Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Wasn't that Bruce Gordon's infamous line for circumventing authority?

"It's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."

Yes it was. The trouble is that after several offenses they are reluctant to forgive.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

OK, that's the article!

Thanks again.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Found this article, Sadly no pics. I do have the issue of Disney Magazine where they tour his house. I'll try to upload it.
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-12-15/home/hm-5934_1_english-tudor-cottage

That's a great article, I like how Tony talks about painting rockwork to make it looks realistic:

Brick, said Baxter, is relatively easy to emulate, although it still has to be tinted to get that old-world look. But achieving a realistic rock is much harder.

"It's difficult to make rock look real," he said. "What is interesting is if you look at a rock, you think it's one color, say a brown rock. But look at it closely, and you see far more going on. That's the flaw in trying to paint something one color because it won't look real unless you show eight or nine things going on that optically blend into one color. It's all pulled together with stains of browns, grays and greens. You can't just paint it brown."

The article also describes a wall made to look like it was half fallen apart, I'd love to see pictures of that ever since I saw this article years ago. There's a real artistry in making something magical, but also introducing wear and tear in a Disney-type way that doesn't tarnish the fantasy element.

I think BoG aims for this sort of orderly decay/crumbling bricks, which are really neat and tidy when you look closely (only the top side of the "bricks" are chipped):

Maybe could have used some fake moss on top, or a vine grow up it, IMHO, maybe some lines that look like water damage where water has flowed down the stones from top to bottom.

Though Disney does rockwork very well, it does have to be maintained. I wonder if they ever thought of building terraces, and then filling the top of them with real rocks, perhaps cut and cemented together in certain areas, in order to achieve a more naturalistic feel . . . could be done for a small sized project, or for the more visible parts of a new 'mountain.'

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Sometimes you see architects laying out shopping centers with a series of grand passageways and boulevards with absolutely no mystery whatsoever. There is nothing to explore. Of course, Walt Disney understood the value of putting icons or weenies at the ends of the streets to draw you. One lesson that's sometimes lost is that the icon itself once you reach it, needs to pay off in a big way with some kind of experience. I would say that's one issue I have with cars land is that the courthouse doesn't do anything. There is nothing in it and so when you reach it in somewhat dissatisfying. Fortunately, you're distracted by the line for the ride.

It's a great comment about inefficient space, which a lot of European cities have, I think because the roads were put down where the cow paths were or something like that. I did a study abroad in Segovia Spain many years ago, and my first impression was that Disney built this town, I would look at all of the details and really smile, disbelieving that all of these awesome details happened sort of by chance!

The castle in Segovia I believe was one of the ones used as a model for the Disneyland castle, big disapointment as there wasn't much inside, maybe a small museum of armor if I remember correctly.

Shops and tons of hidden alleyways to explore as well!

Interestingly, they also almost filmed Willie Wonka (Gene Wilder version) in Segovia before deciding to do it elsewhere.

I used to take walks around town (everything is within walking distance) and hum the Pirate ride song.

I was also surprised that the courthouse wasn't the entrance to the RSR queue, though I do love Stanley's Oasis, but I feel a little cheated that this building is not a guest area.

 

[Jeanine]

The other thing that made Tony's projects rich are the how he "cast" them. We pretty much went off on our own once he bought into what we were doing but he assigned us to our roles for a reason. He leveraged our strengths.

I remember in the talk he gave at Disneyland Paris for the 20th, he did make a point of this, saying how he more or less gathered a gang of his friends and assigned them whatever matched their interests--Tom Morris loving fairy tales, and Jeff Burke being a cowboy, etc.

 

[Omnispace]

Eddie, are you sure Tony wasn't pulling your leg?? Venice is quite a bit larger than Disneyland. Still your point is well taken and it's a fascinating place. Venice is one of those cities that can profoundly affect you if you let it. The maze of streets can be a wonderful place to explore but they can also become maddening as they take a sudden turn in the wrong direction or dead end. But when they reach the waterfront, or Piazza San Marco, or the Rialto, and open up to amazing vistas it can be all the more breathtaking. I think one really needs to take entire city into context because it's not complete without the lagoon and the canals. It really can't be experienced fully unless you take a boat along it's waterways. If you can't afford a gondola, a vaporetto (water bus) is a great way to see it.

The Italy pavilion at Epcot is really just a tiny tiny fragment of the city but with the World Showcase lagoon they actually captured an important relationship between the Doge's Palace and the water. I only wish that the rest of the pavilion brought one deep into the complexities of Venice. Even some intimate walkways like in New Orleans Square would help create that dichotomy between compressive and expansive spaces. The new pizza restaurant helps to make the piazza more complete but it is definitely not the payoff you describe. I think everyone had been hoping for a fully realized attraction back there.

Jumping from Rick Steves to book review mode... A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander if a good resource to those seeking a better understanding of the "language" of urban spaces. It can be a bit too dogmatic at times -- they make some very specific statements about column sizes and doorways, etc... But it is a good visual book and really makes one think about all those little elements of architecture and cities that really aren't "memorable" but can still enrich our experiences.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Eddie, are you sure Tony wasn't pulling your leg?? Venice is quite a bit larger than Disneyland.

Have you ever done a comparative overlay of Venice to almost anyplace in the US? It is astonishing and you second guess yourself on having the scale right. It is a incredibly compact, and small scale city.

 

[Omnispace]

OK, that's the article!

Thanks for posting the article! We'll bring you a cake with a file in it if you end up in jail.

 

[Omnispace]

Have you ever done a comparative overlay of Venice to almost anyplace in the US? It is astonishing and you second guess yourself on having the scale right. It is a incredibly compact, and small scale city.

