Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[trs518]

I always find it interesting when someone builds a very unique house, or in this case mansion.

http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012...ks-like-it-came-fr/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000058&

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

For actual current experience, no. One can't beat five classic dark rides and a myriad of other offerings over WDW's abandonedland.

That's for sure.

Disneyland has 5 classic dark rides, Mr. Toad, Peter Pan, Snow White, Pinocchio, Alice, or 5 1/2 if you count Pooh over in Critter Country.

Magic Kingdom's Fantasyland has Peter Pan, and a second-best version of Pooh (when compared to Tokyo). With Ariel's Grotto, ETwB, and the Princess Fairytale Hall, and possibly Tangled M&G, it seems MK is going heavy on the meet and greets over rides.

I don't feel Mermaid is as satisfying as classic dark rides as it more of a "display" type ride, in the vein of Main Street window displays where you've got a couple of the big scenes, and not that feeling you are on an adventure.

Sadly, an emporium window featuring Ariel looked better than the ride, with the nice blue background and real seaweed/sea plants, as opposed to metal cut outs. Check out the sea snails, they've each got different "personalities", as opposed to the carbon copy dancing turtles and duplicate plastic animals in the ride.

I kind of think FLE needs a Beauty and the Beast dark ride with LPS technology, or something else special, and a couple more dark rides. In terms of quality/charming attractions, Disneyland's Fantasyland has a lot more offerings.

Though Belle's village looks great, I think that this area of the park should have been built with expansion in mind. Some of the rides in Disneyland utilize a second floor due to space issues, i.e. Alice running above Toad, I think it would have made sense to build a Belle's village with restaurants/ETwB on the first floor, and then build a second floor which could accomodate a ride or two. If they never used the space for a ride, then it could be used as storage space, or even office space, but at least the option would be there.

I think they made a mistake by making Mermaid and Dumbo so different in terms of looks. I think the nice medieval-ish/renaissance? theme of Belle's village could have been extended through FLE, and the rides could have been suited to this. The big upside during the holidays is that they could decorate this area and add snow and it really would have an amazing vista. Mermaid aside, they could have put in a Brave dark ride, a Tangled dark ride, and a lot of others which would have matched Belle's theme which I think is the superior theme/heart of the area.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Compare the 'no rust anywhere' design of 20k with the 'shipwreck of Mermaid. The dirt and filth of Belle's village with the 'paint not even dry yet' perfection of the Bavarian houses in the original FL. The pristine surroundings of Cinderella Castle with the ruins leading up to Beast's castle.

This then all leads to the strange and fascinating conclusion that the literal FL is impervious to wear and tear and old age such as can only happen in a cartoon world. Whereas the cartoon FL is subjected to all the wear and tear, all the deterioration and destruction and death of the real world.

I also wonder about the realism of FLE, especially Mermaid's exterior queue realism vs. the overly (IMHO) cartoony look of the inside. The outside of Mermaid looks like "Ariel's Final Apocalypse" or something, given the "filth" on Eric's castle and the shipwreck, and the inside utilizes plastic fish/sea animals that are obvious 3-D characterizations of stuff from the film.

Didn't know that they put some "muck" on Belle's village, personally I love looking at photos of this part of FLE, though I do sense that they used the more "cartoony" version, vs. Disneyland's pristine little village look.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Sadly, an emporium window featuring Ariel looked better than the ride, with the nice blue background and real seaweed/sea plants, as opposed to metal cut outs. Check out the sea snails, they've each got different "personalities", as opposed to the carbon copy dancing turtles and duplicate plastic animals in the ride.

Ouch!

The different personality snails really hits home.
Also, notice the fish on the left has got Ariel's orginal 'ice cone' hair!

Are you on to something? Do Disney parks nowadays devote more attention to detail in window shops that they do in rides?

I think the nice medieval-ish/renaissance theme of Belle's village could have been extended through FLE, and the rides could have been suited to this.

What, you mean a FL themed like a large mediaeval village, extended throughout, with dark rides? Why didn't WDW ever think of that?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Didn't know that they put some "muck" on Belle's village, personally I love looking at photos of this part of FLE, though I do sense that they used the more "cartoony" version, vs. Disneyland's pristine little village look.

Oh, the repurposed area of FL looks good already. Real quality, high production value.

I do get the feeling that it is what you'd get if you'd let Joe Rohde design a FL. High on detail, specific in detail, an 'authentic' setting, short in substance, and rides that are 'close, but no cigar'.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Ouch.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Oh, the repurposed area of FL looks good already. Real quality, high production value.

I do get the feeling that it is what you'd get of you'd let Joe Rohde design a FL. High on detail, specific in detail, an 'authentic' setting, short in substance, and rides that are 'close, but no cigar'.

I'm not a fan of super fast roller coasters, but I liked EE, and I think the attraction is a big hit with guests given that they can't shut it down for an extended period to fix the Yeti. (Which if I recall is pretty close to ground level being at the very end of the ride.)

