Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

BlueSkyDriveBy

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
Eddie Sotto said:
Tony was involved in that and given this mentoring discussion, the designer assigned to the Fantasy Faire is a talented protege of his, Michel den Dulk. Michel was brought into WDI by Tony from Efteling Park in Europe and was their star designer.
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Quick question for clarification. I've read conflicting stories about Michel leaving Efteling to join WDI and others claiming he left Efteling (design disputes?) and joined Europa before Tony invited him to work at WDI. Any idea which one is correct? I guess it doesn't really matter; just trying to figure out if Michel did any design work for Europa.

Tony has him in an office next to his and they work together. I have seen Dulk's work, (especially his drawing skills) and it's outstanding. Michel gave me a recent tour of his project and it's looking really great. So I know that Tony's mentoring is real and has results that may leave Disneyland in some very good hands.
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OK, this question is just begging to be asked: will Michel remain at WDI, now that Tony is leaving?

I have no idea if Michel has any champions to speak of in Glendale, other than Tony. And since Tony was the one who brought him to the United States to work at Imagineering, and the current regime pretty much hates the guy, will any of this spill over onto Michel? You know, the guilt by association kind of crap?

I'd hate to think that leadership in Glendale is that petty, but... yeah, it's that petty. :(
 
Figments Friend

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
Eddie Sotto said:
The house looks WAY better than those 1994 images. Tony would kill me if he saw that link, but I could not find any other galleries to link. Maybe he'll send me some to post? He has read this thread BTW.
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THAT is awesome. WOW..!
( waves )

Tony, go easy on Eddie. He was just sharing a little of your personal magic-at-home with us..we LOVE IT !
 
BlueSkyDriveBy

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
Eddie Sotto said:
I think the one difference in Tony that is worth mentioning is that he lives the product. Walt had an apartment in the park and was building a second, Tony built a home that lives strictly by his own Disney aesthetic rules. He lives in his own design ethic. All of the stagecraft of Fantasyland lives at his home..

... No one at the company is quite that obsessed.
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This is why Tony is hated by the others like Fitz and Vaughn. They don't "live the product" at all. Imagineering just a job to them, a career path to give them hefty compensation so they can vacation as far away from the Disney theme parks and their rabid foamers they loathe and ridicule so much.

(Ok...My home looks more like the lobby of the Tower of Terror BTW).
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And if you're anything like me regarding domestic engineering duties, it has the same one-inch coat of dust everywhere! :p

That kind of passion is something you can't hire and they don't teach at Carnegie Mellon. The 1G guys by and large did not live in themed environments. Claude didn't. Tony is rare in that way. You buy into his thing because he's living it. This gives him unwavering conviction (which can be dangerous) and certainly is contagious.
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Dangerous? As in, makes you the recipient of derision and contempt?

Kim Irvine down at Disneyland has been tireless in her efforts to keep the show up regardless of lean times or fat. In addition to her legendary talent as an artist, she has a winning way with people, which is critical to navigating the politics of the parks and getting things done. We moved on and evolve into our own projects, but like the many talents I've been able to work with, you learn something from each one. Tony really impressed upon me as did Tom Morris how rides truly get designed and the "why for". He knew what we all did well and leveraged that.
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You're making a very solid argument for why Tom and Kim might find themselves getting pink slips in the future. Everything they and Tony stand for with regard to design seems to go against what the current regime is willing to sign off on now.

People think that Tony was involved in the current version of TLM because of that bonus clip on the DVD about the ride that never was. But closer examination of the ride's details (or lack thereof) and sloppy story flow clearly demonstrates otherwise. The second generation Imagineers get this stuff and fully understand what makes for "bad show," yet current leadership could give a tinker's dam. They seem to be more concerned with the THRC than the actual show contained inside. Only quantifiable elements are understood by these sharp pencil guys. Qualitative elements are too warm and fuzzy and difficult to explain on a spreadsheet, and they lack the artistic counterbalance in someone such as Frank Wells to help them understand why those factors are also important.


Having a creative studio managed exclusively by non-creatives is stupid. But Burbank doesn't seem to care, as long as they've got intellectual property to sell in the form of branded merchandise. The parks and resorts have now become nothing but glorified shopping malls.
 
HMF

HMF

Well-Known Member
BlueSkyDriveBy said:
This is why Tony is hated by the others like Fitz and Vaughn. They don't "live the product" at all. Imagineering just a job to them, a career path to give them hefty compensation so they can vacation as far away from the Disney theme parks and their rabid foamers they loathe and ridicule so much.
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To be fair Fitz isn't quite as bad as Vaughn. He's a pretty good writer and has wanted the WDI gig since he was 8 years old. Granted, his tenure as a Creative Executive was rather unfortunate and he was Tony's Arch-rival but Vaughn strikes me as a complete yes-man who worships at the feet of the three stooges. (Iger,Staggs and Rasulo.)
 
BlueSkyDriveBy

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
HMF said:
To be fair Fitz isn't quite as bad as Vaughn. He's a pretty good writer and has wanted the WDI gig since he was 8 years old. Granted, his tenure as a Creative Executive was rather unfortunate and he was Tony's Arch-rival but Vaughn strikes me as a complete yes-man who worships at the feet of the three stooges. (Iger,Staggs and Rasulo.)
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Fitz was more like Tony, back in the glory days of EPCOT development. But since his transformation, uh, promotion to Senior Creative Executive in 2001, he's been a different person. In a nutshell, Fitz sold out.

Yes, I'll agree that Vaughn is far worse. But Fitz has slowly morphed into more of a yes-man since 2001, and even more so since Vaughn's mutation, uh, promotion in May 2007. It's most likely a survival tactic at this point, given his history as an alum of the 'Class of EPCOT' since very few of those Imagineers are still with the company (most who've been involuntarily let go over the years).

