyed the Pixie fairy theme, it wasn't enough to love the show given how odd the characters were. Outside of the floats . . . Main Street looked amazing and I'll never forget that and I guess I'm glad I saw it as I had no idea it ran for a couple of months. Despite the technological achievement, I guess its the "art" of the project that matters.

While the Main Street Electrical Parade is nice, the whole thing didn't take long to build and I would wager that a Pixar Electrical Parade, with Toy Story characters, Brave, etc . . . would be awesome if it was designed from the ground up, such as by using a combination of incandescents, LEDs, and fiber optics. Yes, Light Magic had no soul, but the fiber optic effects were more ephemeral and whimsical when compared to the much more brightly lit MSEP which doesn't fluctuate/change much in intensity.

Imagine a next-Gen Brave float with bears that fade in and out and willow wisps, or a Wall-E float with fiber optic stars! The possibilities are limitless. I really feel disappointed that all of the tech from Light Magic was trashed as I think delivery and characters/stylistic choices were the problem.

I'll always love MSEP, and it a classic that should be wheeled out from time to time, but there are new classics to love, Pixar and Princess and the Frog and Tangled and even unrecognized classics such as Pooh, doesn't make sense Disney wouldn't spend the $ to do a new parade, which I think would be cheaper to run with LEDs and fiber optics.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Technically it was impressive, but to me that was it. It just did not have any emotion or even a point. The Electrical parade was intrinsically magical and you could just enjoy it.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Technically it was impressive, but to me that was it. It just did not have any emotion or even a point. The Electrical parade was intrinsically magical and you could just enjoy it.

Many diehards complain about too many "franchises" invading the parks, though at the time of Light Magic, Disney didn't have a Fairy franchise—or as I like to think of it, a fairy backstory. The whole Tinker Bell and friends has changed that, and there are distinct fairies, some come out during the winter versus the spring (from what snippets I have seen), so I think if the whole concept was re-thought, perhaps with more floats and floats that don't park and just give half the audience a show, it could work, though I don't think folks would want to see a whole parade dedicated to fairies. (And it would need to stylistically match the Fairies franchise). They could theme it to Disney films that are immersed in nature, such as:

Bambi
Brave
Tinker Bell
Bug's Life
Frozen (Snow Queen)
Pooh
20,000 Remake . . . they could do a gigantic squid with arms that seemingly reach over and almost into the audience.
Pete's Dragon Remake . . . re-do the dragon in a new style.
Snow White
Sleeping Beauty cottage

They could avoid the bright lights of MSEP and go for a more organic lighting scheme, with fiber optics and toned down LEDs/incandescents.

Imagine a high-tech Frozen float . . . blue and white lights, perhaps a snow machine pumping out gusts of snow, fiber optics over head with are meant to be snow flakes. If you use the tech that has been available for over a decade, you can make something truly beautiful. Yes, Light Magic was truly hideous in terms of design and characters, but if you look at the component pieces, the LED flowers alone, taken out of context, are IMHO more magical than anything MSEP has when you go to the resolution of bulbs and floats, overall MSEP is a wonderful magical experience, but its 1970s tech save for Tink's pixiedust.

Check out the LED flowers of the parade on YouTube . . . if done less disco and more "magical" in terms of programing the lights, a Tinker Bell float, perhaps with more incandescents could be very magical.

Beauty and the Beast came out in 1991 . . . an LED encrusted rose flower would be great, but yet we are still using 1970s tech and characters for MSEP!

And with today's technology, imagine jamming 10X the number of fiber optics into a float so it is as bright as an MSEP float, could be done with LED light sources, IMHO, and Li batteries . .

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I can't tell you exactly why the elements of the MSEP come together to "click", but they do. The music seems really well suited for the visuals. It does not come off prerecorded, but almost organic to the lights themselves. It's all about being electronic and yet the music seems childlike and delicate. There is no canned chorus of singers drilling a jingle about dreams and magic at 100 db. It is just this suite of tingling music that somehow fits what you are seeing and that's all. It is not over produced. There is a certain graphic continuity to the floats that makes them the sum of their own parts. All those lights en masse. When you see the whole thing coming down the darkened street that is awe inspiring. Abstract and truly dreamlike, the lights of the parade interpret the characters on it's own terms. Light Magic and other parades are more literal. Rolling meet and greets.

