DisneylandForward

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I’m watching a fresh baked video on DL forward showing the example artwork released and it has me wondering if Disney didn’t put the hotels and shopping area in the Toy Story lot because it is surrounded by apartments.

Had they put a third theme park in the renderings it would undoubtedly have gotten opposition from neighbors and the city.

Could just be a tactical ploy to not anger neighbors, could also be a recognition that building a third gate on that land would be much more disruptive since it’s surrounded by residences and sure to create problems with the city.

 

[Disney Irish]

I’m watching a fresh baked video on DL forward showing the example artwork released and it has me wondering if Disney didn’t put the hotels and shopping area in the Toy Story lot because it is surrounded by apartments.

Had they put a third theme park in the renderings it would undoubtedly have gotten opposition from neighbors and the city.

Could just be a tactical ploy to not anger neighbors, could also be a recognition that building a third gate on that land would be much more disruptive since it’s surrounded by residences and sure to create problems with the city.

I'd imagine that Anaheim would require Disney to put up some type of sound dampening (like added for the west side expansion images) for Toy Story. And that would take up valuable real estate, leaving not enough for a fully fleshed out 3rd gate when you have to include the required infrastructure for the park too. So we'd get what, maybe a land or two with maybe a half a dozen rides. Yeah, a hotel and shopping district sounds more plausible.

 

[TP2000]

It’s hard to believe they would waste the Toy Story parking lot on another DTD. In a perfect world that would be the third gate, DCA would be expanded on the Simba lot and they would just leave Disneyland alone.

That Toy Story lot expansion currently pencils out the best for hotel/DVC expansion that has extra themed dining/retail incorporated into it. It gets Disney more into the convention business with the largest convention center on the West Coast sitting just across Harbor from it.

Think a themed resort area like the Boardwalk/Yacht Club at WDW back in its 1990's heyday with themed dining and retail around a small faux lake.

It's more about the Sharp Pencil Boys wanting more of Anaheim's lucrative convention corporate expense account business than it is anything to do with storytelling or theme parks.

Just putting thoughts out there, but I wonder if it's because it's actually cheaper/more efficient to develop the property west of Disneyland Drive due to close proximity and ease of integrating into existing infrastructure, versus having to develop a third park on the Toy Story lot and basically having to start from scratch? Obviously a DTD East + Hotels requires it's own start up costs, but I feel like they're substantially less than a third park.

These are just musings and probably incorrect, but just a thought.

Those musing are actually a really good point. And definitely a reason why DisneylandForward was put forward. It saves them money by leveraging ride capacity into the two existing parks, and frees up Toy Story lot for all the hotel/convention business they are currently losing out on south of Katella.

 

[TP2000]

I’m watching a fresh baked video on DL forward showing the example artwork released and it has me wondering if Disney didn’t put the hotels and shopping area in the Toy Story lot because it is surrounded by apartments.

Had they put a third theme park in the renderings it would undoubtedly have gotten opposition from neighbors and the city.

Could just be a tactical ploy to not anger neighbors, could also be a recognition that building a third gate on that land would be much more disruptive since it’s surrounded by residences and sure to create problems with the city.

I think you're giving TDA execs too much credit.

The neighbors there are in some of the most crime-ridden and downscale housing in all of Orange County. It's a notoriously gang infested neighborhood, with professional criminal gangs running operations out of that area for the most part.

Certainly, Disney would love to get their hands on all of those low-density yet unattractive housing tracts and bulldoze them into a much larger piece of combined property. But that's going to be a political issue that they'll need to work with Anaheim on, and would likely include eminent domain processes. That's messy in today's political environment in California.

I think that the artwork released for Toy Story is exactly what it looks like and what Disney currently has plans for, without any need to give them undue credit for TDA execs playing 3D Chess when they're really just playing Checkers.

It's a lightly themed hotel/DVC/dining/retail development right across Harbor from the largest convention center on the West Coast, simply designed to get TDA a slice of the lucrative convention business they're currently missing out on.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That was kind of my logic, Epic is estimated at around $4 billion but everything Disney does ends up costing twice what it costs everyone else.

Somehow Universal is building a massive new park for slightly more than Disney is spending on the Studio Park expansion in Paris ($2.5 billion).

While $4 billion is a bit more plausible than the laughable $1 billion some have floated, it is still too low. The days of Universal doing things for significantly less than Disney are long gone. Universal Studios Beijing is the most expensive new theme park currently open (non-adjusted dollars), exceeding the cost of Shanghai Disneyland, and it has a number of clones. When it opens, Epic Universe will be the world’s most expensive new theme park.

 

[TP2000]

I'd imagine that Anaheim would require Disney to put up some type of sound dampening (like added for the west side expansion images) for Toy Story.

Sound dampening are the least of the problems for those unfortunate neighbors.

Here's the crime map for those low-density apartments and trailer homes just east and south of the Toy Story parking lot, right over the 8 foot wall from Disneyland parking. In the past six weeks there's been 152 arrests and citations issued there, and those are only the ones that actually got reported and then actually had a positive outcome by being caught by Anaheim Police.

Imagine the crimes not reported, or that got away. What a fun and festive holiday season this neighborhood has had!

It's a laundry list of human misery and societal decay; sex trafficking, drug sales, meth labs, sex assaults, larceny, car theft, burglary, drug possession, vandalism, gun violations, and plenty of physical assaults. The best thing Disney could do with this redevelopment of the Toy Story Lot is to replace that 8 foot wall with a 20 foot wall.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sound dampening are the least of the problems for those unfortunate neighbors.

