Do you think renting DVC points bothers Disney?

[flynnibus]

As I've stated already in this thread, there is availability at every resort for next week. Clearly, they are NOT filling all the rooms. Heck, I can check in tonight for an entire week at ANY resort.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Because your logic is flawed.

You say Disney can't be filling the rooms because there is vacancies..

But there is no link to say these are rooms that are free due to DVC rentals.

So your logic fails to encompass that there is the possibility of open rooms regardless of DVC rental leakage... so the fact that there are open rooms really means nothing with respect to leakage due to DVC rentals.

It's like saying the sky is blue because there are DVC rentals... I can show both conditions exist and are factual.. but you can't show that one is directly related to the other.

Just because there are open rooms - that isn't enough alone to say Disney isn't or can't backfill those reservations you are leaking to DVC rentals.

 

[Annielkd]

There are many rooms free for cash next week. Disney looses out when people rent from people. I'm sure Disney will stop or find a way to limit this even more. Right now there is only a percentage of your points you can rent. Soon, they will make it so you can only give it away to relatives. Then, you won't be able to at all. I think they will continue to cut back on what they allow DVC members... they have already cut back quite a bit in just one year. Wait for two.

 

[flynnibus]

Right now there is only a percentage of your points you can rent

???

I think they will continue to cut back on what they allow DVC members... they have already cut back quite a bit in just one year. Wait for two.

What changes are you talking about? The only chance I can think of in the last two years has been the change in privledges for resale buyers.

Then before that was the change in the # of transfers to one a year.

 

[Annielkd]

???



What changes are you talking about? The only chance I can think of in the last two years has been the change in privledges for resale buyers.

Then before that was the change in the # of transfers to one a year.

I've only been a member for 1/2 year. Since then they have already changed the perks that someone can have when you re-sell the membership. My husband said there was something else, but... we have only had this so short a time. I really think there will be continual changes. Still... this is an opinion.

 

[slappy magoo]

There are many rooms free for cash next week. Disney looses out when people rent from people. I'm sure Disney will stop or find a way to limit this even more. Right now there is only a percentage of your points you can rent. Soon, they will make it so you can only give it away to relatives. Then, you won't be able to at all. I think they will continue to cut back on what they allow DVC members... they have already cut back quite a bit in just one year. Wait for two.

Nah. Probably not.

Let’s take captainkidd’s example. Imagine Disney finds out captainkidd canceled his reservation at the Poly, and now people with captainkidd’s name and his family members’ names are booked in a 1BR villa at Wilderness Lodge using Slappy Magoo’s points.

Here’s what Disney DOES NOT KNOW:

Would captainkidd cancel his reservation at the Poly anyway? Would he have had to downgrade to a moderate? Or a Value? A campground? Would he have (gasp!) opted to stay offsite, where he’s more prone to spend less money ON-site? Would he have (double gasp!) NOT GONE TO WDW AT ALL?!?!?!


That’s what they DON’T know. Here’s what they DO know:

Slappy Magoo rented his points to captainkidd. Ergo, Slappy Magoo wasn’t planning to go to WDW this year. Nooooo tourism dollars from Slappy Magoo in 2012.

Now, glass-half-empty thinking, they lost Slappy Magoo in 2012, AND they lost the money captainkidd was going to spend to stay in the Poly.

Glass-half-FULL thinking, instead of definitely losing one guest this year, and possibly losing another entirely, they definitely kept someone on site.. They’re buying Disney food. Disney drinks. Disney souvenirs. Maybe now they’ll upgrade to park hoppers, or water park options. Maybe they’ll upgrade to annual passes, so we know they’ll be back NEXT year spending money! It's better to make a lot of money than a little, but it's better to make a little than nothing. As my boss used to say when I used to work retail and people would put something on layaway, or order something with a deposit - until you have their money, you DON'T have their money.

And if captainkidd’s room at the Poly never gets booked, you know what could conceivably happen? They’ll upgrade someone at the Wilderness Lodge. Then they’ll upgrade someone at Caribbean Resort to stay at Wilderness, and someone at Pop to stay at Caribbean. Now, that one Poly room wasn’t sold, but there are three incredibly happy families, who just might thank Disney for their upgrades…by spending more money because the trip is now that much more magical.


