DisneylandForward

[TP2000]

I get out quite a bit thanks. And I've traveled all across this great nation, and seen places both urban and rural.

But since this is not the thread for this, and its wading into both political and social issues we're not suppose to talk about on this site, we should just leave it there.

Don't worry, I won't tell.

I always enjoy conversations about substantive topics beyond the latest Fullerton Junior College (Go Hornets!) co-eds dressed up as Marvel lady superheroes, or the latest chunk of Chinese made plastic disguised as a popcorn bucket.

That photo above of the homeless camped out in the World Class Resort District of Anaheim is a few years old now.

I should ask a friend who owns property in the Resort District to take some new pictures for me. I wonder what Anaheim looks like now in 2024?

 

[mickEblu]

I believe in the recent expansion Toy Story has now ~5400 guest parking plus whatever CM parking. Add that to the original proposed Pumbaa structure of ~6800, and you got 12.2k spots. Add in whatever CM spots also have to be replaced and add for growth, and you got the remaining ~4800 spots.

So it makes sense why they would do all 17k now as part of the project, even if its not all used right away.

It’s hard to believe they would waste the Toy Story parking lot on another DTD. In a perfect world that would be the third gate, DCA would be expanded on the Simba lot and they would just leave Disneyland alone.

 

[Disney Irish]

It’s hard to believe they would waste the Toy Story parking lot on another DTD. In a perfect world that would be the third gate, DCA would be expanded on the Simba lot and they would just leave Disneyland alone.

In a perfect world they would have developed Toy Story a long time ago.

Anyways I’m not going to be surprised them developing Toy Story into a hotel and shopping district. But with that said anything is possible and so maybe it plays out closer to what you want.

 

[denyuntilcaught]

It’s hard to believe they would waste the Toy Story parking lot on another DTD. In a perfect world that would be the third gate, DCA would be expanded on the Simba lot and they would just leave Disneyland alone.

Just putting thoughts out there, but I wonder if it's because it's actually cheaper/more efficient to develop the property west of Disneyland Drive due to close proximity and ease of integrating into existing infrastructure, versus having to develop a third park on the Toy Story lot and basically having to start from scratch? Obviously a DTD East + Hotels requires it's own start up costs, but I feel like they're substantially less than a third park.

These are just musings and probably incorrect, but just a thought.

 

[mickEblu]

Just putting thoughts out there, but I wonder if it's because it's actually cheaper/more efficient to develop the property west of Disneyland Drive due to close proximity and ease of integrating into existing infrastructure, versus having to develop a third park on the Toy Story lot and basically having to start from scratch? Obviously a DTD East + Hotels requires it's own start up costs, but I feel like they're substantially less than a third park.

These are just musings and probably incorrect, but just a thought.

This is all logical. I’m just getting stuck on the fact that the Toy Story lot is the THEE last chance to get a third park in Anaheim. I’m not sure that’s an opportunity that can be easily passed up. The additions west of Disneyland drive would be expansions to DCA and DL and probably rolled out in phases over many many years. Yawn. If they don’t want to do a third park I think what they should do is just go ALL IN on the DCA expansion and make it a legitimate full day park. They really don’t need to touch Disneyland for years.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I’d like to see a third park also but don’t think Disney can fully capitalize on it without more Disney owned hotels for the guests to stay at.

Neither HS or AK has managed to attract MK levels of guests but they have done a great job of extending vacations and selling hotel rooms.

Disneys in an odd spot where the Toy Story lot is their only real option for a third park, but it’s also the best spot to build the hotels, shopping, and dining district needed to justify a third park.

It’s too bad Disney doesn’t own Gardenwalk, that would be the perfect DTD like shopping area to connect a third park. Add hotels above the shops like Grand Californian and it would be ideal.

 

[J4546]

yeah they shoulda bought garde walk when it was for like 80 million a few years ago

 

[mickEblu]

I’d like to see a third park also but don’t think Disney can fully capitalize on it without more Disney owned hotels for the guests to stay at.

Neither HS or AK has managed to attract MK levels of guests but they have done a great job of extending vacations and selling hotel rooms.

Disneys in an odd spot where the Toy Story lot is their only real option for a third park, but it’s also the best spot to build the hotels, shopping, and dining district needed to justify a third park.

It’s too bad Disney doesn’t own Gardenwalk, that would be the perfect DTD like shopping area to connect a third park. Add hotels above the shops like Grand Californian and it would be ideal.

True but it’s much easier to build a hotel than it is to find space for a third gate in Anaheim. Why not build a hotel where they want to put the DL side of DL forward west of DL drive? Put the third gate at Toy Story. Expand DCA into Simba lot.

