Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[krash9924]

This goes way beyond any cups thread.

Prior to this episode, I interviewed at CAA in an attempt to create my own position there and leave WDI. My goal was to innovate new products that used both the celebrities and brands now repped by CAA. CAA could own a piece of the new innovation that resulted from this collaboration and my commission would include that. They did not "get it". So I went back and formed the concept studio at WDI and began innovating new products between Disney and it's sponsors, like Nestle and Kodak. In time, I was planning to show the results to CAA, but was shocked when Ovitz moved to Disney. I later told him the story and he was not aware of my plan but loved it and wanted me to continue pursuing it for him at the Mouse. Of course, at Disney you don't get anything for doing that. Oh well. A few years later after Ovitz departed, William Morris, Endeavor and CAA formed new departments to do what I had proposed as a service. One was headed by the guy I interviewed with at CAA that first turned me down, then he came to WDI with Ovitz, we worked together, then he went back to CAA and ran said department! That's Hollywood.

Wow, great story Eddie, Thank you for sharing your life experiences with us. Such an awesome read.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Shifting from cups to what's in them, I heard that the new "Be our Guest" Restaurant will sell Beer and Wine. That's a MK first. I wonder if we will see Blue Bayou and other sit down fine dining experiences shift soon? There is so much profit in Alcohol, I'm sure they are tempted as DCA as an unfair advantage.

 

[flynnibus]

Shifting from cups to what's in them, I heard that the new "Be our Guest" Restaurant will sell Beer and Wine. That's a MK first. I wonder if we will see Blue Bayou and other sit down fine dining experiences shift soon? There is so much profit in Alcohol, I'm sure they are tempted as DCA as an unfair advantage.

you just opened pandora's box! hundreds and hundreds of posts going on other threads regarding that.

Do you feel the tradition was still based on 'protecting the MK' or is it purely tradition for sake of tradition?

It's my belief that this was following a belief of Walt whose context does not really apply to modern guests and theme parks. You're not going to get gritty, wife beater wearing, pot belly carnies showing up because someone has a wine list at dinner. Or even because they sell a beer at a ODV cart. The landscape, society, and even admission model, have all changed since Walt instigated his policies. I don't agree it's a policy that is timeless, but rather a product of the context of his time and environment.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

you just opened pandora's box! hundreds and hundreds of posts going on other threads regarding that.

Do you feel the tradition was still based on 'protecting the MK' or is it purely tradition for sake of tradition?

It's my belief that this was following a belief of Walt whose context does not really apply to modern guests and theme parks. You're not going to get gritty, wife beater wearing, pot belly carnies showing up because someone has a wine list at dinner. Or even because they sell a beer at a ODV cart. The landscape, society, and even admission model, have all changed since Walt instigated his policies. I don't agree it's a policy that is timeless, but rather a product of the context of his time and environment.

In DLP I bought a can of beer and walked around Fantasyland. It was an awful experience. It just felt messed up drinking a beer from a can in line with a bunch of little kids. I'd never want the MK to erode to that. I remember seeing drunk people at Tivoli Gardens with Tony and thinking about how much better it was that we did not allow that instance to occur. Someone puked while we were in line. EPCOT has an older audience by nature and is more sedate, so I think you don't breed the kind of trouble you'd have in Tomorrowland with a dance band and beer.

Indoor dining with moderation and the ability to control how much you serve and doing so with food makes a big difference. Frankly, now that Disney is charging such gourmet prices for their food, they should have wine as it is a gourmet compliment to the meal. A Filet Mignon for 50 bucks with a Diet Coke? So I guess I support B&W in sit down environments where food is mandatory. Not walk up beer stands in the MK. No Dumbo Draft or Aurora Ale.

To me it's the issue of being a good "host". A good host at a party keeps things under control and thinks of the enjoyment of all their guests, not the few. You don't over serve. Your guests deserve an experience that will not be marred by drunks. Drunks also drive, swear, puke, flirt, and stumble. I worry that DCA with it's open cocktail bars and outdoor dance clubs (drink me?) will end up with "guest to guest" problems over time. If it was my park, I'd say it isn't worth it unless you are really careful about your motives and management. Theme parks are not places where you can easily cut people off. Thrill rides and booze equal puke. I do think with cheap AP's (15 bucks a month) that the audience at DL and has become the same as the county fair crowd. WDW is a vacation market and is much different.

