Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
Maybe when they fix the exterior of the ride they'll also take the time to upgrade the ride system.
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
Maybe when they fix the exterior of the ride they'll also take the time to upgrade the ride system.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
Heh. Doubt that, but you never know.
Even if they do replace the system, that won't stop the fire department from coming, sometimes.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
Here's an observation/question regarding Alice and advanced animatronics:
Alice is a charming ride, but the figures don't have nearly the range of motion that Ariel in Mermaid has . . . yet, if you look closely at Ariel (which isn't hard to do as you get so close to her and the Ursula animatronic) it is obvious that it (she) is a "robot" as you can see the seams and while the movement is good, it is hard not to be aware of her mechanical nature.
Whereas the limited/non-moving dark light figures have the advantage of looking more realistic, if not exactly moving in a realistic manner, but seem to be more believable, perhaps because your mind's eyes doesn't have time to process their image as being robotic.
Would it be worth WDI time to replace some limited motion animatronics in classic rides with advanced animatronics without the need/desire to slow the ride down to show guests what a wonderful job was done? Or without the need to replace the dark lighting with white light? Such as replacing the Peter Pan figure on the pirate boat with an advanced animatronic that can really fence more realistically, even if some guests might miss it I think it would be a great effect such that if you saw it your reaction would be "wow".
It seems there is a correlation between "face time" for a figure and the level of sophistication:
Grotto Ariel animatronic 15 seconds
Overheard screen Ariel about 8 seconds
Dole Whip Ariel about 20 seconds
Queen of Hearts on Alice about 4 seconds
Obviously, if you sat a random sampling of guests in front of an Ariel animatronic singing "Part of your World" on a loop in a room, folks would get up an walk out after a couple minutes I'm guessing. Eventually even the most magical window display becomes just a window display on Main Street if you stare at it long enough. Alice has several chesire cats that "pop" visually for a couple seconds on the ride, and it makes the ride feel much more kinetic than Mermaid.
I'd also say that from a story-line perspective, it helps to have some "tension" up front and center, such as in Snow White, Mr. Toad, . . . Mermaid doesn't have this tension from the get-go, or even later on as Ursula is just happily sitting singing her song, and her "destruction" is irrelevant to the "plot" of the ride. Alice has a lot of tension/drama, the White Rabbit is late, the Queen is a megalomaniac bent on beheading . . . I think Mermaid needed more tension and without it, the ride sort of becomes just a musical review.
Alice is a charming ride, but the figures don't have nearly the range of motion that Ariel in Mermaid has . . . yet, if you look closely at Ariel (which isn't hard to do as you get so close to her and the Ursula animatronic) it is obvious that it (she) is a "robot" as you can see the seams and while the movement is good, it is hard not to be aware of her mechanical nature.
Whereas the limited/non-moving dark light figures have the advantage of looking more realistic, if not exactly moving in a realistic manner, but seem to be more believable, perhaps because your mind's eyes doesn't have time to process their image as being robotic.
Would it be worth WDI time to replace some limited motion animatronics in classic rides with advanced animatronics without the need/desire to slow the ride down to show guests what a wonderful job was done? Or without the need to replace the dark lighting with white light? Such as replacing the Peter Pan figure on the pirate boat with an advanced animatronic that can really fence more realistically, even if some guests might miss it I think it would be a great effect such that if you saw it your reaction would be "wow".
It seems there is a correlation between "face time" for a figure and the level of sophistication:
Grotto Ariel animatronic 15 seconds
Overheard screen Ariel about 8 seconds
Dole Whip Ariel about 20 seconds
Queen of Hearts on Alice about 4 seconds
Obviously, if you sat a random sampling of guests in front of an Ariel animatronic singing "Part of your World" on a loop in a room, folks would get up an walk out after a couple minutes I'm guessing. Eventually even the most magical window display becomes just a window display on Main Street if you stare at it long enough. Alice has several chesire cats that "pop" visually for a couple seconds on the ride, and it makes the ride feel much more kinetic than Mermaid.
I'd also say that from a story-line perspective, it helps to have some "tension" up front and center, such as in Snow White, Mr. Toad, . . . Mermaid doesn't have this tension from the get-go, or even later on as Ursula is just happily sitting singing her song, and her "destruction" is irrelevant to the "plot" of the ride. Alice has a lot of tension/drama, the White Rabbit is late, the Queen is a megalomaniac bent on beheading . . . I think Mermaid needed more tension and without it, the ride sort of becomes just a musical review.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I remember in the 1980's that they spent around 7 million dollars upgrading the ride from black light flats to a more dimensional show with better audio, FX, etc. I could not believe that after all of that remodeling, the new figures did not have mouth movements. It was a money issue. To me, it should have been a priority. The ride system which is pretty simple, probably did not get the full treatment either. I still love that ride.
