Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

The other fun thing to check out is the POV video of the new backwards/forwards Grizzly Coaster at HKDL. VERY FUN.
http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/

The "rustic" props although plentiful, seem to contrast with the near perfect, slickly executed buildings, and the rock work as good as it is, does not seem to culminate in the iconic "wow" of BTM, but having said that, they got their priorities right, as the ride seems to more than make up for those minor kints (it's tough to judge "wow" and rocks once you've been to Carsland).

Based on the rider's video, it looks like the coaster will be a big hit. We initially proposed and "backwards/forwards" Mine Car Coaster for Indiana Jones at DL and it was considered to be too much like BTM so you have the Jeeps. Not that problem here in HKDL. They seemed to have blended "Nature's Wonderland" Marc Davis-esque gags well, integrating AA Bears into a Western themed Coaster that has a backwards ride and a catapult finish. Seems like a combination of many good ideas. BTM for the 21st Century. Many things have changed over the years too. Look at how big the ride clearance envelope is for those mine shafts. HKDL got a great new addition that it really needed to amp up the energy. And they are just getting started!

 

[flynnibus]

The "rustic" props although plentiful, seem to contrast with the near perfect, slickly executed buildings, and the rock work as good as it is, does not seem to culminate in the iconic "wow" of BTM, but having said that, they got their priorities right, as the ride seems to more than make up for those minor kints (it's tough to judge "wow" and rocks once you've been to Carsland).

Doesn't it look too pristine tho? For a sawmill/mine area.. I would expect much more grime, disorganization, etc. Yet, everything is nicely placed, tilted up against the wall, organized, etc. While the wood has nice finishes - the place looks more like a science lab than a working man's area. (yes, the geologist's office area appears to be like a science lab (maybe he makes the explosives?))

The ride looks very fun and a great balance of tech, visuals, fun, and variation.

I really like the snapped wire effect at the top of the hill.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Doesn't it look too pristine tho? For a sawmill/mine area.. I would expect much more grime, disorganization, etc. Yet, everything is nicely placed, tilted up against the wall, organized, etc. While the wood has nice finishes - the place looks more like a science lab than a working man's area. (yes, the geologist's office area appears to be like a science lab (maybe he makes the explosives?))

The ride looks very fun and a great balance of tech, visuals, fun, and variation.

Agree. Felix Unger mining operation. The hard thing with props is they have to blend seamlessly with the background and vice versa. At Knott's we had the same issue when you have a new western themed building (which generally do not have much detail so it's all in the siding, aging, and the loose fit of the millwork) and then have to fill it with beat up antiques. One makes the other stand out unless you bring them all to a common texture and feel. There is a certain sense of contrivance you end up fighting with. Prop arrangement can be of the store window variety, or as a set decorator would do, which is to become the person using it and arrange as if a snapshot was taken in the life of that room.

 

[KevinYee]

Eddie, is it the DLP Main Street that has a cottage, brook, and bridge right in the middle of a shop? I recall this somewhere, and I don't think it was TDL.

If yes, can you say more about it? Any interesting stories in designing it, or hard choices to make?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Agree. Felix Unger mining operation. The hard thing with props is they have to blend seamlessly with the background and vice versa. At Knott's we had the same issue when you have a new western themed building (which generally do not have much detail so it's all in the siding, aging, and the loose fit of the millwork) and then have to fill it with beat up antiques. One makes the other stand out unless you bring them all to a common texture and feel. There is a certain sense of contrivance you end up fighting with. Prop arrangement can be of the store window variety, or as a set decorator would do, which is to become the person using it and arrange as if a snapshot was taken in the life of that room.

Thanks for the video of the ride, it looks great, and more than Big Thunder, you've got a visible explanation as to why "everything's gone terribly wrong" as opposed to a backstory about haunted mine trains that isn't explicitly explained.

Regarding the town, I actually like the look of it though some parts are more "pristine" than others. The jail looks like it is failing apart though, as do some other buildings,

There might be a cultural issue here as well, as in the U.S. we've got ghost towns and old west-looking stuff falling apart, and theme parks try to represent this, we sort of expect the aged look in Knotts and other theme parks. In Hong Kong, the guests might wonder why everything looks like it is falling apart. It actually makes sense for stuff to look new as if the town discovered gold they would build fast and it would be new looking, at least when the construction boom happened. The saw mill does look a little too pristine, but I don't get why they went with a sawmill queue for a mine ride anyhow. (Maybe the element of danger associated with saw mills, the saws have sharp "teeth" similar to bears I guess).

