Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Pixiedustmaker]

Trees were taken out of the hubs in Disneyland and Magic Kingdom for shows too. Disneyland's hub had these great big olive trees, some of which were moved to peripheral areas around the hub, (one was planted near the former plaza gardens), and some others Tony Baxter relocated to his house. Disneyland hub was replanted with much smaller trees, so as to not obscure the fireworks.

Besides putting some visual space between the castle and Main Street, the hub's trees also blocked competing views of the lands. Sadly, you can see Tomorrowland from Liberty Square in Magic Kingdom b/c of tree removal for entertainment.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

BUSTED! you miss Disney!

LOL. I miss doing things that interest me wherever they may be. It would be fun to do that much of Main Street in the original scale and style from the back side. Seems challenging and needs to be scaled perfectly to work. On the other hand, I've got to do things way beyond Disney in quality and scope because I was not limited by just being there, so it's a good tradeoff.

Right now I'm working as a design consultant on the Ten Thousand Year Clock!

http://longnow.org/clock/

 

[Eddie Sotto]

BTW. Big props to the WDC for buying the debt of DLP. Thank you Bob Iger. This breakthrough will allow more freedom to invest and operate the park as it has always needed. A new chapter has opened, and let's hope the world economy does not dampen the company's willingness to bring the quality and potential back.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com

 

[roodlesnouter]

BTW. Big props to the WDC for buying the debt of DLP. Thank you Bob Iger. This breakthrough will allow more freedom to invest and operate the park as it has always needed. A new chapter has opened, and let's hope the world economy does not dampen the company's willingness to bring the quality and potential back.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com

Thanks for posting this, I have been looking for info since reading about the possible buy out, looks like being a healthy alternative for DLP. Should be good news for the Paris resort. What effects do you think it will bring?

I've been reading these boards for a good few years now, rarely posted though, and only recently pick-up on this thread, it's took me a long time what with links n all but I finally got to the end. And boy am I glad I did. What great read, thought provoking, inspiring, interesting and fascinating whilst feeding my mind with some great insider insights.

Not only from yourself Eddie but everyone else who chips in with insider info, useful feedback and generely interesting chatter.

So hello and thanks to all involved.

I'm from the UK so I suppose you could call DLP my home resort, although ive spent more time at WDW in recent years, for me DLP is a beautiful park, your main street and the castle are just stunning. The Paris resort just seems to lack something WDW has, personally I think its the difference between the US and French cultures.

As a Disney fan It has made my day to say hi to you Eddie, myself and my family have spent many an hour enjoying your work, TDO could use your skills at the minute, and will continue to do so. I'm contemplating my first trip to the West coast next year so could end swinging by your place for a bite to eat.

Cheers for now.

 

[Rasvar]

Having just come back from DLR (where the Halloween cups have shown up but still plain napkins), one thing struck me about Buena Vista Street that really appealed to me visually. It was the lack of the straight line. Curved streets lead to changing views. I am guessing some of this was to accommodate the space and the original way things were laid out but have to wonder how much of this was done on purpose? Obviously, Carsland only makes sense to have the straight lines since that is based off the movie. DCA seems to be the only park that does not have the traditional "weenie" down a straight line view at some point as Carthay Circle is around the bend a bit. I'm curious if this occurred on purpose or if it was just a necessity of how the park was originally laid out? Even the original DCA had the Sunshine Plaza in that central position. Although, I was never extremely impressed by it. Animal Kingdom still has that long straight view of the Tree of Life once you get to the bridge.

 

[ChrisFL]

If Eddie and friends will allow me this moment to vent briefly.

I asked on the previous page regarding whether or not to share my imagineering ideas. Seems like sometimes fate will tell you which way to go.

I have been designing my own theme park plans since I was 12 years old...chronologically we're talking about 1990.

During that time, I created my own concepts for several attractions. Later, I found those same ideas being used by Disney and Universal. CyberSpace Mountain, Soarin', and Men In Black are all very similar to ideas I had back then. Not a big deal, I was too young to be an imagineer for real, but I did enjoy the idea that clearly my concepts were realistic.

Now, one of my other, smaller ideas seems to be utilized by another company, as posted by someone on another thread here:



It has led me to realize that the more time passes where I don't share my ideas, the more time others will eventually come up with similar concepts and take credit.