Downtime is a touchy subject for me as we have all too frequently been a victim of being stuck in more than one line in a day and falling victim to a ride going down. Last visit it was Space Mountain, Indiana Jones, Alice and Matterhorn all in the same day. In another instance it happened three times and we wasted most of the day in lines. We only saw Lincoln and Pirates. My guess is that capacity means very little when you have already bought the entire day or are an AP, so there is little incentive for Disney to keep the shows running. Back when they were ticketed you were in effect, losing money so they kept things up.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
There is a tradeoff based on how long you see something and how complicated you make it. Billboards are designed to be read in a few seconds. The difference is POTC. Walt wanted the conversations to be continuous, like mingling at a cocktail party so you got the sense of the action but perhaps did not get every line thrown out to you. In those dark rides, a single line can set the tone like "C'mon everybody here we goooooo" from Peter Pan. "Apple dearie?" or similar. It does not take much. However, the illusion of life versus cardboard flat or plastic doll is the first hurdle then you deal with what it says if anything. If the character does not "come to life", who cares what it says? You want the Queen of Hearts to be real, not a static figure with a voice talking. It would be better to just have her going "Ahhhhhhhh!" with her mouth open and not draw attention to her limitations by adding dialog, no?. AA figures have a limitation on how long they convince you they are lifelike. Lincoln is better than Ariel. It used to be that you could only get about 45 seconds in those Bear Band type shows where the characters sing for you before you need to bring up something else.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
I would think it has more with the attitude towards the park visitors as being more local and more frequent. At Walt Disney World it seems in far too many cases they have become over concerned with hourly capacity.
EPCOTCenterLover
Well-Known Member
Random thoughts, catching up on these posts: I really like Alice but it is so hard to get on, and the queue has horrible access. Every time I do ride it, I think how charming it is. Posters: The new posters by Greg Maletic for DCA are stunning. Absolute old school and on par with the classics of Disneyland. In some ways, they make the park more beautiful than it really is! They help give DCA place and time- something it sorely needed.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
I find it odd the animatronics weren't upgraded as well. Same goes for the ride system. The marching cards don't even reset with the rest of the ride. It has to be manually reset, which is annoying.
Downtimes are not good. I used to pray rides like Alice and Peter Pan wouldn't break down because they're popular rides with long waits and, depending on the situation (boats in the Never Land scene or caterpillars on the vine or in the Tulgy Woods scene), it can take a long time to evacuate. I always felt bad for the guests that would get to the front and the ride would break down. I remember, working Alice one day, a family came through the exit and told us the ride had broke down on them in January and were told they could ride again without waiting in line. We were in the month of October at the time. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, but I let them on anyway.
Matterhorn breaks down on me all the time.
choco choco
Well-Known Member
How do they refurbish black light rides? Do they just repaint the flats? Upgrade the black light? I don't know if black light technology really changes (i.e. becomes more advanced) anymore.
"There is a tradeoff based on how long you see something and how complicated you make it. Billboards are designed to be read in a few seconds." Well stated - how does Disney reconcile the amount of money and detail and time spent (now seemingly irrelevantly) on the YETI in Everest when you put it through that time filter. It was the "star" of the ride, but the screen time seems undeniably short for the amount of resources spent on it. Maybe if that thinking had been applied during the design phase we wouldn't be having "Disco Yeti" discussions to this day.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I'd bet that the thrill ride experience is the real "star" of the show and the Yeti is the payoff. The screen time is short but it has to be a "wow". I think tradeoff or "cost versus effect" is something a show designer weighs in his or her mind when making budget cuts. I cannot respond to a specific effect as I was not there, but I'd assume they thought investing in the Yeti was worth it, although since it is impossible to maintain, then something was missed. It reminds me of the T.Rex at the end of Universal's Jurassic Park Ride as it's the final thing you see before the last thrill. They spent some cash on that too.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I'd bet that the thrill ride experience is the real "star" of the show and the Yeti is the payoff. The screen time is short but it has to be a "wow". I think tradeoff or "cost versus effect" is something a show designer weighs in his or her mind when making budget cuts. I cannot respond to a specific effect as I was not there, but I'd assume they thought investing in the Yeti was worth it, although since it is impossible to maintain, then something was missed. It reminds me of the T.Rex at the end of Universal's Jurassic Park Ride as it's the final thing you see before the last thrill. They spent some cash on that too.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Both. You refresh the flats and changeout the BL lamps. Decades ago Black lights went from flourescent type tubes to a floodlight technology so Disney upgraded to that, (1983 NFL at DL) and it changed how much light was thrown on the sets. So you redo the sets to work better with the light being applied to them. Now LED will change that again.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
With regards to using audio with limited motion figures, I would say that any audio adds to the reality of the ride, and allows the guest to more actively imagine the world they are in. Sure, its not perfect having a static figure talking without the lips moving.