Anyone over 60 or pushing that boundary will only continue to survive by swallowing their pride and selling out their creative values and any desire to maintain Walt's legacy. The current regime cares more about austerity than anything else. Choose to take a stand for quality and you're going to be shown the door, or at least severely marginalized until you lose control and quit in a fit of pique.
 
HMF

HMF

Well-Known Member
BlueSkyDriveBy said:
Fitz was more like Tony, back in the glory days of EPCOT development. But since his transformation, uh, promotion to Senior Creative Executive in 2001, he's been a different person. In a nutshell, Fitz sold out.

Yes, I'll agree that Vaughn is far worse. But Fitz has slowly morphed into more of a yes-man since 2001, and even more so since Vaughn's mutation, uh, promotion in May 2007. It's most likely a survival tactic at this point, given his history as an alum of the 'Class of EPCOT' since very few of those Imagineers are still with the company (most who've been involuntarily let go over the years).

Anyone over 60 or pushing that boundary will only continue to survive by swallowing their pride and selling out their creative values and any desire to maintain Walt's legacy. The current regime cares more about austerity than anything else. Choose to take a stand for quality and you're going to be shown the door, or at least severely marginalized until you lose control and quit in a fit of pique.
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I am by no means trying to defend Fitzgerald as he is a major part of the problem.
 
BlueSkyDriveBy

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
HMF said:
I am by no means trying to defend Fitzgerald as he is a major part of the problem.
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I know that. I apologize if my post suggested or implied as much.

Imagineers like Fitz are the most frustrating, because they had the 'Disney fire' in their youth, but snuffed it out once the money started rolling in, giving them a lucrative lifestyle they wouldn't have had otherwise. Tony always stuck to his design principles as an Imagineer, whereas Fitz let his principles slide with each subsequent promotion.
 
Genie of the Lamp

Genie of the Lamp

Well-Known Member
Will Fitzgerald have any creative insight on the projects that happen at DL Shanghai? When Tony was still with WDI, did he fight for getting involvement for DL Shanghai attractions? Which Imagineers will be leading the DL Shanghai attractions?
 
HMF

HMF

Well-Known Member
BlueSkyDriveBy said:
I know that. I apologize if my post suggested or implied as much.

Imagineers like Fitz are the most frustrating, because they had the 'Disney fire' in their youth, but snuffed it out once the money started rolling in, giving them a lucrative lifestyle they wouldn't have had otherwise. Tony always stuck to his design principles as an Imagineer, whereas Fitz let his principles slide with each subsequent promotion.
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I never realized there was a personality change with him but in my eyes someone who sells out is worse than someone who was bad from the beginning.
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Full disclosure. I was supposed to have dinner with Bruce Vaughn tonight (he is an investor of Rivera Restaurant), but we had to reschedule. It is true, Bruce is not of the "Disney obsessed" the way Tony is (who is?), but not being in the same realm of passion or coming to the company the same way does not make him "evil" either. He does love the product and has great pride in what gets done at WDI. He tries to push things forward and in doing that there is risk (NextGen). Some things turn out great and others less so. Not all of Tony's efforts were perfect either. You have to keep trying and he does. Bruce has a unique job in that he has to run WDI creatively and allow for many Imagineers with a wide variety of ideas to express their visions and views while also meeting the evolving criteria of where the company wants to head. WDI is sometimes the "tail" of the Mouse. It's a tough, "cat herding" type job. Vaughn has never described himself as a visionary although he is a creative arbiter and facilitator. You don't want another Disney fan running the show as they will impose their own things and cause a mutiny with the other execs. Tony's letter addresses how things have changed "culturally" but that's a long conversation and I will leave it at that. Maybe Tony will address it himself at some point. Frankly, I understand the strong feelings about losing Baxter as he represents many things to all of us, but I really don't want this thread to sink into speculative assassinations of various personalities as there are other forums to discuss it. Having said that, I'm gladly here on my own time to discuss design and the Disney process with you. Yes, politics shape the process and the product and we do get into that, but conversations about specific individuals are kind of endless, usually not accurate, and are not a good use of my time.

I do think we can reflect on some of the interesting things Tony taught us all. That can go on for quite some time!
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Here's something Tony discussed once that always stayed with me.

We had a great discussion once about how inefficient spaces are more interesting than efficient ones. I don't think he was the first person to say this, as Imagineer architect Chris Carradine used to look at these things with us. As I recall, a plan view of Venice Italy was dropped over the plan of Disneyland and you could not believe that it seemed to fit inside the park. However, there were many more streets that in plan view look like a piece of shattered pottery. Of course, there is Piazza San Marco, the famous square that sort of unifies the city. But by and large you are exploring nothing but a bunch of alleys with payoffs at the canals and bridges. What intrigued me about all this was that people of than flocking to Venice Italy for centuries and it was the most inefficient layout you could possibly imagine. But it did have things that no other city had that were iconic. The gondola and its entertainment value of course being the most prominent. The architecture ran a close second. Sometimes you see architects laying out shopping centers with a series of grand passageways and boulevards with absolutely no mystery whatsoever. There is nothing to explore. Of course, Walt Disney understood the value of putting icons or weenies at the ends of the streets to draw you. One lesson that's sometimes lost is that the icon itself once you reach it, needs to pay off in a big way with some kind of experience. I would say that's one issue I have with cars land is that the courthouse doesn't do anything. There is nothing in it and so when you reach it in somewhat dissatisfying. Fortunately, you're distracted by the line for the ride.

We used to spend quite a bit of time talking about iconography and its importance. Tony taught us as well as others that "objects" ( Walt used to call them "things") are far more memorable than architecture.
 

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