Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Pixiedustmaker]

I don’t know if everybody’s already seen this, but there’s this great book (more like a collection of interviews, though 169 pages w/ tons of b&w photos) about Pirates that has an extended Marc Davis interview, as well as Marc Davis concept art I haven’t seen anywhere else.

Theme Park Adventure
Exclusive Interviews with Disney Imagineers: Marty Sklar, Tony Baxter, Bob Baranick, Disney Legends Marc & Alice Davis. Full Attraction Script Plus Hints of Changes to Come! Walt Disney’s Pirates of the Caribbean.

http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID500270.asp

There’s a great Marc Davis sketch of two drunk pirates in a boat that is over-filling with wine bottles, one of them is singing and has a torch, and the other is resting against a keg of TNT in the boat (which of course has a lantern on top of it) while he drinks.

Marc Davis talks about how the first drawings he did were of “real” pirates based on some research he did, plus he also had an interest in real life pirates having grown up in places like Galveston. And he also talks about the skeletons scenes basically being from the more realistic, pre-World Fair, idea for the walk-through attraction, if I am interpreting his comments correctly.

After the world’s fair Walt wanted the attraction to go outside the berm, and Marc Davis had to redesign everything, and he talked about sketching out each scene as they went along designing what would be the ride.

Walt had an idea about doing a book (real pirates and real stories) which utilized Marc Davis’s more realistic drawings, because he liked them so much. These realistic drawings Marc Davis did were used for the costume designs Alice Davis did, and as an inspiration for the gallery of historical pirates in the Pirates queue in Disneyland.

Of course, there is the story of Walt Disney being pushed through at least a part of Pirates, and the imagineers apologizing about how the voices weren’t synced, but Walt liked that it was like a “cocktail party”, and that each time through the ride you could pick out different tidbits of conversation.

 

[HMF]

It would not be that hard to string them together into a narrative even if it is loose. It's true that the show builds to a climax but in a way it's kind of a dud ending. You just kind of just head up the falls as they are drunk forever and that's it.

That was fixed in 1997, Then un-fixed in 2006.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I was told that the caves were there to get the boats all the way out to the show building and they had to fill them with something, so the skeletons were put in there.

Here's the Marc David quote I think might explain the skeletons (from the Pirate book I referenced in a prior post), (the he is Walt Disney).

"So he came and he said - and this is after I designed all these things underneath there - he said, "Put a building outside of the berm, and we'll ride to that." Now that nullified everything I had done underneath New Orleans Square. Everything I did there was out, so that's where the skeletons all came in. This was kind of a historical thing that was supposed to be kind of a magical thing as well. The whole thing narrowed down, and finally you got to the berm."

I am guessing that the realistic stuff, grottos, pirate walk-through attraction pre-World's Fair most likely involved pirate skeletons/caves, and that this historical/magical idea was repurposed when Marc Davis thought about using very similar caves and skeletons to get under the berm. Interestingly, the drawings on the walls of the queue were inspired by Marc Davis's original "realistic" pirate drawings.

I am guessing that the Pirates grotto (pre-boat ride), involved a beginning sequence of scene(s) which were pirate skeletons, to get guests in the mood of thinking about pirates of yesteryear. Then realistic displays of historical pirates. The same transition back to an earlier time, was repurposed for the Pirates ride we have.

It's true that the show builds to a climax but in a way it's kind of a dud ending. You just kind of just head up the falls as they are drunk forever and that's it.

Marc Davis had a similar appraisal,

"One thing was, the attraction at Disneyland - you finish the ride and then you have to rumble rumble rumble up this hill. In Florida, I did it so you got off at the bottom, and then you had a speed ramp you would hop on, and that took you right to the top, which I think was better."

I kinda of like the return to civilization part of Pirates with the added Depp scene at the end (Disneyland), though I am sure some here would disagree.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Pirates is unfolding in real time all around you to the point where you have to choose which branch of the story you will follow, so in a sense, it's reportage. You are the editor. That's why I love rides so much!