Interestingly, the voice actor who voices Alice in the film was located in southern California, where she was a teacher, and was hired to voice lines for the Disneyland ride. The film sure doesn't have Kathryn Beaumont saying "My adventures in Wonderland began when I followed the White Rabbit down the rabbit hole. All of a sudden I fell! . . . down, down, down."
Same thing with the voice of Peter Pan and Wendy (also Kathryn Beaumont) in the Peter Pan ride, they were hired to come back and add lines for the attraction, such as the "C'mon everybody here we goooooo!" line in Peter Pan. The voice of Mater, Lightning McQueen and Luigi were hired to do some great work in Carsland.
But with Mermaid they didn't hire Jodi Benson (Ariel) or Pat Carroll (Ursula) to do lines for the ride as they just recycled songs from the film! Sure, they hired a voice actor to do some new Scuttle lines, but if, for better or worse, you've seen Mermaid half a billion times, you instantly recognize the original song soundtracks. I think it would have been *awesome* if the hired Jodi Benson to voice some lines, such as "Would you like to visit my world under the ocean?" or even, "I see you've a thinga-ma-bobber there! I'd love to visit the human world sometime." Instead of just, "here's Ariel singing her song, you've seen it before, in fact, this is the same scene from the film." I think having characters in an adventure different from the film makes them more "real" as you're not simply regurgitating the film, but seeing them in "real life" as if on another adventure.
In general, I think that simply replicating scenes from a film doesn't work for a ride because a film has a different tempo than a ride in that a motion picture has more time to win over the audience and make the story plausible and interesting.
Lincoln, IMO, uses careful lighting and a super serious speech along with it being a president that is pretty much adored, in order to get the guests to watch in respectful silence. The auctioneer in Pirates is on the same level, and the trick there is the very non-politically correct idea of auctioning off captured women, which is outlandish enough to distract from the mechanical nature of the scene. I think the most effective pirates in the attraction are actually the limited motion ones sulking off in the shadows nursing a keg of ale, such as the guy who is surrounded by cats.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
Major bummer. Did you ask for a front of the line pass? Often times the lead will hand them out if you ask nicely.
Break-downs and long lines do hurt Disney's bottom line as somebody who wasted an hour in lines, has to get back into the line of a ride that hasn't broken down and thus has less time to buy "stuff" in the park, and also is probably a little grumpy and less inclined to buy food, drinks, merchandise . . . Ticking-off thousands of guests does have a cumulative effect which also means less future visits.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Overall, it's better to let the guest experience the "world" of the film and what they'd wish to do in that world than a book report of the film itself.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
True. This is exactly why people don't like Mermaid, but love the classic dark rides in Fantasyland.
darthspielberg
Well-Known Member
I think that's a broad stroke. I've read many many positive reviews of Little Mermaid.I think the biggest complaint is that it isn't an E Ticket, which, hey, we all knew that would be the case, even if Disney tried to say otherwise.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying everyone. There are people who don't like it for the reason stated above.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
To be fair, there are those (especially small kids) that love that ride. I think it is well reviewed by guests overall too and the company probably thinks it's critical to having the right mix of shows for DCA. It promises "E Ticket" spectacle with the big entrance and massive show building (high expectation) and that's hard to pay off for some. That entrance is more elaborate than Pirates. Most of what I've read say in effect that it lacks "magic" (either in execution or the storytelling) and the unexpected. In some ways, it may suffer from the cumulation of small, almost intangibly minor details that erode the whole. Other issues like layout may have seemed less critical, but in the end effect the tone of the show. Very intangible. It teaches me that no matter how good you are, those small details (level of sheen on figures) still count and make a big emotional difference. Given all that you have to decide, you can miss some of those things and they come back to haunt you. The design team on that show were all first rate. They have corrected some things like lighting, which is way darker now than the first time I rode on it. Other things may come later. It may be that it lives in this "pergatory" of expectation between being a modest FL dark ride and a big, Small World scale show. It's hard to borrow from both. Characters with limited movements are mixed with those that astound with sophisticated technology. That contrast alone makes it hard, no? I say it's a solid D Ticket and does what it sets out to in that it entertains a young audience. We always want more. It could be that it just lacks that "wow" or "magic" for us for the reasons stated by all of you.
We experienced those FL Dark Rides when we were very young and also have those memories that make us cherish them. Mr. Toad was always my favorite as a child. I got to drive in a way that the Autopia would not let me. Now I drive that way for real.