According to his wiki page, he worked on the Disneyland Fantasyland refurb, and on the Norway Pavilion. I think both of these areas influenced Belle's area in FLE. There is an expansion pad behind of the Belle's village, in fact, the area looks like it was almost built with the idea of doing a Beauty and the Beast ride at some point. The fact that they didn't put one in should reflect more on the money men, and less on the designers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Rohde

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

MK's vintage Fantasyland over DLP's? Not that I'm invalidating your opinion, but I do not know if you've been to DLP. I've been twice and going again in January. It's stunningly gorgeous. (But Frontierland is my favorite!)

 

[The Empress Lilly]

MK's vintage Fantasyland over DLP's? Not that I'm invalidating your opinion, but I do not know if you've been to DLP. I've been twice and going again in January. It's stunningly gorgeous. (But Frontierland is my favorite!)

I visit Paris about monthly. The city is one of my great loves. What's more, my French girlfriend lives within cycling distance of DLP, to which I, needless to say, take many day visits.
Lucky me, can't complain.

To me, my favourite is Adventureland. There's real atmosphere and exploration there.

I know it is considered blasphemy, and that I'm in the minority, but I'm really not that enchanted by DLP's FL. It is too cartoony for my liking. And it is too open. I prefer the feeling of being in a town, as in the MK. Instead of DLP's one row of buildings on one side next to a wide open area on the other.
There are some real gems though. The dragon can't be beat, the storybook canal boat is really quite lovely. And it has SW and Pinocchio darkrides!!

 

[KevinYee]

Eddie, I for one would have loved to see Plectu's. A real missed opportunity.

New Fantasyland "works" for me. It's the harmony of elements, not one in particular, that makes or breaks the soup, and in this case, it seems to work. You feel like you're in a medieval French setting that includes both mermaid and beast elements.

Now, when Snow White (Germany-based) opens next year, that will change the dynamic. Horribly? not necessarily. The very successful Tony-led 1983 FL in Anaheim is Italy, Germany, UK, and France rolled into one. So it's possible we're overthinking things here.

The proof in the pudding is how it plays in emotions when you are there standing in the spot, and for me, it works. As well as TDS, frankly, which says a lot.

Sorry if I missed this earlier, but did anyone ask you about the organ in Pete's Silly Sideshow coming from DLP Main Street?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Eddie, I for one would have loved to see Plectu's. A real missed opportunity.

New Fantasyland "works" for me. It's the harmony of elements, not one in particular, that makes or breaks the soup, and in this case, it seems to work. You feel like you're in a medieval French setting that includes both mermaid and beast elements.

Now, when Snow White (Germany-based) opens next year, that will change the dynamic. Horribly? not necessarily. The very successful Tony-led 1983 FL in Anaheim is Italy, Germany, UK, and France rolled into one. So it's possible we're overthinking things here.

The proof in the pudding is how it plays in emotions when you are there standing in the spot, and for me, it works. As well as TDS, frankly, which says a lot.

Sorry if I missed this earlier, but did anyone ask you about the organ in Pete's Silly Sideshow coming from DLP Main Street?

I have no idea how to differentiate "French medieval" architecture and German medieval architecture when looking at villages and small houses. Anyway, I think that 7DMT will be mostly a "mountain", and Snow White's cottage will be hidden from view when standing in Belle's area as I think it will face Pooh.

FYI, something interesting regarding the "the proof of the pudding" phrase,

The proof of the pudding' is just shorthand for 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. That longer version makes sense at least, whereas the shortened version really doesn't mean anything - nor does the often-quoted incorrect variation 'the proof is in the pudding'. The continued use of that meaningless version is no doubt bolstered by the fact that the correct version isn't at all easy to understand.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/proof-of-the-pudding.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I for one would have loved to see Plectu's. A real missed opportunity.

New Fantasyland "works" for me. It's the harmony of elements, not one in particular, that makes or breaks the soup, and in this case, it seems to work. You feel like you're in a medieval French setting that includes both mermaid and beast elements.

Now, when Snow White (Germany-based) opens next year, that will change the dynamic. Horribly? not necessarily. The very successful Tony-led 1983 FL in Anaheim is Italy, Germany, UK, and France rolled into one. So it's possible we're overthinking things here.

The proof in the pudding is how it plays in emotions when you are there standing in the spot, and for me, it works. As well as TDS, frankly, which says a lot.

Sorry if I missed this earlier, but did anyone ask you about the organ in Pete's Silly Sideshow coming from DLP Main Street?

No.

Fantasyland is just that, Fantasy,and the '83 effort at DL is a melange of styles related to the stories and their origins. It's held together by a style that is inspired of the backgrounds of the classic features. To me the 1971 WDw F'land looks too much like restored areas of the real Europe you can see right now and too architecturally driven with little story in the details, but that's just me.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Eddie, one of the most interesting aspects for me of the Fantasyland Expansion is how it revealed such a stark divide in the different ages of Fantasyland's design. Both the 1971 and the 2012 versions of Fantasyland offer creative takes on the "fairytale village," but the execution and quality of theming is so vastly different that they feel almost like two separate lands - I would say they feel more like separate lands than established lands like, say, Frontierland and Liberty Square.