So, true. I love that on Pirates you can miss the big scenes, watch the clouds go by on the moon light sky above, or look at the small details, focus on the secondary pirates in a scene . . . and still have a great ride experience.

You look at the ceiling in Small World and it is black nothingness, and you look too closely at the plastic fish in Mermaid and the believability falls apart. I don't like rides where you're supposed to be looking at the whole scene like a movie, as you tend look at everything in a real 3-D environment, and focus on different aspects on different viewings of the same attraction.

Haunted Mansion uses a similar "choose your own adventure" approach for parts of the attraction, such as in the attic scene there are many focal points to choose from, similarly so in the graveyard scene.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

A Halloween Post.

Eddie, what's your take on all the Halloween maze attractions that proliferate around the southland. Do you actively go to any of them? Enjoy them? Do you like the theming, atmosphere, storytelling possibilities? They are so popular, and every year, they get more elaborate and gimmick-y (like going through the maze alone, choosing different paths, 3D mazes etc...).

I do love mazes and worked on one for the Carousel theater in Tomorrowland at DL. The maze was made of LCD panels that could appear solid at one moment and clear the next. Colors were projected on them so as the colors changed you would be disoriented. I was going for a rubics cube that you were inside of. The "drum" of the theater would rotate and reconfigure the maze while you were exploring it. How? the rotating maze would index with the middle stage area and doors could open for you to enter that zone (flattened to the floor level) so you never knew what door would line up with any given maze exit. and then the correct path proceeded up the escalator to the upper level. There were also paths that were shorter that sent you to the outer edge of the carousel and you had to try to board again. On the upper level the maze continued and there was a viewing area with an open ceiling so parents could see their kids below. It was a fun concept to explore.

My take is that for years Knott's was the only major park doing this and pretty much pioneered the idea with it's Haunt, and now the format has become very common in the market and Universal may have taken the crown. Working there, it was really offensive to me that they left the gore displays up during the day so unsuspecting tourist families would experience the Ghost Town that way thinking that was Knott's all the time. Whatever. We did not design the mazes or any of that as it was done by the Entertainment and Decorating departments.

Walk thru mazes with live talent seem to work well in these events, but it is interesting that few parks look to build walk thrus as attractions. My first projects were walk thrus (Six Flags Power Plant) and they have different characteristics and rules than rides. For big parks with high capacity demands they generally don't work that well. If they are really good, no one moves through it quickly enough, and if its not that interesting, they race through. For Halloween there are many of them and so as a whole they work well. You also have people that scare you in and out of them to a degree, so the talent keeps it moving. I like walk thru attractions as a storytelling medium very much as they are super intimate and first person. Museums and Aquariums have more walk thru style displays and they seem to work great. The expectation is that you are there to linger and read plaques, etc. so they flow well for the most part.

I do not attend Halloween Events or celebrate it, as it conflicts with my Bible based sensibilities.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

I do love mazes and worked on one for the Carousel theater in Tomorrowland at DL. The maze was made of LCD panels that could appear solid at one moment and clear the next. Colors were projected on them so as the colors changed you would be disoriented. I was going for a rubics cube that you were inside of. The "drum" of the theater would rotate and reconfigure the maze while you were exploring it. How? the rotating maze would index with the middle stage area and doors could open for you to enter that zone (flattened to the floor level) so you never knew what door would line up with any given maze exit. and then the correct path proceeded up the escalator to the upper level. There were also paths that were shorter that sent you to the outer edge of the carousel and you had to try to board again. On the upper level the maze continued and there was a viewing area with an open ceiling so parents could see their kids below. It was a fun concept to explore.

Sounds like an interesting idea! Far more entertaining than what Innoventions ultimately devolved into. I wish something like this was available somewhere.

My take is that for years Knott's was the only major park doing this and pretty much pioneered the idea with it's Haunt, and now the format has become very common in the market and Universal may have taken the crown. Working there, it was really offensive to me that they left the gore displays up during the day so unsuspecting tourist families would experience the Ghost Town that way thinking that was Knott's all the time.