The host takes on the responsibility of the safety of the rest of the guests too. They are not able to control conflicts for fireworks or parade viewing and crowd control for Fantasmic!, imagine people who had several beers or cocktails getting into it with lots of kids around. Language even changes when people have too much to drink. I'm paying too much to endure a drunk in line or in my face. If someone at DCA is bombed from their magical day, and falls on my kid and hurts them, the park pays.

 

[flynnibus]

Indoor dining with moderation and the ability to control how much you serve and doing so with food makes a big difference. Frankly, now that Disney is charging such gourmet prices for their food, they should have wine as it is a gourmet compliment to the meal. A Filet Mignon for 50 bucks with a Diet Coke? So I guess I support B&W in sit down environments where food is mandatory. Not walk up beer stands in the MK. No Dumbo Draft or Aurora Ale.

I agree - very different experiences for open carry vs dining. But would it feel awkward to have a beer with your bratwurst in a bavarion village? event sitting on a bench?

To me it's the issue of being a good "host". A good host at a party keeps things under control and thinks of the enjoyment of all their guests, not the few. You don't over serve

I concur - and why I don't like the night club setup at DCA. I don't believe that belongs in the park and should be off in a DTD venue... where it would be much easier to screen people as they enter the park. Keeping that atmosphere outside the theme park itself.

I'm also not a fan of the TL stage and DJ sessions/etc back there. Even without alcohol, I believe in keeping that outside the TL experience.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I agree - very different experiences for open carry vs dining. But would it feel awkward to have a beer with your bratwurst in a bavarion village? event sitting on a bench?

Beer and Brats go together and in isolation it's easy to see no harm, but again, it's the setting and the overall experience for everyone. I've been to Germany and were are lots of drunk people coming out of those beer halls. Look at how they had to limit beer sales at Baseball Games,a sport which used to be considered wholesome and family, but now they have lots of social rules. Maybe we are a society that can't go 10 hours without a cocktail to truly escape? Why not have some old west style slot machines and roulette in the Golden Horseshoe? People love to gamble too and it's period.

 

[ChrisFL]

I worry that DCA with it's open cocktail bars and outdoor dance clubs (drink me?) will end up with "guest to guest" problems over time. If it was my park, I'd say it isn't worth it unless you are really careful about your motives and management. Theme parks are not places where you can easily cut people off. Thrill rides and booze equal puke. I do think with cheap AP's (15 bucks a month) that the audience at DL and has become the same as the county fair crowd. WDW is a vacation market and is much different.

The host takes on the responsibility of the safety of the rest of the guests too. They are not able to control conflicts for fireworks or parade viewing and crowd control for Fantasmic!, imagine people who had several beers or cocktails getting into it with lots of kids around. Language even changes when people have too much to drink. I'm paying too much to endure a drunk in line or in my face. If someone at DCA is bombed from their magical day, and falls on my kid and hurts them, the park pays.

Eddie, I don't know if you saw but on youtube there was a guest incident in front of the Tower of Terror at DCA like what you're describing and someone on the other thread about the changes at MK mentioned it was also on one of those "world's dumbest" shows. He fought security guards for a good 10 minutes until he was finally brought under control.

That's another issue with modern times...before if someone puked at Disney, a couple of people might have a good story and MAYBE someone would be there to videotape it and show their family...now, its all over the internet within a few minutes...not good for publicity.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I don't know if you saw but on youtube there was a guest incident in front of the Tower of Terror at DCA like what you're describing and someone on the other thread about the changes at MK mentioned it was also on one of those "world's dumbest" shows. He fought security guards for a good 10 minutes until he was finally brought under control.

That's another issue with modern times...before if someone puked at Disney, a couple of people might have a good story and MAYBE someone would be there to videotape it and show their family...now, its all over the internet within a few minutes...not good for publicity.