The expansion's extravagant theming raises a unique problem in that it reveals just how dated and cheap/plasticy-looking the design is in the Fantasyland immediately surrounding it. I don't know of any other Disney park worldwide where such a problem is apparent, or for that matter where new construction was immediately adjacent to design from such a different era (although parts of California Adventure's "quality inconsistency" come to mind in places like where Buena Vista Street meets Hollywood Boulevard).

Any thoughts on this? It makes one wonder if a "Fantasyland retrofit" is now necessary in the older Fantasyland to keep the consistency.

They have already been on it. I think every facade in FL has been touched up in recent years, and Philharmagic is getting the castle wall treatment on its facade as we speak. I also think that's a large function of the castle walls, too: block your view of the other side of FL. IMO, it's similar to how Contemporary and GF refurbed/are refurbing all of the public areas of the old resort prior to the opening of the DVC. Whether or not the festival theming is "savable" is another thing, but their rescue effort has been enacted.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

They have already been on it. I think every facade in FL has been touched up in recent years, and Philharmagic is getting the castle wall treatment on its facade as we speak. I also think that's a large function of the castle walls, too: block your view of the other side of FL. IMO, it's similar to how Contemporary and GF refurbed/are refurbing all of the public areas of the old resort prior to the opening of the DVC. Whether or not the festival theming is "savable" is another thing, but their rescue effort has been enacted.

Good to hear. I do believe there has been a more and less convincing execution of "Storybook" architecture over the years. In general,(not specific to WDW) this is what I look for or find. At times the whole "sagging roof" look has been used in an inconsistent way where it affects the gable or top of the roof, but the rest of the facade is perfectly straight and betrays it's logic. There is a "doughy" quality to Storybook design (Gustaf Tenggren sketch below), and it even exists to a lesser degree in authentic European architecture. It's not threatening, but charming and intimate. Childlike. The materials like roof shingles and tile are shaped as well, not modern tile laid across sagging surfaces or computer generated shapes that make all the tile look like one piece. Sometimes the shingles or other materials are too thick or not in of themselves in scale with the overall facade. "Aging" is sometimes applied like margarine, instead of having a logic to it's weather or distress, becoming a wholesale solution to a lesser effect. Another thing that happens pretty often is the proportion of the columns and beams on some buildings being too thick or vertical compared to the more delicate elements, making them look "applied" versus organic to the structure.

Look at this sketch from Pinocchio and you'll notice how all surfaces slave to this look and overall sense of motion. Sidewalks in the real world cannot be this uneven and doorways have to conform for code purposes, but you can still create that seamless feel. I think 1983's DL FL is pretty consistent in this way. The styles and scale facade to facade are all over the map, but they did well in capturing the storybook look as a land. SB Castle is also good in that way. Especially the first 15 feet and the textures.

Outside projects capture it extremely well and in some cases better than Disney. Harry Oliver is my favorite designer in this style,and the 1920's was the golden age of this look. Carmel has even more of it. Here's some good and bad examples out there in the wild. http://www.thepastwhispers.com/Storybook.html Just my two cents.

Set Designer Harry Oliver's 1922 Tam O' Shanter in Glendale and one of Walt's favorite places to eat. No doubt he was inspired by this that you could make his cartoons "come alive" in the real world. Every detail is consistent. Nothing out of a catalog here except an umbrella. Nothing appears perfectly vertical.

 

[ChrisFL]

Eddie, quick question about Mission:Space. I often hear that the original premise was to be based on the Mission To Mars movie, but it didn't do well enough in the box office. Is that true?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, quick question about Mission:Space. I often hear that the original premise was to be based on the Mission To Mars movie, but it didn't do well enough in the box office. Is that true?

Not really. The ride was developed prior to the movie but the final media was done later after I quit in 1999, there may have been discussions about that, but I was not there. There was a move to make more use of the G forces so slingshotting out to mars became a bigger part of the show. Originally we were out at the ISS and threatened by space debris, but that changed to a Mars journey.
I know the pre-show benefitted from the props.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

This image was on another website (forgot who had it or I'd credit them), but given all of the discussion we've had about EPCOT as a Lucasfilm Resort including a Death Star SSE, this seems appropriate for a good laugh. Looks cool to me!

 

[stevehousse]

I do like the park Epcot, but wonder how amazing it would be to have future world pavilions themed to different kinds of Star Wars technology and then world showcase themed to different Star Wars planets throughout the galaxy!

 

[HMF]

This image was on another website (forgot who had it or I'd credit them), but given all of the discussion we've had about EPCOT as a Lucasfilm Resort including a Death Star SSE, this seems appropriate for a good laugh. Looks cool to me!

View attachment 28253

Leave a Legacy can be re-themed as a memorial to the population of Alderaan. Seriously, though I love Star Wars and I love Epcot. However, I would not love them together.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

We would then build another EPCOT elsewhere on the property that would be the future city that Walt intended to be. Maybe a hotel or resort if a real city presented too many issues.