Count me in on that complaint! I'm not into Scary Farm or haunts of any stripe, mostly for health reasons (high startle response combined with cataplexy), so this time of year, I only go to Knotts during the day. And seeing the Scary Farm displays up during non-Haunt hours, IMHO, is bad show. I understand the expense of taking stuff down for daytime operation then putting it back up again before Haunt. But it's not fair to families with young kids who would otherwise be bothered by these sets and props.

I like walk thru attractions as a storytelling medium very much as they are super intimate and first person. Museums and Aquariums have more walk thru style displays and they seem to work great. The expectation is that you are there to linger and read plaques, etc. so they flow well for the most part.

Which is why having museum-like queues that tell an immersive, detailed story are so frustrating! I want to linger and understand the tale and simply marvel at the theming, like IJA's queue @ DL. But impatient kids behind me don't want to wait, keep pushing me to speed up, and then completely block my view of the show as I let them pass by me.

I would imagine that interactive queues are even more problematic, unless the line is really s-l-o-w, like the non-FastPass standby line. How designers successfully manage this balancing act is beyond me.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Sleeping Beauty Castle is my favorite walk thru at Disneyland, but on a busy day you can forget trying to see anything or enjoy the scenes. Like you say, you begin to feel guilt or pressure to move on by other guests that cannot see the display because the windows are so small, yet take 30 seconds or more to cycle their effects. Walk thrus are really tough.

The other kind of walk thru is where you have defined scenes of equal length and you pulse groups through them. The rhythm after a few scenes becomes obvious and repetitive so the momentum of the story gets lost in the cyclical need to move along as a group, filling and spilling each chamber.

 

[choco choco]

The other kind of walk thru is where you have defined scenes of equal length and you pulse groups through them. The rhythm after a few scenes becomes obvious and repetitive so the momentum of the story gets lost in the cyclical need to move along as a group, filling and spilling each chamber.

Scare mazes depend on things jumping out at you from hidden places, so a traffic jam of people inside ruins the effect, since you will be able to see where the scares are coming from based on the people in front of you. As a result, almost all Halloween mazes I know are pulsed these days, but it hasn't really helped. People tiptoe slowly through these mazes and pause before turning every corner, so only the first couple moments in the maze are isolated and effective, eventually you always hit backlog that lasts the rest of the way.

Some mazes have tried to solve this by having multiple chambers, successive groups are lead to different rooms which gives each pathway a little time to empty before another group comes in again. Knott's this year premiered a maze which required groups to split up and piece together clues gathered from separate points. This isolated everybody. It is so much scarier if you don't know where things are coming and you are alone. I thought it was a neat idea.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Scare mazes depend on things jumping out at you from hidden places, so a traffic jam of people inside ruins the effect, since you will be able to see where the scares are coming from based on the people in front of you. As a result, almost all Halloween mazes I know are pulsed these days, but it hasn't really helped. People tiptoe slowly through these mazes and pause before turning every corner, so only the first couple moments in the maze are isolated and effective, eventually you always hit backlog that lasts the rest of the way.

Some mazes have tried to solve this by having multiple chambers, successive groups are lead to different rooms which gives each pathway a little time to empty before another group comes in again. Knott's this year premiered a maze which required groups to split up and piece together clues gathered from separate points. This isolated everybody. It is so much scarier if you don't know where things are coming and you are alone. I thought it was a neat idea.

It is and is more like interactive theater shows. Read about this one that ran in LA for 9 years and was pretty legendary. Took place in a mansion with you as the voyeur.
http://mannydarden.com/wordpress/?p=129
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_(play)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

What do you all think of the new FL?

