Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Pixiedustmaker]

We do that already. We imitate and recreate styles at will. People all want to live in their modern little tiny towns themed to some way back time.

That doesn't advance art or civilization.

Here is something to remember when addressing style. When Gothic was created it was the highest modern expression of art and technology. Same can be said for any style, when implemented they were the 'modern' of the time.

By replicating we aren't advancing.

I would argue that style is sort of independent of advancing building technology (if that is what you are talking about) as obviously you can build a Tudor mansion that is green, built with recycled/repurposed materials, and which is visually pleasing.

One example of post-modernism architecture is the Swan & Dolphin Resort at WDW, which is a type of architecture that can, "startle, surprise, and even amuse." I would argue that the Swan & Dolphin attempted to be hip, was avant-garde, and sort of "failed" in that, IMHO, it is somewhat of an ostentatious eyesore.

http://architecture.about.com/od/20thcenturytrends/ig/Modern-Architecture/Postmodernism.htm

The Grand Floridian is much more intimate, warm and inviting, and I think has stood the test of just years when compared to the Swan & Dolphin.

Sure, it makes sense to experiment with different architectural styles, but I think that the modern landscape is dotted with experiments in post-modernism which are eyesores. Organic type buildings that Eddie proposes would, IMHO, stand the test of time better as they would borrow from natura beauty which is all around us, and we are sort of hardwired to see as beautiful.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

To me, Tomorrowland has never been the solution, it is the inspiration. Monorails and Peoplemovers are partial solutions as they inspire you to fill in the rest. So my point with the printed, elegant structures is that you could inspire people to think beyond the typical into the surreal and that beauty could be both organic and structural using technology.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

Wow. You learn something everyday. Next thing I'll find out that the Indy vehicles don't really go backwards before being crushed by the boulder and it some sort of trick with the floor.

Well the walls actually telescope in that scene, but same difference. Cars moving backwards in that ride would cause it to automatically e-stop. Of course I'm assuming you knew that because I'm pretty sure your post was sarcasm.

 

[Alektronic]

Well the walls actually telescope in that scene, but same difference. Cars moving backwards in that ride would cause it to automatically e-stop. Of course I'm assuming you knew that because I'm pretty sure your post was sarcasm.

Are you talking about a RV e-stop or a ride e-stop? They can actually travel backwards a little with no problems.

 

[NoChesterHester]

I would argue that style is sort of independent of advancing building technology (if that is what you are talking about) as obviously you can build a Tudor mansion that is green, built with recycled/repurposed materials, and which is visually pleasing.

One example of post-modernism architecture is the Swan & Dolphin Resort at WDW, which is a type of architecture that can, "startle, surprise, and even amuse." I would argue that the Swan & Dolphin attempted to be hip, was avant-garde, and sort of "failed" in that, IMHO, it is somewhat of an ostentatious eyesore.

http://architecture.about.com/od/20thcenturytrends/ig/Modern-Architecture/Postmodernism.htm

The Grand Floridian is much more intimate, warm and inviting, and I think has stood the test of just years when compared to the Swan & Dolphin.

Sure, it makes sense to experiment with different architectural styles, but I think that the modern landscape is dotted with experiments in post-modernism which are eyesores. Organic type buildings that Eddie proposes would, IMHO, stand the test of time better as they would borrow from natura beauty which is all around us, and we are sort of hardwired to see as beautiful.

I believe architecture is a permanent expression of art and culture. It states who we are and what we aspire to be. When future generations look back on us do we want them to say, "boy they did a lovely craftsman style."

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I believe architecture is a permanent expression of art and culture. It states who we are and what we aspire to be. When future generations look back on us do we want them to say, "boy they did a lovely craftsman style."

In a theme park, you are there to entertain and possibly to inspire. The architecture of reassurance, as Hench put it is there to make you feel good so it's mission is different in some ways than the real world. What Disney brought to the table was the notion of if the "real world" could be informed by his reassuring one, and vice versa.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

I believe architecture is a permanent expression of art and culture. It states who we are and what we aspire to be. When future generations look back on us do we want them to say, "boy they did a lovely craftsman style."

I have no problem with that. I love the Craftsman style. The Gamble House makes me weak in the knees. American Bungalow is a must read every quarter, even though I don't live in one. And I consider the Grand Californian one of the warmest and most welcoming of the domestic Disney Resorts, right behind its Southwestern cousin, Wilderness Lodge. All in part to the Craftsman Movement.

There are far worst things in our society we could be remembered for.

 

[ChrisFL]

I always wondered, could the WDW peoplemover just as easily go in reverse by switching the electromagnet signals? I mean to go in reverse without actually changing out any hardware?