Yes, you almost expect it to be part of a much larger city, but that's it -- just a collection of islands in a lagoon!

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yes, you almost expect it to be part of a much larger city, but that's it -- just a collection of islands in a lagoon!

A figure-ground of the buildings is even more startling.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Thank you BSDB!!!

I'm sure the City of Anaheim will charge admission to it a hundred years from now.

Only if global warming and resultant brush fires don't eliminate it first.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's a great comment about inefficient space, which a lot of European cities have, I think because the roads were put down where the cow paths were or something like that. I did a study abroad in Segovia Spain many years ago, and my first impression was that Disney built this town, I would look at all of the details and really smile, disbelieving that all of these awesome details happened sort of by chance!

The castle in Segovia I believe was one of the ones used as a model for the Disneyland castle, big disapointment as there wasn't much inside, maybe a small museum of armor if I remember correctly.

.

To me, the Segovia Castle looks even more like the inspiration for the animated one in Snow White than Disneyland's Sleeping Beauty Castle (which literally rips off Neuschwanstein). It may have been in the research files at the Studio when they started concept work.

 

[Figments Friend]

Awesome photo!
Many thanks for sharing this !

 

[Figments Friend]

OK, that's the article!

Absolutely awesome article !
Thank you for sharing this here !

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Brick, said Baxter, is relatively easy to emulate, although it still has to be tinted to get that old-world look. But achieving a realistic rock is much harder.

There's a wall at the back of the east annex on DL's Main Street which is a hodgepodge of different brick styles. I've never been able to verify why the wall was done this way; the prevailing theory is that this was the "test wall" for Main Street brick design, which was never removed before the park opened.

"It's difficult to make rock look real," he said. "What is interesting is if you look at a rock, you think it's one color, say a brown rock. But look at it closely, and you see far more going on. That's the flaw in trying to paint something one color because it won't look real unless you show eight or nine things going on that optically blend into one color. It's all pulled together with stains of browns, grays and greens. You can't just paint it brown."

Eddie, wasn't rock work one of Matt McKim's specialties? Didn't he do most of the rock work for Paris?

The article also describes a wall made to look like it was half fallen apart, I'd love to see pictures of that ever since I saw this article years ago. There's a real artistry in making something magical, but also introducing wear and tear in a Disney-type way that doesn't tarnish the fantasy element.

OK, this isn't the best photo to highlight the wall you're describing, but it gives you a sense of the look Tony was aiming for on his house exterior. (Thanks to my friend with the way better camera who took this photo at the CPHS tour of Tony's house in 2005.)

Though Disney does rockwork very well, it does have to be maintained.

Which makes me wonder what the Cadillac Range in Carsland is going to look like after 10 years of baking in the hot SoCal summer sun.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As far as I know, that MS wall is the "test wall". Legend has it that the art director could point to the type of brick he wanted and they would emulate it. Many different sizes and textures going on there. Some of which were not even used. We do the same today with mocked up sections or rock and texture, so it makes sense that it was created for that purpose. Good trivia hunting!

Matt McKim worked on the faux granite Fantasmic! Espanade at Disneyland and I think it's his retro birthday 1764 that is in the keystone of the infamous "Laffite Catacomb" sealed arch to TS Island. A different crew led DLP.


Yes all that stuff has to be maintained. On my recent projects I've found it's cheaper and more realistic to use real materials where it makes sense. Especially in areas you can touch. All that scenic stuff is labor and has to be redone due to fading. Real bricks and rock don't fade. EPA laws have made Reds hard to hold in the UV. They have UV inhibitors you can add that will help.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yes all that stuff has to be maintained. On my recent projects I've found it's cheaper and more realistic to use real materials where it makes sense. Especially in areas you can touch. All that scenic stuff is labor and has to be redone due to fading. Real bricks and rock don't fade. EPA laws have made Reds hard to hold in the UV. They have UV inhibitors you can add that will help.

This is a big part of my issue with a lot of Walt Disney World, where fiberglass moldings are so common. They just lack the texture.

 

[Omnispace]

Since we have been talking about aging and patina on themed buildings I thought this would be interesting to share. I haven't been very fond of some of the Instagram-type filters that make perfectly good photos look worn and washed out, (or worse hyper-contrast). I already have boxes of vacation photos taken with my crappy Kodak Instamatic 110 (complete with Planet Earth personalization sticker) that are all washed-out and grainy -- why would I want any more of those? I honestly love looking for very high-quality photos taken back in the day where you can see the life in people's eyes and get a better idea of what living in that time was like.

But then I saw these photos on Alain's website and I was taken back by how much they transported one back to another time. The quality of theme at Disney Sea is already pretty incredible but I swear I was almost fooled by these since I often look at pics first and then read text later. In fact, some of these pics probably make Disney Sea look better that it actually is. It begs the question: are you designing for old as it appears in current times, or for the romantic quality of a fuzzy old image?

You can see more of Alain's pics here. TO THE PICS >>>>>

 

[Figments Friend]

-
That is a gorgeous image.
It looks like a painting, and not an actual real place...which is just a tribute to the skills involved in actually making it real!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

OK, this isn't the best photo to highlight the wall you're describing, but it gives you a sense of the look Tony was aiming for on his house exterior. (Thanks to my friend with the way better camera who took this photo at the CPHS tour of Tony's house in 2005.)

Which makes me wonder what the Cadillac Range in Carsland is going to look like after 10 years of baking in the hot SoCal summer sun.

Thanks for sharing the photo. Neat little effect.

I think they used a special long-lasting ceramic paint for the Cadillac Range/Ornament valley. I hope it holds up as the view is breathtaking.