 

[stevehousse]

Haven't seen it in person yet, but it looks beautiful! I will say that I don't think anyone can truely judge this thing until The land is fully built with the mine coaster. I think a lot of posters on here underestimate the ride. I've seen the one mans dream exhibit where the mini scale project is and it looks amazing with the coaster in there. I wish people would stop referring it to an indoor barnstormer

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I've made early calls both for and against things based on photos and later seeing it in person had a different take. It's true that until you can experience it, you really don't know. Experiences are more than imagery, they are sensory. It seems that the Coaster is the heart of the area, so it makes sense to withhold final judgement on the place as a whole until you have that critical piece. The reports I've heard are good on the elements, and the production value appears to be pretty high (the level of Disneyland Paris). We won't know if it has the immersive power that WWHP has until it's done.

 

[Knothead]

I personally think most of the FLE looks great. Beast's castle however looks like a cheap plastic toy. The effect doesn't work at all from most angles. Before the walls were down, I could tell something was up with the way the castle looked, but I wanted to wait until I could see it from inside. Now that I've been in there, it seems to look worse. Several guests were talking about how cheap it looked, so I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. Now, how to fix it?

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Experiences are more than imagery, they are sensory. It seems that the Coaster is the heart of the area, so it makes sense to withhold final judgement on the place as a whole until you have that critical piece.

Eddie, you just touched on a main concern I have about the new FL Extension.

The coaster is indeed the heart of the area. And a significant chunk of the attraction is outdoors, correct? I'm concerned about the ambiance of the new area, with the coaster out front.

BTMRR, a similar coaster, is not what I would call a quiet ride. Even when trains run empty, the noise generated from just the vehicles in motion is loud. Now toss in 24 passengers who are screaming and/or hollering, shouting, etc... well, you get the idea.

What is that going to do to the peaceful forest setting of the Expansion? How is a coaster conducive to the setting of Belle's cottage next door? Or in harmony with the grand entrance to Be Our Guest at Beast's castle? The scenery with the rocks and waterfalls looks beautiful. But I suspect the coaster will tarnish that peaceful atmosphere, just as BTMRR in the quiet wilderness setting at DL does.

Putting the coaster out front, IMHO, was a mistake. I understand the need for its placement in that location, given the other additions needing to be next to the berm for supply access reasons (like BOG or Gaston's), or for footprint restrictions (like TLM). I doubt the coaster could have been placed in any other spot.

However... that's precisely the last place a coaster should go, in the most child-friendly region of the park! This area should be the most welcoming to the youngest guests at MK. Putting an outdoor noisy scream machine in Fantasyland doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

[janoimagine]

What do you all think of the new FL?

I think the detail is fantastic, minus the awful portrait of Phil Holmes (He clearly does not understand Subtle Nod's). The visual elements like the waterfall and trees, stone paths, and sound design from birds to frogs really place you in another time.

From what I could see of the BATB Restaurant interior it looks beautiful, the Little Mermaid Building and Que are true old school Disney, however the ride had great potential, and has great moments like when you go under the water ... but the story scenes felt a little disconnected and in some places the animatronics and props cheap and unfinished. In my opinion Nemo at Epcot looks better even though its older and has better effects than mermaid. The Que and building of the Little Mermaid are far better than the ride itself.

I am very interested in seeing the finished product, with the coaster and transition area to Circus Land in place.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Let the CASH be with you.

Lucas obviously read this thread and saw the post about changing EPCOT into a Lucas Theme Park and Resort and decided that selling Lucasfilm was a good idea. You are all to be congratulated.

Does this mean Leia will be joining the other Princesses?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, you just touched on a main concern I have about the new FL Extension.

The coaster is indeed the heart of the area. And a significant chunk of the attraction is outdoors, correct? I'm concerned about the ambiance of the new area, with the coaster out front.

BTMRR, a similar coaster, is not what I would call a quiet ride. Even when trains run empty, the noise generated from just the vehicles in motion is loud. Now toss in 24 passengers who are screaming and/or hollering, shouting, etc... well, you get the idea.