Oh, and here's what WE don’t know: whether or not captainkidd got the Poly room in the first place using a PIN code, or promotional offer. It’s possible that Disney wasn’t making that much of a profit on the room in the first place, but they were willing to rent it cheap to get captainkidd on property…to spend money. Captainkidd is pretty savvy; I’d bet a dollar he isn’t paying rack rates, and probably getting the best potential room discount a fella can get. Sure, Disney would probably still get a profit from that room, but as I suggested before, maybe to get that Poly room, captainkidd was scrimping elsewhere, not getting park hoppers, going offsite for meals, etc. Now that he's saving even more money by renting DVC points, he might loosen up that wallet even more. They could, conceivably, make MORE money this way. Probably not, but that could be why they don't sweat renters so much. And maybe the next person who rents that room at the Poly captainkidd was going to get doesn't know beans about discounts, and they're paying rack rate. Who's got the last laugh now?


NOW, let’s say Disney decides to put the kibosh on DVC members renting points. What they still don’t know is if all those people who would’ve rented points from DVC members would still go to WDW, and if they DO go to WDW, whether they’d stay on-propery. While I don’t think the number of renters is enough to make Disney make an effort to stop them, if there WERE that many, they may see a situation where certain resorts get oversold, resulting in make-good upgrades…probably in DVC resorts Disney could try to punish DVC members who rent points – technically, they already can; DVC members agree that they will not use their membership as a moneymaking venture, but generally speaking, DVC doesn’t attack many people because anyone renting points is often doing it once in a while, when they can’t go to WDW or perhaps money is tight. It’s worth it for Disney to keep those people happy, because the alternative is yet another DVC resale on the market, which is already as full as I’ve ever seen it. Besides, what Disney is really looking for are the people who are routinely renting some or all of their points, at which case they violated the terms of their agreement with DVC and I believe (not sure, someone can correct me if I’m wrong) Disney can flat-out take the points back. That alone is probably incentive enough for people to not take advantage of renting their points out.

Maybe one day they’ll try to change the rules, but I don’t think they’ll ban the rental of points. What I can imagine them doing is making it policy that you can only rent points THROUGH them, essentially doing what “Dave” at dvc rentals does and profiting form it. The fact that they haven’t done it yet makes me think it’s currently not worth the effort to set up such an exchange. Which goes to the heart of the original question: No, I don’t think Disney care all that much when a DVC member rents their points. Because…oh, just read my post again…and again…and again…

(cue Twilight Zone music and lightning)

 

[Tom]

There are many rooms free for cash next week. Disney looses out when people rent from people. I'm sure Disney will stop or find a way to limit this even more. Right now there is only a percentage of your points you can rent. Soon, they will make it so you can only give it away to relatives. Then, you won't be able to at all. I think they will continue to cut back on what they allow DVC members... they have already cut back quite a bit in just one year. Wait for two.

I've only been a member for 1/2 year. Since then they have already changed the perks that someone can have when you re-sell the membership. My husband said there was something else, but... we have only had this so short a time. I really think there will be continual changes. Still... this is an opinion.

Disney isn't losing anything - they still have you on property, spending money on higher-profit purchases (park tickets, meals, souvenirs, tours, recreation, etc).

And no, DVC didn't change any rules about RENTING your points. There's always been a rule that you can't rent them continuously (i.e. a company buying points and renting them only for profit). They changed the rules on SELLING a contract, but that has no bearing on this discussion.

DVC wants to sell contracts, and they want their resorts full. Who is actually staying in the room has very little importance to them. And Disney, which owns DVC, just wants as many guests stuck on property as possible. If they have you trapped on property, Disney WINS....they don't lose.

Nah. Probably not.

Let’s take captainkidd’s example. Imagine Disney finds out captainkidd canceled his reservation at the Poly, and now people with captainkidd’s name and his family members’ names are booked in a 1BR villa at Wilderness Lodge using Slappy Magoo’s points.

Here’s what Disney DOES NOT KNOW:

Would captainkidd cancel his reservation at the Poly anyway? Would he have had to downgrade to a moderate? Or a Value? A campground? Would he have (gasp!) opted to stay offsite, where he’s more prone to spend less money ON-site? Would he have (double gasp!) NOT GONE TO WDW AT ALL?!?!?!


That’s what they DON’T know. Here’s what they DO know:

Slappy Magoo rented his points to captainkidd. Ergo, Slappy Magoo wasn’t planning to go to WDW this year. Nooooo tourism dollars from Slappy Magoo in 2012.