Therefore, I've registered a domain for showcasing at least some of my concepts. Thanks for the feedback from Eddie Sotto and RandySavage

 

[flynnibus]

@ChrisFL, well it is possible (and has happened many times in history.. even with extremely important concepts) to be conceived completely independently. By publishing things, you make them common knowledge. The only thing that really prevents is another entity trying to patent your idea, or directly claim the idea as theirs, but it wouldn't keep the concept or idea yours exclusively. That's why people are still protective of ideas. Where it gets messy is when you chose to selectively share the concept in private with someone, and that someone then goes and uses the idea without you. There, the concept was not public or common knowledge, and the discussion of under what pretenses and conditions were the concepts shared -- and that's where things become ugly.

So publishing stuff is a great way to get author credit for something - but alone won't make you able to license, or keep the ideas to your control alone. Copyright doesn't cover invention

 

[ChrisFL]

@ChrisFL, well it is possible (and has happened many times in history.. even with extremely important concepts) to be conceived completely independently. By publishing things, you make them common knowledge. The only thing that really prevents is another entity trying to patent your idea, or directly claim the idea as theirs, but it wouldn't keep the concept or idea yours exclusively. That's why people are still protective of ideas. Where it gets messy is when you chose to selectively share the concept in private with someone, and that someone then goes and uses the idea without you. There, the concept was not public or common knowledge, and the discussion of under what pretenses and conditions were the concepts shared -- and that's where things become ugly.

So publishing stuff is a great way to get author credit for something - but alone won't make you able to license, or keep the ideas to your control alone. Copyright doesn't cover invention

Yes I know, I am NOT implying at all that my concepts were somehow stolen or used without my permission, they WERE in fact done differently.

What I meant was that, as RandySavage alluded to, there may be a way for my talents to be noticed by companies out there who do design like I want to do. Publishing these concepts gives me hardly any control over them as intellectual property, my point is that my mind has changed about whether to keep holding onto them or not.

Also, regarding invention. Patents cover invention, but these days, thats not even very useful when China can copy your products and sell them anyway.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If Eddie and friends will allow me this moment to vent briefly.

I asked on the previous page regarding whether or not to share my imagineering ideas. Seems like sometimes fate will tell you which way to go.

I have been designing my own theme park plans since I was 12 years old...chronologically we're talking about 1990.

During that time, I created my own concepts for several attractions. Later, I found those same ideas being used by Disney and Universal. CyberSpace Mountain, Soarin', and Men In Black are all very similar to ideas I had back then. Not a big deal, I was too young to be an imagineer for real, but I did enjoy the idea that clearly my concepts were realistic.

Now, one of my other, smaller ideas seems to be utilized by another company, as posted by someone on another thread here:



It has led me to realize that the more time passes where I don't share my ideas, the more time others will eventually come up with similar concepts and take credit.

Therefore, I've registered a domain for showcasing at least some of my concepts. Thanks for the feedback from Eddie Sotto and RandySavage

They deserve credit as they actualized their version of the idea. I share your frustration and my only solace in seeing them happen and sometimes big, is that I was on the right track and that my ideas have potential. It makes me work harder to actualize. My belief is that ideas are like snowflakes, in that they are all unique and you have to reach up higher and grab them first and if not, they eventually land somewhere else and get made by others. Acting is more important than discussing or exposing. They are not yours or mine yet, they are just out there in various stages of becoming obvious. That's just my take.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Having just come back from DLR (where the Halloween cups have shown up but still plain napkins), one thing struck me about Buena Vista Street that really appealed to me visually. It was the lack of the straight line. Curved streets lead to changing views. I am guessing some of this was to accommodate the space and the original way things were laid out but have to wonder how much of this was done on purpose? Obviously, Carsland only makes sense to have the straight lines since that is based off the movie. DCA seems to be the only park that does not have the traditional "weenie" down a straight line view at some point as Carthay Circle is around the bend a bit. I'm curious if this occurred on purpose or if it was just a necessity of how the park was originally laid out? Even the original DCA had the Sunshine Plaza in that central position. Although, I was never extremely impressed by it. Animal Kingdom still has that long straight view of the Tree of Life once you get to the bridge.

I was at DCA weeks ago, and you can see the top of the Carthay from the Esplanade, and you can see it down Buena Vista Street, it seems to be kinda lined up like the castle, only, yes, BVS does loop around to the right of the Carthay with the Pig's Cafe.

BVS's curvature, I would guess, is largely dictated by the route that the Red Car Trolley travels, and hence a full "loop" like around DL's hub is not needed as the RCT doesn't make a loop in front of Carthay.