In the 2010 film, True Grit, a good chunk of the houses in town look pretty good, recently painted, while the shacks in the middle of nowhere are falling apart. I think it is good that the Grizzly Gulch town area looks kept up as it has to match with Mystic Manor in the background, though the "saw mill" could have been made to look roughed up having been built outside of town, and probaby before most of the town buildings were there as they had to get the wood from somewhere.



From True Grit

More True Grit sets . . .

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I guess in terms of talking about props, were looking at stuff like this, the tools look a little too neatly arranged, though they seem to match the surroundings. The stuff inside the cabinets looks like they just bought some old antiques and arranged them neatly.

Which is sort of staged similar to stuff in the Jungle Cruise queue where you've got stuff like this, which looks more realistic, as if somebody was really working here.

I'd agree that all of it is pretty contrived, especially in that the queue was built first and foremost to accomodate a line. It might work better backwards, design a building exactly to how a saw mill would look, and then go back and move machinery and try to thread a line through it. Something more open and looked like it could at one point actually have been a saw mill, instead of going into a building and adding some tool lockers and trying to make it look like something than other the obvious queue building it is meant to be.

And wood outside . . .

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, is it the DLP Main Street that has a cottage, brook, and bridge right in the middle of a shop? I recall this somewhere, and I don't think it was TDL.

If yes, can you say more about it? Any interesting stories in designing it, or hard choices to make?

The shop you are describing is in DLP Fantasyland and dedicated to Snow White. There's an image in the gallery of the bridge and cottage exterior. DLP Fantasyland has incredible interiors.
http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland-park/fantasyland/la-chaumiere-des-sept-nains/

It's inspiration may have come from a visit we all made to the Medieval German village of Rothenberg. In this Pinocchio like setting, there was a massive Christmas Store (to end all Christmas stores) that had an interior village and streams,etc. Pretty incredible, as it had a well deserved line to get in as was a linear shopping experience. I wonder if that early visit inspired Tony or Tom Morris, the designer for Fantasyland. Here's the shop.
http://www.wohlfahrt.com/index.php?clang=1
...and the town.
http://www.wohlfahrt.com/75-1-image_galerie_summer

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'd agree that all of it is pretty contrived, especially in that the queue was built first and foremost to accomodate a line. It might work better backwards, design a building exactly to how a saw mill would look, and then go back and move machinery and try to thread a line through it. Something more open and looked like it could at one point actually have been a saw mill, instead of going into a building and adding some tool lockers and trying to make it look like something than other the obvious queue building it is meant to be.

And wood outside . . .

There are realities of queues that you have to work around. You don't always have to cage everything in though. you can do combinations of glazed offices, tool cages, high platforms and so forth. In some cases the story is that you are back in time and things are new, that's ok too. Those two images show siding that has lots of texture and while the buildings are not old and beat up, they have a texture that has some soul. The roofs are not swayed and leaning or anything, but the textures are consistent with the artifacts. Sometimes you can sense if the artifacts are in the right relationships to actually be a working factory, etc.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

the proportion

Thanks for the video of the ride, it looks great, and more than Big Thunder, you've got a visible explanation as to why "everything's gone terribly wrong" as opposed to a backstory about haunted mine trains that isn't explicitly explained.

Regarding the town, I actually like the look of it though some parts are more "pristine" than others. The jail looks like it is failing apart though, as do some other buildings,

There might be a cultural issue here as well, as in the U.S. we've got ghost towns and old west-looking stuff falling apart, and theme parks try to represent this, we sort of expect the aged look in Knotts and other theme parks. In Hong Kong, the guests might wonder why everything looks like it is falling apart. It actually makes sense for stuff to look new as if the town discovered gold they would build fast and it would be new looking, at least when the construction boom happened. The saw mill does look a little too pristine, but I don't get why they went with a sawmill queue for a mine ride anyhow. (Maybe the element of danger associated with saw mills, the saws have sharp "teeth" similar to bears I guess).

In the 2010 film, True Grit, a good chunk of the houses in town look pretty good, recently painted, while the shacks in the middle of nowhere are falling apart. I think it is good that the Grizzly Gulch town area looks kept up as it has to match with Mystic Manor in the background, though the "saw mill" could have been made to look roughed up having been built outside of town, and probaby before most of the town buildings were there as they had to get the wood from somewhere.



From True Grit

More True Grit sets . . .