 

[SSG]

It’s hard to believe they would waste the Toy Story parking lot on another DTD. In a perfect world that would be the third gate, DCA would be expanded on the Simba lot and they would just leave Disneyland alone.

This has been my issue with the various rumors about the Toy Story lot. Disney certainly needs more shops, hotels, entertainment and restaurants to support the resort, and all that can be built at Toy Story. But the lot is about 75 acres, just a bit less than DCA. There is a close to 0% chance that Disney gets another 75 acre parcel around the existing resort.

Taking 75 acres they have right now, and will never get again, and slapping a hotel and shops there borders on corporate negligence. Disney would be wasting a theme park opportunity they may never get again.

 

[mickEblu]

This has been my issue with the various rumors about the Toy Story lot. Disney certainly needs more shops, hotels, entertainment and restaurants to support the resort, and all that can be built at Toy Story. But the lot is about 75 acres, just a bit less than DCA. There is a close to 0% chance that Disney gets another 75 acre parcel around the existing resort.

Taking 75 acres they have right now, and will never get again, and slapping a hotel and shops there borders on corporate negligence. Disney would be wasting a theme park opportunity they may never get again.

Yup. It’s interesting to think about what the theme would be for a third gate. You already have the castle park and DHS West/ Disney Universal Studios. I don’t see an AK style park working there. Too small. Not to say it has to be a WDW equivalent but a World Showcase West with more rides could work. Major food and alcohol sales from locals too. It’s basically an outdoor mall with a ton of restaurants and rides. Is it enough for a third gate that costs $100+ a day though?

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

True but it’s much easier to build a hotel than it is to find space for a third gate in Anaheim. Why not build a hotel where they want to put the DL side of DL forward west of DL drive? Put the third gate at Toy Story. Expand DCA into Simba lot.

It’s a possibility but Disney probably wants 3 or 4 more hotels, not just one, plus a shopping district that connects them.

I also question whether it makes sense for Disney to spend $10-20 billion adding a third park to DL (or a 5th at WDW) versus spending that money on a new resort, in a new location, that would likely bring a bigger return.

 

[mickEblu]

I don’t think one more small-ish park would fill up rooms in 3-4 more hotels. I only think they need 1-2 max. Between space on their own property and maybe something in the future at Garden Walk or on Harbor if they can get someone across the street to sell. They can also add one in Tomorrowland if they do something cool/ futuristic and build it from the ground up with the land. Using some of the bus transportation area is another option.

I know WDW has more competition out there with Universal but would I think a third gate at Anaheim would move the needle more than a fifth gate at WDW. People already go to WDW for 7+ days. That’s realistically about the max time most people take off for a vacation like that. At DLR, a third gate would make the resort a legitimate five day destination. I’d say the average stay right now is probably three days.

 

[denyuntilcaught]

It’s a possibility but Disney probably wants 3 or 4 more hotels, not just one, plus a shopping district that connects them.

I also question whether it makes sense for Disney to spend $10-20 billion adding a third park to DL (or a 5th at WDW) versus spending that money on a new resort, in a new location, that would likely bring a bigger return.

Adding a 3rd park in Anaheim would only be a fifth of that I'd imagine, versus a $5-8B investment in infrastructure and construction, let alone a heavy lift on marketing to establish differentiation, to launch a new resort elsewhere. The appetite is clearly there in CA.

That said, I agree Disney wants multiple new hotels. Given the smaller scope of the Toy Story lot, regarding park themes I could see them either taking something familiar with a twist (i.e. perhaps a larger scale Fantasy Springs?) or something net new. Westcot, AK, and a DisneySea are all dead ideas when it comes to Anaheim, so that leaves...what?

Whatever it is, I bet they'd integrate a hotel into the design, versus thinking about them as separate entities on separate parcels, again akin to Fantasy Springs.

 

[mickEblu]

Adding a 3rd park in Anaheim would only be a fifth of that I'd imagine, versus a $5-8B investment in infrastructure and construction, let alone a heavy lift on marketing to establish differentiation, to launch a new resort elsewhere. The appetite is clearly there in CA.

That said, I agree Disney wants multiple new hotels. Given the smaller scope of the Toy Story lot, regarding park themes I could see them either taking something familiar with a twist (i.e. perhaps a larger scale Fantasy Springs?) or something net new. Westcot, AK, and a DisneySea are all dead ideas when it comes to Anaheim, so that leaves...what?

Whatever it is, I bet they'd integrate a hotel into the design, versus thinking about them as separate entities on separate parcels, again akin to Fantasy Springs.