I think that BVS naturally channels guests to Carsland, for better or worse.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

As a side note, while Buena Vista Street is a great improvement, I was kind of surprised with the lighting choices made on BVS and the Pig's Cafe. Pig's Cafe has three big light sources (during the day):

1. These neat yellowish lights under some of the "booth" tables, and at the ordering station, and interesting stain-glass in some areas of the restaurant.
2. These other more whitish lights throughout the main dining area.
3. These skylights that look like they are made out of plain white plastic, the let through light that has a really bad spectrum, looking like old fluorescent lights.

I have to say that the whitish color of light from the skylights drowns out everything else, and sort of desaturates the nicer colors. With all of the stained glass, I can't believe they didn't go with stained glass-like skylights, to project a more cozy atmosphere, or at least go with orangish/yellowish tinted sky lights.

The pictures and the yellowish lights communicate a more intimate atmosphere, though the large dining area with horrible acoustics and bland lighting says something else. I was hoping for more cafe, and less cafeteria. I guess there is always hope for a refurb, at least to fix the acoustics, when the place is just half-full, it sounds like a high school band in there.

BVS looks nice at night, but doesn't really feel like the 1930s as there are these landscape lights shining on the trees, especially around Carthay. I know they didn't have these in the 1930's, so for me BVS looks less authentic at night.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

LOL. I miss doing things that interest me wherever they may be. It would be fun to do that much of Main Street in the original scale and style from the back side. Seems challenging and needs to be scaled perfectly to work. On the other hand, I've got to do things way beyond Disney in quality and scope because I was not limited by just being there, so it's a good tradeoff.

Right now I'm working as a design consultant on the Ten Thousand Year Clock!

http://longnow.org/clock/

Woah, hold the phone—never heard of this 10,000 year clock and "Long Now Foundation". Check out what they said about their plan to inscribe nickel discs with ultra-microfiche of important documents:

"What kind of information should go into a very long term archive? One can imagine many possibilities: A collection of the world's greatest literature, known cures for the diseases that plague humanity, blueprints for recreating major technology... all of these would be appropriate in a collection we might like to leave for future generations to come centuries, even millennia hence."

Blue prints for "recreating" major technology? Like if the planet suffers through a third World War and we're all bombed back to the stone age? As long as the internet keeps going, we're going to have a whole lot information for a whole long time.

I can see the 10,000 year old clock as being a tourist spot, but I'm not sure how the clock will encourage long term thinking on the scale of centuries, or longer. We see evidence of geological time around us all the time, in the mountains and during rare astronomical events.

Does sound like a cool project to be part of . . .

 

[stevehousse]

Eddie, this only pertains to when you were actually working for Disney. Out of all the ideas and concepts of "would be attractions" which was your top choice for becoming a reality? Also which project was your least favorite that you didn't want to see put in a park?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Woah, hold the phone—never heard of this 10,000 year clock and "Long Now Foundation". Check out what they said about their plan to inscribe nickel discs with ultra-microfiche of important documents:

"What kind of information should go into a very long term archive? One can imagine many possibilities: A collection of the world's greatest literature, known cures for the diseases that plague humanity, blueprints for recreating major technology... all of these would be appropriate in a collection we might like to leave for future generations to come centuries, even millennia hence."

Blue prints for "recreating" major technology? Like if the planet suffers through a third World War and we're all bombed back to the stone age? As long as the internet keeps going, we're going to have a whole lot information for a whole long time.

I can see the 10,000 year old clock as being a tourist spot, but I'm not sure how the clock will encourage long term thinking on the scale of centuries, or longer. We see evidence of geological time around us all the time, in the mountains and during rare astronomical events.

Does sound like a cool project to be part of . . .

My phone rings, I pick it up.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, this only pertains to when you were actually working for Disney. Out of all the ideas and concepts of "would be attractions" which was your top choice for becoming a reality? Also which project was your least favorite that you didn't want to see put in a park?[/quote

I guess the whole full blown Jean Lafitte Pirate Island thing and maybe the talking Dragon in the Castle show. Small stuff compared to SciFi City for TDL, but they would have been fun to build. In retrospect, redoing the Tahitian Terrace was my least favorite outcome or having to pave the Riverfront at DL for Fantasmic!.

 

[AEfx]

Woah, hold the phone—never heard of this 10,000 year clock and "Long Now Foundation". Check out what they said about their plan to inscribe nickel discs with ultra-microfiche of important documents:

"What kind of information should go into a very long term archive? One can imagine many possibilities: A collection of the world's greatest literature, known cures for the diseases that plague humanity, blueprints for recreating major technology... all of these would be appropriate in a collection we might like to leave for future generations to come centuries, even millennia hence."

