Economy does in Fantasyland

[Lee]

If you're going to base the two off of ride quality, you're comparing apples to oranges. A coaster that around 30 years old to one that's barely ten.

Actually, DL's is only 4 years old. And that comparison in ride quality is exactly why WDW's needs the refurb.

Vekoma's don't hold up very well, and are not known for their smooth ride. Granted maintenance will help, but even the best Vekoma's are still rough.

True, but not valid in this case. Vekoma didn't build the new one at DL.

As for theming? Perhaps. I like the queue at DL better, but I've always loved MK's loading area better. Watching the ride while in line is much more exciting to me.

True. Mostly though I was referring to the onride effects and theming.

 

[OFTeric]

I absolutely give Eisner credit for what he did even with the mistakes. WDW has built-out twice when some would have questioned the logic of it.

Now some flame me when I say WDW could be sold off in chunks to different entities but I honestly believe that could happen if they lose the vision management had in the 1970's and Eisner had in his heyday.

The conceptual artwork of the Imagineers combined with construction walls of an exciting new attraction/land/park is far more effective than a marketing campaign IMO. Especially at a place like WDW.

While I agree with the idea of construction walls and build projects, Marketing has always been able to come through! Only when the current formula fails will it force a change in stratagey.

 

[MousDad]

While I agree with the idea of construction walls and build projects, Marketing has always been able to come through! Only when the current formula fails will it force a change in stratagey.

At least we know where you work now. :lol:

Just kidding around. Please keep posting.

 

[Pete C]

True, but not valid in this case. Vekoma didn't build the new one at DL.

I didn't know that. I thought I remember them saying it was one of the first Vekomas to use their new track design where the wheels run outside the track. I guess that honor belongs to Everest then. I believe that is what will keep Everest from becoming rough.

 

[jt04]

While I agree with the idea of construction walls and build projects, Marketing has always been able to come through! Only when the current formula fails will it force a change in stratagey.

Sorry but I don't believe marketing alone will pull WDW out of this. Potterland is on the way, not to mention the much larger threat of losing international visitors to what is being done in Dubai. Someone had better get some "vision" for the future because the challenges are daunting..........................but the opportunities plentiful.

 

[Lee]

I didn't know that. I thought I remember them saying it was one of the first Vekomas to use their new track design where the wheels run outside the track.

If I recall correctly, there was some Vekoma involvement in the design, but they did not fabricate the track.

 

[mcjaco]

AMEC built the track. So it's partially correct.

Either way, comparing coasters is very subjective. That's all I'm trying to get at. You like DL's, I like MK's. At least for now. :animwink:

 

[fosse76]

I was being sarcastic about Disney going to the bank. They have (had) plenty of cash on hand to do anything they like in relation to fixing SM.

They are not going to use COH if their operational expeditures aren't being covered. I doubt Disney has enough COH to cover ALL its operational expenses PLUS major capital improvements. COH is used by large companies to secure and pay short term loans...they use the loans for their expenditures. This is to insure they have COH.

Just the work the Imagineers did on the design of the refurb is "money upfront" and there is no way a company starts designing and building hardware (track, sets) without a contract and some sort of capital. If Disney can't get a bank loan (as you argue ) where the heck would a track designer/builder get the money to start the project without the contractor providing funds through a "down payment". Now maybe Disney has that kind of clout but I doubt it. That is my thinking anyway.

The Imagineers' salary technically isn't "money upfront." That money would have been paid to them if they worked on a different project altogether (though I understand Disney does include that salary as part of a project's costs). That falls under the operational budget. The banks aren't lending money to each other, as a result those banks aren't lending money to clients...Disney included. This is the main reason we are in this financial meltdown. The banks don't trust each other so they aren't lending out their money. To ANYONE! I don't know why you are having a hard time grasping this fact. The bailout is intended to alleviate the banks' concerns so they will start lending again. The bailout was necessary in the eyes of the banks, because from my understanding they were going to freeze consumer credit next (i.e., not only would you not be able to get new credit cards, you wouldn't even be able to charge on the ones you have now).

Like someone mentioned, during the severe economic crisis of the mid to late seventies Disney built SM, TTA and Pirates and was designing Epcot (not an inexpensive process). It would be irresponsible not to go forward now. Announced projects (and evident progress) is the best advertising to bring visitors back in droves as the economy recovers and the attractions come on-line. The strategy worked once so I don't see why it would not work again.