Now, glass-half-empty thinking, they lost Slappy Magoo in 2012, AND they lost the money captainkidd was going to spend to stay in the Poly.

Glass-half-FULL thinking, instead of definitely losing one guest this year, and possibly losing another entirely, they definitely kept someone on site.. They’re buying Disney food. Disney drinks. Disney souvenirs. Maybe now they’ll upgrade to park hoppers, or water park options. Maybe they’ll upgrade to annual passes, so we know they’ll be back NEXT year spending money! It's better to make a lot of money than a little, but it's better to make a little than nothing. As my boss used to say when I used to work retail and people would put something on layaway, or order something with a deposit - until you have their money, you DON'T have their money.

And if captainkidd’s room at the Poly never gets booked, you know what could conceivably happen? They’ll upgrade someone at the Wilderness Lodge. Then they’ll upgrade someone at Caribbean Resort to stay at Wilderness, and someone at Pop to stay at Caribbean. Now, that one Poly room wasn’t sold, but there are three incredibly happy families, who just might thank Disney for their upgrades…by spending more money because the trip is now that much more magical.


Oh, and here's what WE don’t know: whether or not captainkidd got the Poly room in the first place using a PIN code, or promotional offer. It’s possible that Disney wasn’t making that much of a profit on the room in the first place, but they were willing to rent it cheap to get captainkidd on property…to spend money. Captainkidd is pretty savvy; I’d bet a dollar he isn’t paying rack rates, and probably getting the best potential room discount a fella can get. Sure, Disney would probably still get a profit from that room, but as I suggested before, maybe to get that Poly room, captainkidd was scrimping elsewhere, not getting park hoppers, going offsite for meals, etc. Now that he's saving even more money by renting DVC points, he might loosen up that wallet even more. They could, conceivably, make MORE money this way. Probably not, but that could be why they don't sweat renters so much. And maybe the next person who rents that room at the Poly captainkidd was going to get doesn't know beans about discounts, and they're paying rack rate. Who's got the last laugh now?


NOW, let’s say Disney decides to put the kibosh on DVC members renting points. What they still don’t know is if all those people who would’ve rented points from DVC members would still go to WDW, and if they DO go to WDW, whether they’d stay on-propery. While I don’t think the number of renters is enough to make Disney make an effort to stop them, if there WERE that many, they may see a situation where certain resorts get oversold, resulting in make-good upgrades…probably in DVC resorts Disney could try to punish DVC members who rent points – technically, they already can; DVC members agree that they will not use their membership as a moneymaking venture, but generally speaking, DVC doesn’t attack many people because anyone renting points is often doing it once in a while, when they can’t go to WDW or perhaps money is tight. It’s worth it for Disney to keep those people happy, because the alternative is yet another DVC resale on the market, which is already as full as I’ve ever seen it. Besides, what Disney is really looking for are the people who are routinely renting some or all of their points, at which case they violated the terms of their agreement with DVC and I believe (not sure, someone can correct me if I’m wrong) Disney can flat-out take the points back. That alone is probably incentive enough for people to not take advantage of renting their points out.

Maybe one day they’ll try to change the rules, but I don’t think they’ll ban the rental of points. What I can imagine them doing is making it policy that you can only rent points THROUGH them, essentially doing what “Dave” at dvc rentals does and profiting form it. The fact that they haven’t done it yet makes me think it’s currently not worth the effort to set up such an exchange. Which goes to the heart of the original question: No, I don’t think Disney care all that much when a DVC member rents their points. Because…oh, just read my post again…and again…and again…

(cue Twilight Zone music and lightning)

Lots of words, but I agree.

In summary, if they disapproved of this practice, they would have already stopped it - guaranteed.

 

[Lucky]

There are many rooms free for cash next week. Disney looses out when people rent from people. I'm sure Disney will stop or find a way to limit this even more. Right now there is only a percentage of your points you can rent. Soon, they will make it so you can only give it away to relatives. Then, you won't be able to at all. I think they will continue to cut back on what they allow DVC members... they have already cut back quite a bit in just one year. Wait for two.

If they tighten the restrictions in new contracts, then they won't be able to charge as much for memberships. When you dilute the product you're selling, you have to cut the price or accept that you'll be selling less of them. On balance they might do a little better revenue-wise or a little worse.

I don't think the restrictions, to the extent there are any now, are motivated by trying to fill more hotel rooms. It's about protecting the brand. They don't want people who are basically for-profit brokers instead of Disney vacationers taking a big part of this market, that might among other things risk negative publicity about people being cheated in deals.