I was walking DL Main Street yesterday and compared to all of the other versions, it is the simplest architecturally. One of the ways to tell what has been added over the years, is that some additions seem overly ornamental (or out of scale) compared to the base buildings beneath. It occurred to me that part of the personality of the DL MSUSA is that it has a childlike innocence in it's modest simplicity. There is no Crystal Palace, no 2 story porches filled with gingerbread. It's Victorian, but at the complexity of a dollhouse, not a Gothic Mansion. It's small town appeal derives from being straight forward and plain, but warm and approachable. The scale of the buildings reinforces that. Sometimes in an effort to honor the Disney tradition of detail and quality, that simplicity gets trampled somewhat by well intended design. I know in the case of DLP, we were working over the design of the WDW MS and it was not really emblematic of a small town as much as a victorian resort community. Different emotional feel. We skewed it into being a hybrid with the billboards and Americana. It has a richness that is addictive and rich, but it never had the warmth of the "Mayberry" feel of the DL version.

Where I'm going with this is that the parades may have become technically elaborate, yet emotionally plastic and superficial (at least to me), versus the sincere "lighting in a bottle" captured by the MSEP. I heard once that great design happens when you have stripped everything unnecessary away.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I can't tell you exactly why the elements of the MSEP come together to "click", but they do. The music seems really well suited for the visuals. It does not come off prerecorded, but almost organic to the lights themselves. It's all about being electronic and yet the music seems childlike and delicate. There is no canned chorus of singers drilling a jingle about dreams and magic at 100 db. It is just this suite of tingling music that somehow fits what you are seeing and that's all. It is not over produced. There is a certain graphic continuity to the floats that makes them the sum of their own parts. All those lights en masse. When you see the whole thing coming down the darkened street that is awe inspiring. Abstract and truly dreamlike, the lights of the parade interpret the characters on it's own terms. Light Magic and other parades are more literal. Rolling meet and greets.

I was walking DL Main Street yesterday and compared to all of the other versions, it is the simplest architecturally. One of the ways to tell what has been added over the years, is that some additions seem overly ornamental (or out of scale) compared to the base buildings beneath. It occurred to me that part of the personality of the DL MSUSA is that it has a childlike innocence in it's modest simplicity. There is no Crystal Palace, no 2 story porches filled with gingerbread. It's Victorian, but at the complexity of a dollhouse, not a Gothic Mansion. It's small town appeal derives from being straight forward and plain, but warm and approachable. The scale of the buildings reinforces that. Sometimes in an effort to honor the Disney tradition of detail and quality, that simplicity gets trampled somewhat by well intended design. I know in the case of DLP, we were working over the design of the WDW MS and it was not really emblematic of a small town as much as a victorian resort community. Different emotional feel. We skewed it into being a hybrid with the billboards and Americana. It has a richness that is addictive and rich, but it never had the warmth of the "Mayberry" feel of the DL version.

Where I'm going with this is that the parades may have become technically elaborate, yet emotionally plastic and superficial (at least to me), versus the sincere "lighting in a bottle" captured by the MSEP. I heard once that great design happens when you have stripped everything unnecessary away.

That's a really great analogy, and I get what you are saying. The "simplicity" of MSEP also works fantastically well when guests spy the parade approaching their viewing area as you can instantly recognize Peter Dragon from a distances away. Up close you can see all the characters, and the lights are even more dazzling. I guess MSEP magic is that upfront sincerity that Tony Baxter talked about, versus just using the canvas to create an impression of something that might be mysterious and entertaining to guests, from a purely technical level.

Light Magic, and I saw it right off the hub kinda near a float as I remember, was jumbled mess of colors and shapes, very hard to discern what was what, and no doubt this lead to the "hideous" artistic impression it made.

Here is a really cool video of a guy who has a wonderful model of Main Street and a crude version of MSEP that travels up and down it.



I kinda hope they bring MSEP back to Disneyland, it was . . . unnerving seeing it in DCA. MSEP will always be pure magic, I always get a chill down my spine when they dim the lights on Main Street and Baroque Hoedown starts. If they did a Tangled or Brave float, I can see they couldn't change the size and spacing of the lights much, otherwise it wouldn't match with the whole parade.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I know in the case of DLP, we were working over the design of the WDW MS and it was not really emblematic of a small town as much as a victorian resort community. Different emotional feel. We skewed it into being a hybrid with the billboards and Americana. It has a richness that is addictive and rich, but it never had the warmth of the "Mayberry" feel of the DL version.