Exactly what I was thinking. They could have a hotel be part of a West coast World showcase. Like a TDS/ World Showcase mash up on the Toy Story lot. Or they could build a hotel in Tomorrowland using some of the Eastern Gateway bus expansion area if they have to. If there is enough space they could do a hotel + Fantasy Springs West of DL drive on the Disneyland side. There’s plenty of spots for hotels on their own property.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Adding a 3rd park in Anaheim would only be a fifth of that I'd imagine, versus a $5-8B investment in infrastructure and construction, let alone a heavy lift on marketing to establish differentiation, to launch a new resort elsewhere.

The Universal Orlando Resort South Campus is already in that price range.

 

[Disney Irish]

This is all logical. I’m just getting stuck on the fact that the Toy Story lot is the THEE last chance to get a third park in Anaheim. I’m not sure that’s an opportunity that can be easily passed up. The additions west of Disneyland drive would be expansions to DCA and DL and probably rolled out in phases over many many years. Yawn. If they don’t want to do a third park I think what they should do is just go ALL IN on the DCA expansion and make it a legitimate full day park. They really don’t need to touch Disneyland for years.

Are we really all that convinced that Disney has the desire to build a 3rd gate in Anaheim. Let alone are we really sure that Toy Story is really the last opportunity to do it. It wasn't that long ago that we thought that Disneyland and DCA had no ability to expand beyond its current borders, and yet we now know that couldn't be further from the truth.

For all we know Disney has other areas around the region they could developed if they wanted in order to have a 3rd gate in the future. Plus not to mention that properties around the Resort get put up for sale all the time. I mean how many times has GW been put up for sale in the last decade alone, and may likely be put up for sale again in the future. And wasn't there rumors at one point of them looking at Garden Grove for further land that could be developed.

My point is that I don't think Toy Story is the very last chance to build a 3rd gate. Nor do I really think Disney has any desire at this point to do it anyways. There are a lot of unknowns in the future and plans constantly change.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The Universal Orlando Resort South Campus is already in that price range.

That was kind of my logic, Epic is estimated at around $4 billion but everything Disney does ends up costing twice what it costs everyone else.

Somehow Universal is building a massive new park for slightly more than Disney is spending on the Studio Park expansion in Paris ($2.5 billion).

 

[el_super]

Disney would be wasting a theme park opportunity they may never get again.

Yup. It’s interesting to think about what the theme would be for a third gate.

They're not going to build a third gate. The idea of having an overarching theme for a park died long ago, and building a third gate that just echos the same concepts as DCA and DL would just cannibalize the existing attendance or devalue the resort as a whole. The economics of it just don't make any sense.

Meanwhile, the entire concept of DisneylandForward, of removing the labels of theme park, hotel and entertainment districts in zone planning, gives them a great opportunity to create actual mixed use spaces that work to achieve all three at the same time.

My guess still is: they will start to pivot to mixed use districts full of shops and entertainment and pay-for-play rides and attractions mixed in. Downtown Disney with rides you pay individually for. Genie+ already gives them the infrastructure to start charging for rides directly. Its a concept they were rumored to have considered for Galaxy's Edge (having a separate admission/gate for it) and it has the historical precedent of the old fashioned ticket books.

You also get the best of both worlds as far as attendance goes: high volume free admission to fill your shops and restaurants, but attraction capacity and wait times are managed by direct monetary influence.

Still makes the most sense to me. They could start a "third" district as a shopping/entertainment district and add in rides as needed.

 

[el_super]

That said, I agree Disney wants multiple new hotels.

Maybe but also maybe not? Maybe they just want to build/expand the current setup? Assuming they blew up the hotel district/room requirements in the current DRSP they might be able to build a full size Disney resort in the back corner of Simba, and tear down the old DLH when they're done. There's only so much rennovation you can do.

 

[Consumer]

Yup. It’s interesting to think about what the theme would be for a third gate. You already have the castle park and DHS West/ Disney Universal Studios. I don’t see an AK style park working there. Too small. Not to say it has to be a WDW equivalent but a World Showcase West with more rides could work. Major food and alcohol sales from locals too. It’s basically an outdoor mall with a ton of restaurants and rides. Is it enough for a third gate that costs $100+ a day though?

If it weren't for Galaxy's Edge already existing, I would welcome a theme park celebrating space exploration and science fantasy. It would be a great dumping ground for Star Wars, Marvel, and Avatar.

Alternatively, my personal preference would be a theme park centered around mythology. Ancient religions, classic folklore, local legends, and such like that. It's a vague enough theme where anything from Bigfoot to Spider-Man could be included but tight enough to avoid Pixar Pier.