 

[NoChesterHester]

In a theme park, you are there to entertain and possibly to inspire. The architecture of reassurance, as Hench put it is there to make you feel good so it's mission is different in some ways than the real world. What Disney brought to the table was the notion of if the "real world" could be informed by his reassuring one, and vice versa.

I agree. The post to which I was originally responding was about going to work at an office, not a theme park.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

To me, Tomorrowland has never been the solution, it is the inspiration. Monorails and Peoplemovers are partial solutions as they inspire you to fill in the rest. So my point with the printed, elegant structures is that you could inspire people to think beyond the typical into the surreal and that beauty could be both organic and structural using technology.

That's true, Tomorrowland is meant to inspire, especially MK's Tomorrowland with Carousel of Progress and the People Mover. I would agree that beautiful orangic structures would be inspiring.

I wonder if the new Iron Man/Star Expo ride will bring back some of that sense of optimism/inspiration to Disneyland's Tomorrowland.

Morgantown West Virginia has a "pod" type People Mover where you push a button and go where you want to, it's from the 1970's, but maybe that sort of interactive People Mover with a couple stations could work in a theme park if dressed up, such as with scenes and perhaps even some advanced features that allow the pod to moved in different directions.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I have no problem with that. I love the Craftsman style. The Gamble House makes me weak in the knees. American Bungalow is a must read every quarter, even though I don't live in one. And I consider the Grand Californian one of the warmest and most welcoming of the domestic Disney Resorts, right behind its Southwestern cousin, Wilderness Lodge. All in part to the Craftsman Movement.

There are far worst things in our society we could be remembered for.

The Grand Californian is very impressive, and feels like its been around for decades. My only gripe is that they built the place on prime real estate that should have been reserved for future attractions. Too bad they didn't take a page from Eddie's playbook and build an appropriately themed hotel as the entrance to DCA.

Such as if they made the Tower of Terror not just an attraction, but expanded the theme into a hotel that sits over the entrance? One side would have a view of BVS, and the other Disneyland across the esplanade.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That's true, Tomorrowland is meant to inspire, especially MK's Tomorrowland with Carousel of Progress and the People Mover. I would agree that beautiful orangic structures would be inspiring.

I wonder if the new Iron Man/Star Expo ride will bring back some of that sense of optimism/inspiration to Disneyland's Tomorrowland.

Morgantown West Virginia has a "pod" type People Mover where you push a button and go where you want to, it's from the 1970's, but maybe that sort of interactive People Mover with a couple stations could work in a theme park if dressed up, such as with scenes and perhaps even some advanced features that allow the pod to moved in different directions.

Wow...that video is great. Thanks for sharing that. Cool system.

 

[flynnibus]

the routable peoplemover is what I've been advocating for ages as the answer to Disney transportation

 

[The Empress Lilly]

If the 'Spirit of EPCOT' were still alive in WDW (roughly, everything must be out of the ordinary, inventive, and entertaining) then the buses would be replaced by something like this:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If the 'Spirit of EPCOT' were still alive in WDW (roughly, everything must be out of the ordinary, inventive, and entertaining) then the buses would be replaced by something like this:

very nice! Can see them now!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Great, "must read" Marc Davis interview about Pirates. Especially about if it's intended to tell a story or not.

http://www.mouseclubhouse.com/Interviews/marc-davis/marc-davis-pirates.htm

 

[flynnibus]

Great, "must read" Marc Davis interview about Pirates. Especially about if it's intended to tell a story or not.

I get the impression that he was dismissive of 'story' because people would be want to seek the character links, development, 'who/where/why', etc. It's easiest to just say 'there is no story' then try to argue why things are the way they are. Obviously the attractions still follow a dramatic structure, and there seems to be a narrative in place regarding the transition of eerie to fun in HM.. and the excessives of the pirates.

What's your take on this Eddie? Is he saying its just random stuff from a common palette organized in a way that just worked... or is it just a way of pushing away people looking for a plot line with common characters?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I get the impression that he was dismissive of 'story' because people would be want to seek the character links, development, 'who/where/why', etc. It's easiest to just say 'there is no story' then try to argue why things are the way they are. Obviously the attractions still follow a dramatic structure, and there seems to be a narrative in place regarding the transition of eerie to fun in HM.. and the excessives of the pirates.

What's your take on this Eddie? Is he saying its just random stuff from a common palette organized in a way that just worked... or is it just a way of pushing away people looking for a plot line with common characters?