Those were short-term crisis, and we are in a much more global economy now, which is being severely affected. Disney didn't survive the earlier meltdowns because of their capital improvements...they survived because the economy got better. And as others have pointed out, the company was on the verge of a hostile takeover because of those decisions. If people don't have money to travel, exactly how is a new attraction going to bring in new guests?

Sorry I am an optimist and when the "zeitgeist" is doom and gloom I always see opportunity. I never drink the kool-aid offered by the pop culture but thanks for offering. :lol:

You seem more delusional than optimistic. The economic crisis is very real...just look at the stock market today. If you have a 401(k) just take a look at it...I'll bet it's been decimated. I'm fortunate that it hasn't affected me much...I'm young enough that I can rebuild my 401(k). But if it doesn't come under control, people aren't going to be sitting around here arguing about what Disney will build next...rather they'll be hoping they can keep their job.

 

[fosse76]

If I recall correctly, there was some Vekoma involvement in the design, but they did not fabricate the track.

No coaster designers fabricate their own track. I personally don't know why Disney uses Vekoma...if they were a grocery item they would be in the generic aisle. They must be the only company that will allow Disney to take credit for their designs.

 

[jt04]

They are not going to use COH if their operational expeditures aren't being covered. I doubt Disney has enough COH to cover ALL its operational expenses PLUS major capital improvements. COH is used by large companies to secure and pay short term loans...they use the loans for their expenditures. This is to insure they have COH.



The Imagineers' salary technically isn't "money upfront." That money would have been paid to them if they worked on a different project altogether (though I understand Disney does include that salary as part of a project's costs). That falls under the operational budget. The banks aren't lending money to each other, as a result those banks aren't lending money to clients...Disney included. This is the main reason we are in this financial meltdown. The banks don't trust each other so they aren't lending out their money. To ANYONE! I don't know why you are having a hard time grasping this fact. The bailout is intended to alleviate the banks' concerns so they will start lending again. The bailout was necessary in the eyes of the banks, because from my understanding they were going to freeze consumer credit next (i.e., not only would you not be able to get new credit cards, you wouldn't even be able to charge on the ones you have now).



Those were short-term crisis, and we are in a much more global economy now, which is being severely affected. Disney didn't survive the earlier meltdowns because of their capital improvements...they survived because the economy got better. And as others have pointed out, the company was on the verge of a hostile takeover because of those decisions. If people don't have money to travel, exactly how is a new attraction going to bring in new guests?



You seem more delusional than optimistic. The economic crisis is very real...just look at the stock market today. If you have a 401(k) just take a look at it...I'll bet it's been decimated. I'm fortunate that it hasn't affected me much...I'm young enough that I can rebuild my 401(k). But if it doesn't come under control, people aren't going to be sitting around here arguing about what Disney will build next...rather they'll be hoping they can keep their job.

I took my money out of the stock market as soon as the the "bailout" package came to the floor of the house and a single vote had been cast. (it failed the first time as you know but I knew that would not stop the raw power grab of the politicians) You see I understand socialism never ever works. Let me say that again, never ever ever. Never has never will. So my funds are fine and I am not decimated. I am not so delusional as to think the bailout could or would work. You sound like you think it will .Thanks for your concern about my financial well being though. You might want to take a market oriented economics class. It will set you free!

And I can go to the bank right now and get a loan. I have researched it and if you put money down the banks are still lending (barring anymore "government(s) intervention"). The only credit cards that wouldn't have worked are those with an outstanding balance. Those "paid up" would still work for most people.

Don't even get me started on the takeover threats under Eisner. I suggest reading "Disney Wars" and applying a bit of critical thinking. It's obvious what was going on. :brick:

 

[Brian Noble]

No coaster designers fabricate their own track.

Doesn't B&M own that fab in Ohio, or am I mis-remembering?

Edited to add: It looks like they are separate companies.

 

[WDW1974]

I thought you've said a couple of times on LP that the cutbacks in the SM refurb were budget related?

I have ... and they have.

But when last I heard Space Mountain was closing down on Jan. 1st for 18 months.

That was WITH substantial budget cuts from original proposals.

Now, if it's truly seven months, I don't see what else it could be but ops and/or Phil Holmes saying 'we can't possibly close Space for that long so let's cut out ...'

 

[WDW1974]

Once you've ridden DL's, you understand why WDW's need a major rehab. There is no comparison between the two. If they make WDW's as good as DL's, it will be worth all the down-time in the world.

That much is true.

But if you think DL's version is so good, you should ride HK's and Paris's because they're even better ... considerably so.

WDW's is a sad, stale shadow of what was once a cutting edge coaster ride (and not just a 'Disney coaster'). It should have been gutted over a decade ago and replaced with a new version.