DLP's Main Street reminds me most of Disneyland, rather than Magic Kingdom, for some reason. Maybe because DLP's castle is more whimsical, welcoming and "cute" like the Disneyland castle, versus the Magic Kingdom's castle which is more fortress like. As hub trees no longer hide the castle as much, a lot of the vibe of Main Street comes from the castle.

Anyway, it was a bizarre experience to live in a foreign country in Europe and then visit a place I've never been before (DLP) and immediately have my homesickness vanish and feel at home! It felt like being in Anaheim a world away.

Beyond the details of the shops, I think Main Street serves a critical function for park guests, who may well be tired/weary from travel, in that it is relaxing and gets you into a state of mind to enjoy a theme park. Some motion pictures start off with action, like Indiana Jones, whereas many other begin with footage of whatever community in which much of the story will take place.

Somehow starting off with Tomorrowland, like MK's, with a bee hive of activity with the rocket jets and People Mover seems wrong as I would guess that the guest never gets a chance to relax and shift gears.

It will be interesting to see how Shanghai's entrance plaza works, despite not being a Main Street, there will be a decompression zone via the greenery and water features.

Main Street in the castle parks also provides this rich sense of community and pride for the park . . . Chinese society is different, with regards to political freedom and expression, and perhaps the average Chinese guest might not want to feel like a "citizen" but rather to run off on a great adventure far removed from anything even remotely similar to modern civilization. I kinda think that the Chinese government nixed Main Street in part due to it being American, in addition to not wanting to showcase a idealized foreign town which might promote some thoughts about the grass being greener on the other side.

I figured they might go with a nostalgic and idealized Chinese village/street for Main Street . . . but as the current regime in China only came to power relatively recently, they're probably nervous about depicting warm fuzzy nosalgia for a time when their regime wasn't in power.

I got say, China has made improvements, but they still hand over North Korean defectors caught in China to North Korea . . . where they know they'll be executed or sent to a work camp. Chinese also can be heavy handed with their own dissidents. Overall, I think a Shanghai Disneyland could actually help China work through its problems by showcasing, hopefully, a brilliant piece of urban design which has worked well for over half a century, and maybe start them to think about a big, bright and beautiful tomorrow.

North Korea's Kim Jung-Un likes Mickey Mouse, and one of his brothers tried to sneek into Tokyo Disneyland . . . about the only country he can travel to is China! It would be kinda surreal to see Kim Jung-Un in Shanghai Disneyland, I'm sure the Chinese might close the park just so he could visit, perhaps in exchange for scaling down his country's nuclear program. Mickey Mouse as diplomat? It will sure be interesting when the park opens.

 

[Omnispace]

Sometimes in an effort to honor the Disney tradition of detail and quality, that simplicity gets trampled somewhat by well intended design.

Excellent point! This quote itself explains many of the "misses" I have seen around the parks. One might be shooting for Norman Rockwell and unintentionally end up with Thomas Kinkade. The "richness" of design does not necessarily relate to how much something is embellished.

 

[Omnispace]

Slightly off topic, but Eddie worked for Knott's so it would be interesting to get his take. I've always loved the log ride at Knott's and I'm very happy that it's getting the proper attention. It's the the type of quality attraction that for me kept Knott's fairly comparable to Disneyland back in the 70's and early 80's. I was worried that Cedar Fair was ignoring their greatest assets but their attitude seems to be changing for the better. It also looks like Garner Holt Productions understands the right attention to detail as explained in this video.

To the Video>>>

And at Miceage they show some extremely lifelike characters for the scenes in the ride. I'm looking forward to seeing it completed.

Miceage>>>

_

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Slightly off topic, but Eddie worked for Knott's so it would be interesting to get his take. I've always loved the log ride at Knott's and I'm very happy that it's getting the proper attention. It's the the type of quality attraction that for me kept Knott's fairly comparable to Disneyland back in the 70's and early 80's. I was worried that Cedar Fair was ignoring their greatest assets but their attitude seems to be changing for the better. It also looks like Garner Holt Productions understands the right attention to detail as explained in this video.

To the Video>>>

And at Miceage they show some extremely lifelike characters for the scenes in the ride. I'm looking forward to seeing it completed.

Miceage>>>

_

Thanks for posting that, awesome concept art showing scenes that have humor in the vein of some of Marc Davis' work. Kinda wished that they added something . . . anything . . . character wise for Grizzly River Run, though obviously this would require reconstructive surgery to build a control room and to put in electrical lines for animatronics.