 

[Hakunamatata]

If DVC were smart they would clause future contracts to require all DVC rentals to be brokered through them. Problem solved. They control the price per point allowing a contracted value to the DVC owner.

 

[captainkidd]

If DVC were smart they would clause future contracts to require all DVC rentals to be brokered through them. Problem solved. They control the price per point allowing a contracted value to the DVC owner.

I'm very surprised they haven't gone this route as of yet. The only thing I can think of is that they don't want to be bothered with the hassle of it.

 

[captainkidd]

In summary, if they disapproved of this practice, they would have already stopped it - guaranteed.

Well, that's sort of the million dollar question - Can they legally stop it? When you buy DVC, don't you legally own those points to do with as you please? Disney's not stupid - When creating DVC, they had to know this was a possibility.

I agree with some saying that Disney may not have a big problem with people renting points simply because it could be the best selling point for them to buy DVC. But if you're like me and love the 1 bedroom villa, but don't want to be locked into a timeshare program and don't want to pay $600 per night, then renting points is the PERFECT solution.

 

[Phonedave]

I'm very surprised they haven't gone this route as of yet. The only thing I can think of is that they don't want to be bothered with the hassle of it.

I could see Disney taking it over only for a PR reason

Right now, if you rent points, and something goes wrong, it's between you and the owner.

That alone must be a PR nightmare for Disney at times. Imagine a family showing up at WDW to find their DVC rental is messed up and the CM at the desk says "sorry, not our problem, you need to get in touch with the owner". Yeah, the family knew that going in, and it is the stated policy, but it still makes Disney look bad.

If DVC acts as the broker, they can make sure the deals go through.

or - to minmize the mipact

They could just encourage people not to rent points on a wholesale basis - as they do now.

-dave

 

[tjkraz]

In summary, if they disapproved of this practice, they would have already stopped it - guaranteed.

Disney CANNOT legally put a stop to it altogether, reason being Disney itself "rents" out points and they cannot enforce a double standard. But they have undeniably made it more difficult to rent points over the years. I've previously mentioned the lack of communication with non-members which they implemented about 4 years ago. Also this stated checkpoint of 20+ reservations as the definition of a commercial renter was only unveiled about 3 years ago.

More recently they placed restrictions on the number of Associate memberships an individual can own. At least one of the point rental services would operate by having their staff members added as Associates to the contracts of those whose points they were renting. Now any one individual can only be listed as an Associate on a maximum of five contracts.

All of these changes occurred within the last few years--after 15+ years of active point renting--and they were clearly aimed at curtailing that market.

With that said, all of "Disney" is not of a like mind on this topic. As I said in the conclusion of my last post, executives who are in charge of the hotel unit despise point renting. Regardless what sort of illustrations we may float, every guest who rents points is business lost to Disney hotel management. They have to work that much harder to fill their own vacancies. And since the Disney hotels are not full--even with discounting--we know they have not been entirely successful at filling those vacancies.

Theme park management is neutral on the topic. Yes, they get the revenue either way.

DVC is largely in favor of it. It's a good marketing tool and someone had to buy all of those rental points in the first place.

There is no solitary "Disney" corporate view on whether rentals are good or bad. It all depends upon one's perspective. But legally Disney would face stiff challenges from owners if they tried to end the practice altogether.

 

[captainkidd]

As I said in the conclusion of my last post, executives who are in charge of the hotel unit despise point renting. Regardless what sort of illustrations we may float, every guest who rents points is business lost to Disney hotel management. They have to work that much harder to fill their own vacancies. And since the Disney hotels are not full--even with discounting--we know they have not been entirely successful at filling those vacancies.

Theme park management is neutral on the topic. Yes, they get the revenue either way.

DVC is largely in favor of it. It's a good marketing tool and someone had to buy all of those rental points in the first place.

There is no solitary "Disney" corporate view on whether rentals are good or bad. It all depends upon one's perspective. But legally Disney would face stiff challenges from owners if they tried to end the practice altogether.

This is exactly the way I look at it too. Makes sense to me.:shrug:

 

[DVCOwner]

Here may be some other issues to look at:

If Disney did not allow renting of DVC points they might sell less DVC points. Otherwise, is being able to rent your points if you can not make a trip vs. losing them, something a person may consider when making a purchase. It was one of the things talked about when I purchased my points.