I did see that, yes. It's true that you cannot contain these gaffes as they end up on Youtube.

 

[Jeanine]

It feels like just another brick what seems to be an increasingly dichotomized experience at the parks: There are playgrounds and meet n' greets for children, and alcohol for the adults/teens forced to be there with them.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It feels like just another brick what seems to be an increasingly dichotomized experience at the parks: There are playgrounds and meet n' greets for children, and alcohol for the adults/teens forced to be there with them.

Seems the only way to unite the two cultures is to serve Shirley Temples.

 

[dagobert]

In DLP I bought a can of beer and walked around Fantasyland. It was an awful experience. It just felt messed up drinking a beer from a can in line with a bunch of little kids. I'd never want the MK to erode to that. I remember seeing drunk people at Tivoli Gardens with Tony and thinking about how much better it was that we did not allow that instance to occur. Someone puked while we were in line. EPCOT has an older audience by nature and is more sedate, so I think you don't breed the kind of trouble you'd have in Tomorrowland with a dance band and beer.

You were allowed to take your can away? Last time the CM behind the counter told me that I have to drink it in the restaurant. I wasn't allowed to carry it way, which I think is the right decision. I don't have a problem with people drinking alcohol inside the MK park, but it should definitely not be allowed to carry it away, however I guess that's not so easy to enforce unless you put a CM at the entrance. I've been to DLRP several times, even on New Year's Eve and I have never encountered anyone drunk. The prices are just too high. Nevertheless I wouldn't mind if DLP stops selling alcohol at fast food locations. By the way even McDonalds offers beer over here in Austria. At food carts inside the parks, you can't get alcohol.

I enjoy having a glass of beer or wine to a good meal. Over here it's part of our culture and hardly anyone orders coke. I don't like coke and such products that much and so ended up drinking mineral water in US restaurants. I've spent half a year over there and noticed that many restaurants had a bar, where you could enjoy a beer or wine after you have eaten, but it wasn't possible to get one during lunch or dinner.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

You were allowed to take your can away? Last time the CM behind the counter told me that I have to drink it in the restaurant. I wasn't allowed to carry it way, which I think is the right decision. I don't have a problem with people drinking alcohol inside the MK park, but it should definitely not be allowed to carry it away, however I guess that's not so easy to enforce unless you put a CM at the entrance. I've been to DLRP several times, even on New Year's Eve and I have never encountered anyone drunk. The prices are just too high. Nevertheless I wouldn't mind if DLP stops selling alcohol at fast food locations. By the way even McDonalds offers beer over here in Austria. At food carts inside the parks, you can't get alcohol.

I enjoy having a glass of beer or wine to a good meal. Over here it's part of our culture and hardly anyone orders coke. I don't like coke and such products that much and so ended up drinking mineral water in US restaurants. I've spent half a year over there and noticed that many restaurants had a bar, where you could enjoy a beer or wine after you have eaten, but it wasn't possible to get one during lunch or dinner.

Good point. Europe is different as wine or beer with a meal is a cultural thing. I get that. In France, my experience in cafes where drinks are costly, is that people tend to nurse their drinks. The motive is not to down several to get drunk as it may be here. Drunk in public is a bit "declasse". No,I was not told I had to drink my Beer right there. Culture or not, what ever happened to pouring the beer into a glass or clear plastic cup (DCA does that)? An empty beer can being left somewhere is really degrading to me. Even Cokes in their native bottles only serve to remind you of how much less you pay for the same thing in the supermarket. That's another reason to have attractive themed containers, they generate higher perceived value and discourage cost comparison.

 

[ChrisFL]

Eddie, different topic...about us aspiring imagineers who have had ideas bottled up for oh, two decades or so but really would like to create a blog or website to share some of the more advanced things.

Obviously there's legal issues with non-disclosure agreements and current WDI techically can't view those types of things...but is there any outlet or avenue to share ideas on the web, besides the Imagineering sub-forum here for example?

I'd love to share lots of my concepts since they've been held privately for so long (and I don't expect to become an Imagineer in the near future), but still retain some creative control of the ideas.