I really like the idea of bear animatronics in a river ride, maybe one day Disney will take out GRR and use the plumbing to put in a Brave river ride with witch's cottage, bears, and Merida and friends.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Mystic Manor ride thru video

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Mystic Manor ride thru video

One of the quibbles I have with MM (I've watched this video four times now) vs the traditional Haunted Mansion in DL and MK, is the overall scale of the environment being presented.

Never once did I get the sense that I was in a mansion. The heavy use of digital projections obviously required a smaller scale for the rooms and transitional hallways. At times the intimacy of said scale was appropriate, such as the introductory scene with Lord Mystic. HM's hallway of doors and attic scenes also incorporate intimacy well, but HM goes one step further with its expansive grandness of scenes like the ballroom and graveyard. Nothing in the MM video begins to compare to those two HM scenes in terms of a Wow! factor.

I wanted to feel overwhelmed at some point, like the magic from the music box was really going to destroy the place. But even in the Chinese room with the swirling vortex, it just didn't come across for me. Perhaps this was a conscience decision on the part of the execs to keep MM more family friendly; I don't know. But given the genre of the attraction, I feel it should be a bit darker like its HM cousins.

MM to me is basically cute and bouncy, like a puppy with a new toy. It's the 'small world' version of Haunted Mansion. Not necessarily bad... just not the typical haunted house amusement park attraction.

 

[Darth Sidious]

I haven't been by these parts in far too long (this thread that is)... I am interested in your thoughts on Mystic Manor Eddie. I think it is a very Disney, very well executed ride. One that WDW needs and the ride's design and general story ideas fit perfectly with the theme and story of the Imagination Pavilion.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

One of the quibbles I have with MM (I've watched this video four times now) vs the traditional Haunted Mansion in DL and MK, is the overall scale of the environment being presented.

Never once did I get the sense that I was in a mansion.

MM to me is basically cute and bouncy, like a puppy with a new toy. It's the 'small world' version of Haunted Mansion. Not necessarily bad... just not the typical haunted house amusement park attraction.

I have to say that though I am a fan of HM in Disneyland and WDW, I really like what was done here:

Positives:

1. I like the strong storyline with the Monkey. Much has been written about Pirates and HM not having a implicit storyline, and these attractions are great, but I actually like Haunted Mansion Holiday more than the regular version, I kinda like something that ties it all together. Classic Haunted Mansion is nice, of course, but they took out the raven who would have been a guide and its kinda generic being closer to a traditional theme park haunted house ride.

2. The special effects look great, and when combined with animatronics this is kinda a progression of Country Bear show, which I think is long overdue, and which makes use of new technology to provide something truly unique.

3. The apparently random motion of the ride vehicle, I get sort of an open air vibe from the ride, which I think is a plus. The doombuggy provides a sense of security, like a baby's stroller, but it is not needed here as the ride doesn't focus on creepy and is going more for supernatural.

4. The Pompei scene with folks getting covered by lava is a little creepy, as is the gladiator with the lion, but I like these little historical details/nods. The ride has an Epcot-ish feel to it.

Negatives:

1. There is no big graveyard scale scene, obviously the ride doesn't have a showbuilding as big as DL's HM, and I think they should have had an "out of the mansion" scene, such as monkey running through an outside garden area with bizarre plants and maybe hoses and rakes coming to life. I think having some larger scenes would have helped if they plan on doing some sort of overlay in the future. Disneyland has a lot of overlays, and perhaps Hong Kong would benefit from offering seasonal overlays for their guests . . . meaning they should have built it with alternative future uses in mind.

2. Strong storyline. I know I listed this as a positive, and I dig the storyline, but of course after you're 20 ride through, you've got the story down pat. I think that the details of the ride and special effects are enough to keep the ride "fresh" to repeat visitors, but I haven't actually seen it in person.

3. Didn't "get" the lava guy, or why his eyes flash different colors. This room doesn't look as impressive as I would have guessed, i.e. with lava flowing everywhere.

4. Too short? Like a great tasting appetizer, I want more! The ride is probably a minute and a half shorter than than the classic HM, though the queue for HM also is part of the "show" extending the whole experience to about 10 minutes or so. What does MM queue look like? Does it add significantly to the world and story of MM?

 

[flynnibus]

But even in the Chinese room with the swirling vortex, it just didn't come across for me

I gotta think that room reads a lot better in person than in video...