If DVC is going to be a time share and the DVC member is a property owner under FL law, can DVC not allow for me to do what I want (within reason) when it comes to using my points. I have a deed to the property and all I am doing is renting out my "property".

Disney has made billions of dollars off DVC and they might want to keep members happy and not put to many laws in there way. Unhappy members can effect sells.

Renting a room at DVC is at no cost to Disney because the membership dues pay all the cost of running that room.

Does renting allow some people from not making thier dues payments and cuasing DVC cost in getting the money back or taking the property back from the owner.

As said before, allowing renting is a good why to get new members.

Remember DVC is a time share by law.

The few dollors lost in room profits may not be add up to any lose by the above.

X + Y (minus everything else) does not add up to the same total of X + Y = Z. To many other factors.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

While we had not thought about renting out our points as of yet (too busy using them!), a question for the experts. If I rent my points to someone, and they trash the room, who is legally liable for the repairs? Does anyone have a firm answer? That would really influence whether I would even be willing to rent my points to another person.

 

[Master Yoda]

While we had not thought about renting out our points as of yet (too busy using them!), a question for the experts. If I rent my points to someone, and they trash the room, who is legally liable for the repairs? Does anyone have a firm answer? That would really influence whether I would even be willing to rent my points to another person.

If I am not mistaken you are.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

While we had not thought about renting out our points as of yet (too busy using them!), a question for the experts. If I rent my points to someone, and they trash the room, who is legally liable for the repairs? Does anyone have a firm answer? That would really influence whether I would even be willing to rent my points to another person.

The member is on the line for everything that a renter does. If they leave the room a mess you have to pay. If they somehow find a way to escape with out paying their room charge, you are responsible for those as well. Renting can be a very tricky business...

 

[LuvtheGoof]

If I am not mistaken you are.

The member is on the line for everything that a renter does. If they leave the room a mess you have to pay. If they somehow find a way to escape with out paying their room charge, you are responsible for those as well. Renting can be a very tricky business...

I was not sure about that, but I would think that a few people would be hesitant to rent to a complete stranger in this case. I know I would!

 

[tjkraz]

I was not sure about that, but I would think that a few people would be hesitant to rent to a complete stranger in this case. I know I would!

Going by internet discussions, it's not often that these things happen. But it is true that the member is ultimately liable for any misdeeds of their renters.

Over the years I've read a handful of reports of members being billed for renter charges if they refused to leave a credit card at check-in or when the charges were subsequently declined by the bank. As a practice Disney doesn't bill guests for damage to rooms. But it would seem there is some risk of getting billed for a renter's park tickets, meals and other expenses if they cannot collect from the individual. Disney may or may not have a legal right to bill the point owner for such charges but good luck fighting the beast on that one.

I've also heard of situations where renters were able to spend more of the member's points by adding extra days or upgrading to a better view upon arrival at the resort. That one may be easier to fight through Member Services--I doubt the front desk staff is supposed to be spending additional points on the word of a resort guest who isn't the owner.

 

[Tom]

Going by internet discussions, it's not often that these things happen. But it is true that the member is ultimately liable for any misdeeds of their renters.

Over the years I've read a handful of reports of members being billed for renter charges if they refused to leave a credit card at check-in or when the charges were subsequently declined by the bank. As a practice Disney doesn't bill guests for damage to rooms. But it would seem there is some risk of getting billed for a renter's park tickets, meals and other expenses if they cannot collect from the individual. Disney may or may not have a legal right to bill the point owner for such charges but good luck fighting the beast on that one.

I've also heard of situations where renters were able to spend more of the member's points by adding extra days or upgrading to a better view upon arrival at the resort. That one may be easier to fight through Member Services--I doubt the front desk staff is supposed to be spending additional points on the word of a resort guest who isn't the owner.

I'm 99.9% sure your last two points are false.

Disney can't arbitrarily charge you for someone else's purchases. If a guest puts down a card on the room for charging privileges, and it bounces, that's now between Disney and the guest's bank. And if a guest DOESN'T put down a card on the room, nothing can be charged to the room anyway, so it's a moot point.

And when a DVC owner books a stay for a renter, the DVC owner has to put in the renter's names. Disney knows when it's not the Owner staying in the room. As such, they're not going to allow the room occupant to simply add nights to the room and use your points. If that's happened, it was because of an uneducated CM.