The proportions of the door trim and details on the True Grit sets look right on. They are thinner and finer and don't look clunky. Pretty realistic. The hand props would likely have been new as well. You have a point that when the story calls for something to be set back in time, then it should look new. "Boom Towns" were that way as they did spring up as you point out.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

the proportion

The proportions of the door trim and details on the True Grit sets look right on. They are thinner and finer and don't look clunky. Pretty realistic. The hand props would likely have been new as well. You have a point that when the story calls for something to be set back in time, then it should look new. "Boom Towns" were that way as they did spring up as you point out.

Though I guess because Boom Towns were built so quickly, they didn't use the best construction techniques, especially since there probably weren't many building codes.

I also don't know what sort of paint existed back then, obviously you couldn't go to the Home Depot and have a bucket of latex made to a specific color. I know that Disney uses European paints which are supposedly higher quality than other paints, even going as far as using some super-tough marine paints that have a high gloss on building on Main Street. Plus, I've seen what looks like subtle use of different colors of paint to make wood look like it was stained. I doubt that any Boom Town looked so "vivid" in terms of colors you see in Grizzly Gulch, that's the cartoonish aspect of all Disney creations I guess.

Maybe Boom towns used mostly white wash and various wood stains. I guess it comes down to presenting what guests would expect/like to see, which is shaped by the movies and experience in other parks.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Though I guess because Boom Towns were built so quickly, they didn't use the best construction techniques, especially since there probably weren't many building codes.

I also don't know what sort of paint existed back then, obviously you couldn't go to the Home Depot and have a bucket of latex made to a specific color. I know that Disney uses European paints which are supposedly higher quality than other paints, even going as far as using some super-tough marine paints that have a high gloss on building on Main Street. Plus, I've seen what looks like subtle use of different colors of paint to make wood look like it was stained. I doubt that any Boom Town looked so "vivid" in terms of colors you see in Grizzly Gulch, that's the cartoonish aspect of all Disney creations I guess.

Maybe Boom towns used mostly white wash and various wood stains. I guess it comes down to presenting what guests would expect/like to see, which is shaped by the movies and experience in other parks.

When I worked at Knott's many years ago, it was a goal to understand the west and what it was really like. Whitewash and lime was typical, but also there were paints brought out from the East. Some of these towns were nothing more than glorified camps. Lots of buildings were left as raw wood, many brick, or adobe block, depending on the local materials. Many were just wood floors and a low wall or wainscot with a tent behind the flat facade. That was it in some of the rail camps. Many two story hotels had canvas ceilings with wallpaper applied to the canvas. Some more recent films portray it closer to what it really was. Not that Disney is into that, but we almost did the "facade and tent" Mining Camp along Big Thunder Trail back when I was there. I may have a copy of the sketches. The fun buildings with the most character were built from bottles, barrels and cans. I gravitate toward those solutions as they are unique and have character. Knott's had many shacks like this and really pioneered them in theme parks.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

A big idea. I mean BIG.
What do you do with an abandoned and bankrupt city? Make the whole downtown the world's largest "Halloween Haunt" theme park with live action Zombies! Omega Man A Go Go! Can you imagine the "Escape from Detroit" live theme park? Wow. I doubt it will happen, there are a million reasons it can't happen (and probably shouldn't) but I love how this guy is thinking of urban renewal in a way that is outside of the box.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...me-park-pushed-through.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

When I worked at Knott's many years ago, it was a goal to understand the west and what it was really like. The fun buildings with the most character were built from bottles, barrels and cans. I gravitate toward those solutions as they are unique and have character. Knott's had many shacks like this and really pioneered them in theme parks.View attachment 27930View attachment 27931

That's really interesting, the "bottle house" concept seems to work pretty well at RSR too!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

A big idea. I mean BIG.
What do you do with an abandoned and bankrupt city? Make the whole downtown the world's largest "Halloween Haunt" theme park with live action Zombies! Omega Man A Go Go! Can you imagine the "Escape from Detroit" live theme park? Wow. I doubt it will happen, there are a million reasons it can't happen (and probably shouldn't) but I love how this guy is thinking of urban renewal in a way that is outside of the box.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...me-park-pushed-through.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

The biggest problem, IMO, is that condemned buildings can't be used for a theme park given structural failuure issues and probably building codes and health codes. Yeah, some of that stuff looks neat, but the only usable stuff is probably the warehouses, which if the steel frame/concrete is OK, they could refurbish it and then age it to make it look run down. Some of the really old buildings could be used as backdrop, but they'd have to be fenced off to keep guests, errr—zombie food, from seeking shelter in them.