What is that going to do to the peaceful forest setting of the Expansion? How is a coaster conducive to the setting of Belle's cottage next door? Or in harmony with the grand entrance to Be Our Guest at Beast's castle? The scenery with the rocks and waterfalls looks beautiful. But I suspect the coaster will tarnish that peaceful atmosphere, just as BTMRR in the quiet wilderness setting at DL does.

Putting the coaster out front, IMHO, was a mistake. I understand the need for its placement in that location, given the other additions needing to be next to the berm for supply access reasons (like BOG or Gaston's), or for footprint restrictions (like TLM). I doubt the coaster could have been placed in any other spot.

However... that's precisely the last place a coaster should go, in the most child-friendly region of the park! This area should be the most welcoming to the youngest guests at MK. Putting an outdoor noisy scream machine in Fantasyland doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Do you think the Matterhorn is off putting to small kids with the roar of the snowman and the screaming riders? Alice faces it and so does Storybookland and it did not seem to be a negative. It's the backdrop to Fantasyland. I get the sonic argument with the screaming being discordant to the look, but maybe the area needed energy. Again, we have to wait and see what it feels like, maybe you are right.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Do you think the Matterhorn is off putting to small kids with the roar of the snowman and the screaming riders? Alice faces it and so does Storybookland and it did not seem to be a negative. It's the backdrop to Fantasyland. I get the sonic argument with the screaming being discordant to the look, but maybe the area needed energy. Again, we have to wait and see what it feels like, maybe you are right.

I thought about that, because you can hear the screams and the Yeti roar. That being said, I feel the mine train coaster comparison to Matterhorn isn't correct.

The bobsled track is still mostly inside the mountain, and it's a wild mouse with smaller cars, i.e., less noise per vehicle. This mine train coaster is more akin to BTMRR. It will have longer, heavier trains, where more of the track sits outside the show building than inside, and in closer proximity to the walkways than the bobsled track in Fantasyland. That's the troubling part. This is essentially BTMRR with a fairy tale wrapper. Not sure it's the right setting.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As you say, it may not be the right dynamic. My sense is that all those princess "meet and greet" experiences are nice, but they have felt the need to have something agro looking to appeal to boys and that was it. They could have made it more indoors. Gadget's Go Coaster is probably what they imagined from a noise standpoint. We will have to see what that boardwalk dynamic does to the quaint little hamlet.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I've made early calls both for and against things based on photos and later seeing it in person had a different take. It's true that until you can experience it, you really don't know. Experiences are more than imagery, they are sensory. It seems that the Coaster is the heart of the area, so it makes sense to withhold final judgement on the place as a whole until you have that critical piece. The reports I've heard are good on the elements, and the production value appears to be pretty high (the level of Disneyland Paris). We won't know if it has the immersive power that WWHP has until it's done.

The big advantage that WWHP has, and Hogsmeade in particular, is the the area is already a "place" before the "place making" construction began, (at least in terms of the films and being a place in the books). Similarly, Radiator Springs existed before Carsland, so there is that extra "wow" of seeing something that you, as a fan, would love to see brought to life.

Belle's village, and the Beast's castle, works very well, IMHO, because these are places we can remember from the film, and this brings that added excitement. Though they are not, obviously, 100% faithful recreations from the film. Mermaid's queue is somewhat of a departure from the film, IMHO, and while the rockwork is good, it's not an instantly recognizable place from the film that people want to go . . . being on the shore low-tide in front of Eric's castle. And with shipwrecks that weren't struin in front of Eric's castle like that in the film.

Similarly, with 7DMT, the attraction is attempting place making for a place which, while beautiful, might not really exist that way in the film, and/or fans aren't daydreaming of visiting the dwarfs mine.

Of course, some lands like Grizzly Gulch, can have a medium amount of details and entertain, but they might not get the WWHP fans who when the first saw the land wanted to live there rather than in the real world. FLE has some nice moments with BoG, but I don't think anybody will be gushing over how wonderful it is and not wanting to leave. . .

With StarWarsland, something similar to that could happen.