Blue prints for "recreating" major technology? Like if the planet suffers through a third World War and we're all bombed back to the stone age? As long as the internet keeps going, we're going to have a whole lot information for a whole long time.

So thought the Romans.

The internet is actually very fragile. Yes, the protocols and such are built to be "self-healing" in a way, but that's the connections between all the servers. The servers themselves that house data and make it up are susceptible to quite a few issues. This is especially true now that basically everyone Googles for everything - I don't bother to keep many bookmarks anymore, because you can always type into Google to get what you want quicker than going through some long list of bookmarks you saved. Or my browser just remembers when I type wdwm that I want wdwmagic. But if you take all that away - let's say, Goggle suddenly went dark - it would be difficult to imagine how things would be, at least in the short term. And in the long term? If something truly catastrophic happened? It all depends on electricity - and should that go - the Internet dies, instantly. In truth, the underground fiber optics that connect continents are also relatively few in number compared to what people may think - there are all kinds of ways things could go wrong.

I can see the 10,000 year old clock as being a tourist spot, but I'm not sure how the clock will encourage long term thinking on the scale of centuries, or longer. We see evidence of geological time around us all the time, in the mountains and during rare astronomical events.

Does sound like a cool project to be part of . . .

I think that's a bit optimistic for most people, because they don't think about that. They see the grand canyon and think "pretty!" not "wow that took many millions of years to develop". To most people, a century is a very long time. It's also something that as Americans we often have a hard time with - our country is simply not very old. Whereas something built in the 1800's is historic here, there are bathrooms in other countries that are older.

I mean, most people stop and stare if you remind them that we really are on a Spaceship Earth - that we are constantly rotating and revolving as a planet in the solar system. It's not something most people think about as they are running through traffic to get the kids to soccer practice so they can run in and buy a $5 cup of coffee at Starbucks while they wait.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I believe God will be running things in 10k years (Rev 21:1). But it's nice to have a clock!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As a side note, while Buena Vista Street is a great improvement, I was kind of surprised with the lighting choices made on BVS and the Pig's Cafe. Pig's Cafe has three big light sources (during the day):

1. These neat yellowish lights under some of the "booth" tables, and at the ordering station, and interesting stain-glass in some areas of the restaurant.
2. These other more whitish lights throughout the main dining area.
3. These skylights that look like they are made out of plain white plastic, the let through light that has a really bad spectrum, looking like old fluorescent lights.

I have to say that the whitish color of light from the skylights drowns out everything else, and sort of desaturates the nicer colors. With all of the stained glass, I can't believe they didn't go with stained glass-like skylights, to project a more cozy atmosphere, or at least go with orangish/yellowish tinted sky lights.

The pictures and the yellowish lights communicate a more intimate atmosphere, though the large dining area with horrible acoustics and bland lighting says something else. I was hoping for more cafe, and less cafeteria. I guess there is always hope for a refurb, at least to fix the acoustics, when the place is just half-full, it sounds like a high school band in there.

BVS looks nice at night, but doesn't really feel like the 1930s as there are these landscape lights shining on the trees, especially around Carthay. I know they didn't have these in the 1930's, so for me BVS looks less authentic at night.

Great post about being observant in regards to show lighting.

The great conflict in using the period approach faithfully is that when you just hang fixtures and add sconces, the lighting comes off flat and sometimes too dim, and not in a good way. You need more ambient lighting and so in this situation it's the Skylights that pick up the slack. As you point out, in this image at this time of day the room seems overlit and perhaps a bit flat. The stained glass adds lots of color but maybe it would have been better served in the skylights, perhaps in an amber? After looking at some of the framed pictures which look small in the space, it seems like an intimate idea or interior expanded to an unseemingly large scale. Columns might have helped break the space down a bit and bring more character down into the dining area. Maybe you are reacting to the small chandeliers that seem to be non statement?

I like your point about landscape lighting being the modern uplight format. Subtle but does have an effect. It's true and I did not pick that up right away. The fact is that you have to make choices as to if you want history or pretty. Lighting has become more sophisticated since the 30's and so beyond exposed bulbs there is not that much you can do to add the magic. I like hiding the lights in planters or behind facades, versus recessing them in the pavement.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Great post about being observant in regards to show lighting.