Also . . . the place is going to be 200 acres big! Guests are supposed to run and hide and play a sort of virtual video game. Seems that it might be hard to police the place, and what if there is a fight between guests or somebody with bad intentions gets into the park? They can have security cameras everywhere, can they? They will need to employ dozens and dozens of security guards, AND build a massive wall to keep out uninvited party crashers. I could also see some guests actually hitting/attacking the zombies.

And their goal is $145,000 to build this. No way can they build it safe enough in that amount of time. They'll have building inspectors, but what if some guests try to escape the zombies by trying to get on top of roofs and stuff.

If they do it like Knott's Halloween thing (which I have never seen), then it would get traffic, especially around Halloween. Though we're realistically looking at something $100 million to build it legally I would think.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I agree, there are a glacier of issues. $145M won't cover inspecting the site, or the lawyers to deal with all the lawsuits from guests mugging other guests or being murdered. One of the aspects of "gameplay" is that YOU join the Zombies and then hunt and attack other guests. Yeah Right. Can you imagine how many criminals would buy annual passes? If you watch the guy's presentation video to the city, the renderings are like elementary school art, so it's not really a serious thing, but I had to sit back and admire the creativity. I think it's a better movie than an actual park.

So.. on another subject, I went on the Matterhorn twice today on the Tomorrowland side (faster and more interesting) and have to retract some of my critique. There ARE places, albeit small, to slide your feet in and around the seat in front of you, and so after threading my legs through them, I was fine. If you have thick calves you're not gonna be comfy, but it worked for me. The T'land side is far more thrilling and so all in all, it's fun. The splashdown was ok too. The F'land side was downright dull. Did not feel like an "E" anymore though.

The big issue (which you all raised) was the lack of any padding on the seats. The feedback on my body was painful. If I had to wish for one thing, it's some cushioning on the seats as they had in the past. BTW- They are running the Mountain Climbers again and play some great yodeling music around the Mountain while you watch. Loving the Swiss music.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That's really interesting, the "bottle house" concept seems to work pretty well at RSR too!

Yes, that's great. Tom Morris was pretty proud of that, as they have one At Calico Ghost Town and there is still one at Knott's.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Another Disneyland Paris storylet. Just to give you an idea of far away "the future" was in 1990, this table top "internet type" device in France was what we used to order train and plane tickets to other French destinations. Yes, the French Minitel. It was ahead of the Mac in many ways and was quite the cool thing in our French architect's office back then. This article reminded me of those days. Apparently, it inspired Steve Jobs as well.

http://www.cultofmac.com/177402/steve-jobs-was-inspired-by-this-french-table-top-box/

 

[StageFrenzy]

It's a wonder they didn't just copy the SM seats again. I find SM seats to be pretty comfortable, good armrests.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Another Disneyland Paris storylet. Just to give you an idea of far away "the future" was in 1990, this table top "internet type" device in France was what we used to order train and plane tickets to other French destinations.

http://www.cultofmac.com/177402/steve-jobs-was-inspired-by-this-french-table-top-box/

I still like the futuristic feel of wdw, the monorails and even the People Mover in Tomorrowland. (The technology is old, but if there was an infinite budget in Washington, we'd have a lot of this stuff, and it still looks futuristic when compared to buses).

Everything in wdw felt so perfectly planned, you'd feel like you're a citizen of a futuristic community, (or maybe its just how you check your brain at the gate and let Disney run your day).

But somewhere along the way I feel they dropped the ball, as the monorail line wasn't extended to the other parks, and there is more of a "usual" theme park feel to how the parks are run. I think they realized that constantly building expensive robots and futuristic displays was, well, expensive.

Fans talk a lot about how hard it is for Epcot or Tomorrowland to stay with the times. Futuristic E-Tickets like Mission Space will get the go-ahead, but I think that the little details are being lost, in terms of making the overall resort experience unique.

As more and more people carry smartphones, maybe they could use these, or other technology, in innovative ways in the park like:

1. Having a fireworks show where guests can vote ahead of time on certain sequences or effects.
2. Provide free digital pictures of you on a ride which are sent to your phone automatically.
3. Making an app where you can order ahead of time on your phone and sit down and eat the meal immediately, kind of a new experience.
4. Putting video conference phones standard in the hotel rooms such that the kids can call a "Buzz Lightyear" or other characters at certain times.

I think that if Disney did a hotel to look "futuristic" like Space Mountain for a lobby, it would draw a lot of attention in the press. Maybe they could offer something amazing like a computer screen you order room service from and it arrives via a meal transpotation system in your room.

The future is still like the Jetsons, I want to push a button and see something cool happen.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The future is still like the Jetsons, I want to push a button and see something cool happen.

Funny how buttons are still cooler than dials.