My guess would be that Marc came up with a bunch of funny gags after watching pirate movies and looking at research books. Short subject cartoons were a series of gags the guys submitted and strung together around a simple premise. There are ghosts in a house, etc. I was just watching the Auction scene in Errol Flynn's "Agains't all Flags" the other night. Looks like a very possible inspiration, same for The Black Swan and the Spanish Main. It would not be that hard to string them together into a narrative even if it is loose. It's true that the show builds to a climax but in a way it's kind of a dud ending. You just kind of just head up the falls as they are drunk forever and that's it. I was told that the caves were there to get the boats all the way out to the show building and they had to fill them with something, so the skeletons were put in there. I think he realized that rides are tracking shots and there are no closeups and no real editing. You cannot really hear or engage with dialog very well, so they become spectacles of action you are absorbing as a third person. I think it is an amazing way to tell a story by having you the viewer gather the information for yourself and conclude what is going on. More of a cyclical situation that you experience. Pirates is unfolding in real time all around you to the point where you have to choose which branch of the story you will follow, so in a sense, it's reportage. You are the editor. That's why I love rides so much!

 

[choco choco]

A Halloween Post.

Eddie, what's your take on all the Halloween maze attractions that proliferate around the southland. Do you actively go to any of them? Enjoy them? Do you like the theming, atmosphere, storytelling possibilities? They are so popular, and every year, they get more elaborate and gimmick-y (like going through the maze alone, choosing different paths, 3D mazes etc...).

 

[flynnibus]

It would not be that hard to string them together into a narrative even if it is loose

Its my interpretation, that there is that narrative acting as the guide in how to integrate these 'fun concepts' as you mention. When viewing those headline attractions (HM, POTC, WRE) it does seem to be something like..

1. Pick a setting/theme
2. Research/develop things that you find fun about that subject matter to build a portfolio of potential gags and scenes
3. Take those concepts.. arrange into a sequence of scenes that fits a reasonable progression and a narrative is set or discovered that fits that progression
4. Fill in the gaps and nooks and crannies with the fun bits left over or inspired by the scenes selected..

Ultimately there must be some sort of progression or narrative established to guide the designer (even if only in his own mind) to gauged what 'fits' or not. Its not a random mash-up -- just a loosely coupled sequence of events/experiences. In all of them there is the dramatic structure, and at least in HM and POTC, there is the evolution of taking from creepy/scarey to jovial/whimsical.

But I think people goto the extreme and take that lack of formal plot and continuity to mean 'no story'. There seems to be messages conveyed.. its just not a 'plot'

I do see an essence of parables and narratives in the attractions.. but its hard to gauge is that a byproduct of the arrangement chosen, something that evolved in the process of arrangement, or was it a conscious choice that influences the arrangement? To me, that is the real essence to the 'there is no story' arguments.

Its my belief that it's more of a byproduct (rather than the initial directive) -- but once seen, likely helped guide the final arrangements. Common threads get woven, connecting the experiences. But I imagine they develop as the gags are explored, rather than being set as the blueprint you start with. Maybe someday someone can interview the apprentices and get the real low down on how these progressed

It's true that the show builds to a climax but in a way it's kind of a dud ending. You just kind of just head up the falls as they are drunk forever and that's it. I was told that the caves were there to get the boats all the way out to the show building and they had to fill them with something, so the skeletons were put in there

Re: drunk forever.. isn't that just their 'happily ever after'?

Re: skeletons and POTC opening. Now this is where I don't put a lot of weight into all the 'time travel' and other purposes people advocate so strongly. These caverns were something of practicality.. like the stretching room.. their existence is out of necessity first, and just dressed up to fit the application. I don't see it being the other way around where someone says 'there purpose is to transport you back in time..'. Their purpose is to get you from A to B.. the 'time travel' in POTC is IMO a contrived excuse to mask the discontinuity between the bayou and the spanish main.

I think the atmosphere and 'emptiness' chosen in these scenes are is to help create a DISTANCE between your realities (from where you came to where you are going) to be that buffer to avoid those sharp contrasts that may lead to a conflict and crash of that suspension of disbelief within the guests. The use of drops are simply the 'fun' answer on how to change elevation.. no story element. They are just fun!

It appears to me the caverns would have been dressed up kind of after the common threads have been discovered. They chose to setup an eerie foreboding theme for the opening of the attraction, and populated the caverns with gags that fit that atmosphere. The end of the attraction just seems to be devoid of everything.. with the final scene in the queue building just being about bling and placemaking.. nothing more.

When it comes to the 'time travel' and other stuff.. I use this litmus test... if it were not for the Blue Bayou.. would the opening scene of POTC be the same? I'd argue no.. and that the scene selection is more for the restaurant than it is for the ride or its narrative.

Sorry this one rambled on.. but addressed several areas. I'd be curious on your take of how these things would have been arranged.. and if the 'connecting tissue' was the chicken or the egg.. or is purely interpretation!