The great conflict in using the period approach faithfully is that when you just hang fixtures and add sconces, the lighting comes off flat and sometimes too dim, and not in a good way. You need more ambient lighting and so in this situation it's the Skylights that pick up the slack. As you point out, in this image at this time of day the room seems overlit and perhaps a bit flat. The stained glass adds lots of color but maybe it would have been better served in the skylights, perhaps in an amber? After looking at some of the framed pictures which look small in the space, it seems like an intimate idea or interior expanded to an unseemingly large scale. Columns might have helped break the space down a bit and bring more character down into the dining area. Maybe you are reacting to the small chandeliers that seem to be non statement?

I like your point about landscape lighting being the modern uplight format. Subtle but does have an effect. It's true and I did not pick that up right away. The fact is that you have to make choices as to if you want history or pretty. Lighting has become more sophisticated since the 30's and so beyond exposed bulbs there is not that much you can do to add the magic. I like hiding the lights in planters or behind facades, versus recessing them in the pavement.

Thanks for the more professional analysis, that is what I'm thinking when you said, "an intimate idea or interior expanded to an unseemingly large scale." I think amber skylights would have helped.

I've noticed these plain white plastic type of skylights on Main Street (I think mostly in Magic Kingdom), and in Magic Kingdom's Village Haus. I know that public space, of course, need a suitable amount of light, but the spectrum of light filtered through cloudy white plastic panels leaves something to be desired, IMHO.

I think they could easily light the inside of the Pig's Cafe—without skylights and much more cheaply as they are using incandescent bulbs in everything! Yes, LEDs look artificial without shades, but they could have come up with a stain-glass shade which would obscure the type of bulb, and since LEDs run on only a fraction of the electricity, they'd save hundreds, maybe even thousands, over the years.

I really dig BVS, and the outside of the Pigs Cafe looks great, but I sort of want the story to continue on the inside, in that I sort of expect the cafe to feel more intimate, and likely this would be accomplished via breaking up the interior space, and with different light choices. (And anything they could do to improve the acoustics would help as it was actually very uncomfortable for me at the Pig cafe due to the very poor acoustics, sounds like Grand Central all the time).

What is the Pig's Cafe if we interpret it in 1930s LA? Not a cozy cafe, a cafeteria? A diner type restaurant given the bar stools along the windows? I'm not sure how the pictures of performers fit in? Did these women perform at the cafe? If so, where's the stage?

Below is Village Hause in Magic Kingdom, they use fluorescent tube lights hidden by sheets of plastic, makes everything look . . . kinda gross.

Since Walt wanted to be remembered as a storyteller, I wanted to see a cafe where you could imagine Walt curled up in a corner as he leafed through library books of old children's tales as he decided which ones to make into films.

Below is a certain famous cafe in Scotland where a certain author dreamt up a story about a boy wizard. Wonder if there was a special restaurant/cafe that Walt frequented.

*Edit, found this, one of Walt's favorite restaurants, was referred to as the "Studio Commissary".

http://marcywrites.com/2011/12/tam-...aurant-is-waiting-for-you-d23-disney-dickens/

I think this (below) is the Tam O'Shanter Inn from the 1930s, interestingly, looks very much like Snow White and the changes made to Fantasyland in 1982, among other things.

From http://themerica.org/blog/archives/category/field-notes.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Woah, the ceiling and lighting in the Village Haus in WDW looks really bad. McNocchio.

It looks like one person did the elevations which are nicely themed and later someone dealt with the ceiling. Instead of doing the expected scenic sky being edge lit or something like that, they just threw in the panels. Like two different people worked on it, or the ceiling was changed later when they decided they needed more light or something. I imagine it must be deadly in there. The Village Haus in Anaheim is much nicer as I recall.

LED is a more efficient source to use but there are still lingering issues with them as to warmth, color and dimming. Real skylights would have been nice. Incandescent is still the standard emotionally in my opinion.

As your link points out, the Tam O' Shanter (Montgomery's Chanticleer Inn) was designed by one of the first Oscar nominated Set Designers, Harry Oliver (personal hero), who also inspired Knott's Ghost Town by building one of his own in the 30's that was visited by Knott.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Gulch

It's possible Oliver inspired Walt as well as Disney could see how his cartoons could be real world places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Oliver

I assume the "Pig's Cafe" is inspired by the old 1927 "Pig and Whistle" in Hollywood which has quite an exotic and warm interior. BTW- the lighting is nice too.
http://www.pignwhistlehollywood.com