It's a joke that it is 2008 and the same 1975 ride (in about 1992 shape) is still plodding along while fans whine about them closing it for any length of time.

 

[WDW1974]

Well with all the empty rooms it means that you will be able to score some really GREAT deals down here in Orlando! Especially when you are enjoying your free park ticket or 75.00 merchandise credit in the parks!

Basically 09 might be they year to really enjoy an inexpensive Orlando Holiday!

That much is guaranteed.

The question will be how many people can still afford to travel and how many want to travel to a stale destination? (balloons, banners and CMs asking 'What Will You Celebrate?' aside)

Disney has lost one third of its value in the past week. What a disaster!

 

[WDW1974]

During that time we were getting Savannah Rooms at AKL for around $150-$180. God I miss those days. We could plan trips complete with dining and room reservations on the ride from Jacksonville to WDW.

Disney has been discounting its rooms so much, so often that I almost can't remember when I last paid full rack rate (it was the week after DAK opened in 1998!)

The week before Christmas in 2006 I stayed at DAK for $129 a night.

I was just quoted $99 rooms for most mdoerates later this month (and was told that rate is available most nights until Christmas).

I bet the discounts will get even better. And, sadly, I don't think that's a good thing.

 

[WDW1974]

This has been a very conscious strategy in the post-9/11 world.

Disney has not started construction on a single new hotel room since 9/11, and they halted construction on the half-finshed "other side" of Pop Century, writing off the entire capital invested.

At the same time, they've opened or announced BCV, SSR, AKV, and BLT---adding plenty of DVC inventory while removing some hotel inventory in the top two floors of AKL and the north tower of CR.

In short, the past 5-7 years have seen a complete change in the philosophy behind developing the resort, to act as a buffer for bad times. This is the first real test of that strategy.

Yes, because as any true Disney fan knows Walt once said ''Here in Florida we have enough land for all the timeshares we can possibly imagine.''

 

[Master Yoda]

Disney has been discounting its rooms so much, so often that I almost can't remember when I last paid full rack rate (it was the week after DAK opened in 1998!)

The week before Christmas in 2006 I stayed at DAK for $129 a night.

I was just quoted $99 rooms for most mdoerates later this month (and was told that rate is available most nights until Christmas).

I bet the discounts will get even better. And, sadly, I don't think that's a good thing.

Neither do I. Sure the low rates are great but in the long run they will come at a cost.

 

[Brian Noble]

Disney has lost one third of its value in the past week. What a disaster!

So have most companies---and many have been hit even harder. Disney's stock value has nothing to do with what is or isn't happening with Space Mountain.

Yes, because as any true Disney fan knows Walt once said ''Here in Florida we have enough land for all the timeshares we can possibly imagine.''

Oh, please. Enough with WWWD. Even if you want to go that route, different times call for different measures. Walt planned and opened Disneyland in post-war America, and died 12 years later. That period, 55 to 66, saw nearly uninterrupted growth: only three years had negative returns in the S&P 500 and only one was more than 10%.

2001 and 2002 saw a combined 50% drop in stock values, and a complete hammering of Disney's domestic theme park business. Reacting by trying to aggressively build up a captive audience of timeshare owners is a pretty rational strategy.

 

[WDW1974]

Sorry but I don't believe marketing alone will pull WDW out of this. Potterland is on the way, not to mention the much larger threat of losing international visitors to what is being done in Dubai. Someone had better get some "vision" for the future because the challenges are daunting..........................but the opportunities plentiful.

I agree with your point about vision.

It's scary how a company founded on having great vision and taking chances ... daring to do what has never been done now can't even make business decisions that are 'playing it safe.'

It's a no-brainer that reinvestment adds bodies to the parks, which adds dollars to the coffers, which usually results in a higher stock price. A new attraction like Mermaid when tentpoled around the MK's 40th would lead to more positives in the financial columns, while also making the product fresher and more relavant. Giving people new reasons to return and first-timers another push to visit.

That would be playing it safe.

Disney's current management isn't interested in doing even that. It is interested in sure things ... that's why the place keeps getting staler.

I believe the only real hope, short of Jay Rasulo being replaced by someone with vision, is the DVCers.

I can't imagine people who 'invested' say $40,000 on a timeshare in 1998 based on decades of magical WDW vacations who aren't saying 'gee, are they ever going to add anything to the MK?'

Vocal DVCers might be WDW's best hope for the future ...

 

[Brian Noble]

The sense I get from most DVCers is that they view the reosrt as a whole, and not MK in isolation. Viewed that way, most seem happy.