Any thoughts that might be helpful?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well, not really. At least i'm not aware of that avenue unless you want to give up ownership.
Computer Pioneer Alan Kay once said "The best way to predict the future is to invent it". I'd rather see your time invested in trying to actualize an idea than just talking about it. Start small and work toward your dream, be willing to take detours along the way. I'm a self taught Imagineer with no higher education, so it did work for me but I had to be open to "surf the waves" that came.

 

[stevehousse]

I always wanted to be a Disney imagineer when I was younger! I have so many ideas stored in my brain! Do you know if Disney has ever taken ideas that weren't from with in the company or already employed by Disney?

 

[RandySavage]

Eddie, different topic...about us aspiring imagineers who have had ideas bottled up for oh, two decades or so but really would like to create a blog or website to share some of the more advanced things.

Obviously there's legal issues with non-disclosure agreements and current WDI techically can't view those types of things...but is there any outlet or avenue to share ideas on the web, besides the Imagineering sub-forum here for example?

I'd love to share lots of my concepts since they've been held privately for so long (and I don't expect to become an Imagineer in the near future), but still retain some creative control of the ideas.

Any thoughts that might be helpful?

Chris, I was struck by a story Eddie once told about being crestfallen when he first approached WDI and was told his ideas were "a dime a dozen" or "whatever you've thought of, we already have" or something to that effect. What I took from that story is this: ideas themselves don't matter as much as one's ability to practically implement an idea in the field (via clearcut areas of expertise like concept art, architecture, engineering, writing, etc.). With this in mind, I started sharing some of my artwork & ideas on a blog (in sig), taking the approach that I'd be willing to give up a certain amount of ownership, as Eddie said, if that meant getting noticed and a job in the industry. It's begun to work to a degree, as I've started getting job offers from a number of ex-WDI design shops in LA & China.

In short, I'm not overly concerned with 'giving away' ideas as I feel the law of convergent evolution means a lot of conceptual designers will come up with similar ideas. What really matters is how well one can communicate/implement those ideas. I would definitely appreciate Eddie's thoughts on this approach.

 

[ChrisFL]

Chris, I was struck by a story Eddie once told about being crestfallen when he first approached WDI and was told his ideas were "a dime a dozen" or "whatever you've thought of, we already have" or something to that effect. What I took from that story is this: ideas themselves don't matter as much as one's ability to practically implement an idea in the field (via clearcut areas of expertise like concept art, architecture, engineering, writing, etc.). With this in mind, I started sharing some of my artwork & ideas on a blog (in sig), taking the approach that I'd be willing to give up a certain amount of ownership, as Eddie said, if that meant getting noticed and a job in the industry. It's begun to work to a degree, as I've started getting job offers from a number of ex-WDI design shops in LA & China.

In short, I'm not overly concerned with 'giving away' ideas as I feel the law of convergent evolution means a lot of conceptual designers will come up with similar ideas. What really matters is how well one can communicate/implement those ideas. I would definitely appreciate Eddie's thoughts on this approach.

Very useful post...I've wondered about that. I am familiar with your work and it is very good. If you're getting job offers for that work, that is quite primising.

As an aspiring imagineer, I had varying interests in a lot of places, and that also meant that I didn't pursue the idea of being an imagineer as much as I could have either, doing other design areas instead. But ideas keep coming to me, and despite the story that WDI has already thought of everything possible, I'd like to think that I do have some concepts that are unique.

I'll consider that blog idea, thanks

 

[flynnibus]

Eddie.. I'm finally getting a chance to crack my DLP book, so be prepared for questions!

Can you elaborate a bit more on the concept the elevated train for Main Street? Wouldn't have it obscured so much of the views and overly dominated the site? I think it might be cool on some of the side streets or something.. but what were the concepts of how to make something so massive in terms of size and mass and have it not be 'train street'?

They also had one of your sketches about the museum of mechanical figures. As a fan of electro-mechanical toys and amusement.. this really fascinates me. Do you have anything you are willing to share in terms of your ideas for this concept? Did you envision actually filling it with authentic displays and working pieces? Was it to be a shop or walk-through?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie.. I'm finally getting a chance to crack my DLP book, so be prepared for questions!

Can you elaborate a bit more on the concept the elevated train for Main Street? Wouldn't have it obscured so much of the views and overly dominated the site? I think it might be cool on some of the side streets or something.. but what were the concepts of how to make something so massive in terms of size and mass and have it not be 'train street'?

They also had one of your sketches about the museum of mechanical figures. As a fan of electro-mechanical toys and amusement.. this really fascinates me. Do you have anything you are willing to share in terms of your ideas for this concept? Did you envision actually filling it with authentic displays and working pieces? Was it to be a shop or walk-through?

The Elevated Train was to be about the scale of the Peoplemover or the one at TDS, and to run over the sidewalk on the east side of the street. It would have served as a covering for the rain to view the parade and taken guests to and from Discoveryland. It is shown in great detail here...
http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2012/08/disneyland-paris-that-never-was-first.html

The Automatamericana exhibit was a second year approval (added capacity) attraction intended to further tell the story of Main Street in a comical way through animated dioramas. We wanted to recreate the Stores and Cinema on Main street in miniature and then animate the townspeople in funny situations to illustrate life back then. You free flow through the space and experience these tableaus in pantomime regards of language. It was partially inspired by the Mechanical Cabaret Automata then popular in Covent Garden, London. I was very disappointed to see no new attractions for Main Street in the second year.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The Elevated Train was to be about the scale of the Peoplemover or the one at TDS, and to run over the sidewalk on the east side of the street. It would have served as a covering for the rain to view the parade and taken guests to and from Discoveryland. It is shown in great detail here...
http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2012/08/disneyland-paris-that-never-was-first.html

The Automatamericana exhibit was a second year approval (added capacity) attraction intended to further tell the story of Main Street in a comical way through animated dioramas. We wanted to recreate the Stores and Cinema on Main street in miniature and then animate the townspeople in funny situations to illustrate life back then. You free flow through the space and experience these tableaus in pantomime regards of language. It was partially inspired by the Mechanical Cabaret Automata then popular in Covent Garden, London. I was very disappointed to see no new attractions for Main Street in the second year.

Awesome.

I finally get this elevated trolley concept after looking at historical photos, and the link Eddie provided. Had no idea they had this sort of thing back then. I think it would work aesthetically if some artistic license was taken and the track pylons were spaced out a bit and the thing didn't look clunky, but kinda fancy in a Mictorian type of way. Not a real big fan of the light green pylons used for the trolley track in Disney Seas—very industrial looking, whereas on BVS I'd want a bit more of a finished/fancy looking elevated track, as if millions were spent making something for a world's fair exhibit.

They could have the trolley go by second-story "apartments" and you could see animatronics reading papers, watching old shows on television or perhaps waving at the trolley. (Of course then we'd have broken effects threads and fans complaining that the "waving lady" above the Candy Store wasn't working all the time.)

Anyway, I can't believe they didn't use this idea for Buena Vista Street. Love Carsland, but BVS sure is quiet at night . . . sort of like a high end shopping district with a mission revival theme that is winding down. An elevated Trolley would sure liven the place up.

DCA has no train around the park, but why not have an elevated trolley station you walk under (similar to Main Street's train station), that travels around BVS, and makes a loop through Hollywood land, maybe even around Paradise Pier too.

The Red Car Trolley is just impractical. Goes too slow, and the windows look too small, making for a claustrophobic experience (haven't ridden it yet, but this is my impression). Would have been great to see BVS from above, but I guess the monorail track was in the way, and they'd have to make sure the sight lines were good from that height.

Wish they'd gone ahead and moved the monorail so it coasts by in front of DCA's entrance. The bridge doesn't work very well, IMHO. Would they ever spends the millions to do this? If they did, they could use the former bridge space to add more square feet of shopping space . . . BVS needs more of an attraction than just the low capacity Red Trolley.

Below is concept art of what, I guess, was going to go into Disneyland Paris. Very interesting. Love the jazz sign, still don't get why they didn't put a big Neon-ish looking sign on Carthay in BVS.