Here's the crime map for those low-density apartments and trailer homes just east and south of the Toy Story parking lot, right over the 8 foot wall from Disneyland parking. In the past six weeks there's been 152 arrests and citations issued there, and those are only the ones that actually got reported and then actually had a positive outcome by being caught by Anaheim Police.

Imagine the crimes not reported, or that got away. What a fun and festive holiday season this neighborhood has had!

It's a laundry list of human misery and societal decay; sex trafficking, drug sales, meth labs, sex assaults, larceny, car theft, burglary, drug possession, vandalism, gun violations, and plenty of physical assaults. The best thing Disney could do with this redevelopment of the Toy Story Lot is to replace that 8 foot wall with a 20 foot wall.

View attachment 765186

Crime statistic sidetrack aside, it doesn't change the fact that sound dampening would likely be required for anything that Disney has planned for the future of Toy Story. That takes up real estate of which there isn't a lot available in Toy Story that can be spared. Making an actual 3rd gate prospect probably pretty slim.

So a themed hotel and shopping district makes the most sense for that plot of land.

 

[TP2000]

Disney has gone on record this week saying they want to spend $1.9 Billion in Anaheim over the next few decades with DisneylandForward.

What would that buy us, using today's dollars and the knowledge they spent $1 Billion to revamp DCA and build Cars Land in 2008-2012? Radiator Springs Racers was reported to cost $300 Million in the early 2010's. Star Wars Land was reported to cost $1 Billion in Anaheim. My luncheon napkin math comes up with this for $1.9 Billion.

$200 Million = Toy Story Lot hotels/dining/retail/parking for convention center
$200 Million = DVC/Hotel additions west of Disneyland Drive
$100 Million = Infrastructure/Park Facilities to expand Disneyland & DCA west and over Disneyland Drive
$650 Million = One Land with One E Ticket and One C Ticket for DCA Expansion on Simba Parking Lot
$750 Million = One Land with One E Ticket and One D Ticket for Disneyland Expansion on DTD Parking Lot

And... we're now tapped out. We just spent $1.9 Billion on DisneylandForward. We got two E Tickets, one D Ticket, and one C Ticket in both parks combined. Plus a gaggle of new hotels/DVC and assorted infrastructure work to connect it all.

 

[TP2000]

Or put another way, if you spent $300 Million in 2010 to build Radiator Springs Racers, that would now cost you $424 Million in 2024 dollars.

$1.9 Billion doesn't buy what it used to.

CPI Inflation Calculator

www.bls.gov

 

[mickEblu]

That Toy Story lot expansion currently pencils out the best for hotel/DVC expansion that has extra themed dining/retail incorporated into it. It gets Disney more into the convention business with the largest convention center on the West Coast sitting just across Harbor from it.

Think a themed resort area like the Boardwalk/Yacht Club at WDW back in its 1990's heyday with themed dining and retail around a small faux lake.

It's more about the Sharp Pencil Boys wanting more of Anaheim's lucrative convention corporate expense account business than it is anything to do with storytelling or theme parks.



Those musing are actually a really good point. And definitely a reason why DisneylandForward was put forward. It saves them money by leveraging ride capacity into the two existing parks, and frees up Toy Story lot for all the hotel/convention business they are currently losing out on south of Katella.

Those damn sharp pencil boys! Where were they when Walt needed them!? Yeah I know, the third park is unrealistic but you never know. There is a real finality to them not using the Toy Story lot for a theme park. Are they ready/ willing to make that call now?

 

[Disney Irish]

Disney has gone on record this week saying they want to spend $1.9 Billion in Anaheim over the next few decades with DisneylandForward.

What would that buy us, using today's dollars and the knowledge they spent $1 Billion to revamp DCA and build Cars Land in 2008-2012? Radiator Springs Racers was reported to cost $300 Million in the early 2010's. Star Wars Land was reported to cost $1 Billion in Anaheim. My luncheon napkin math comes up with this for $1.9 Billion.

$200 Million = Toy Story Lot hotels/dining/retail/parking for convention center
$200 Million = DVC/Hotel additions west of Disneyland Drive
$100 Million = Infrastructure/Park Facilities to expand Disneyland & DCA west and over Disneyland Drive
$650 Million = One Land with One E Ticket and One C Ticket for DCA Expansion on Simba Parking Lot
$750 Million = One Land with One E Ticket, One D Ticket and One C Ticket for Disneyland Expansion on DTD Parking Lot

And... we're now tapped out. We just spent $1.9 Billion on DisneylandForward. We got two E Tickets, one D Ticket, and two C Tickets in both parks combined. Plus a gaggle of new hotels/DVC and assorted infrastructure work to connect it all.

Slight correction, that $1.9B commitment is over the next 10 years, not the next few decades. Its also includes tens of millions for street improvements and housing projects over and above that $1.9B, for a total of a minimum of $2.5B over the next decade.

Disney Proposes $1.9B Investment Into Disneyland Resort, Plus Money For Anaheim Parks And Roads

Disney has proposed investing at least $1.9 billion into the Disneyland Resort over the next decade, and will provide Anaheim millions more for housing and parks in a development agreement presente…

deadline.com

Disneyland pledges more than $100 million for Anaheim streets, parks, and affordable housing

In exchange for rights to build new theme park areas, hotels and dining in its existing footprint, Disney is offering several community benefits.

www.ocregister.com

Disney to spend millions on Anaheim streets, parks and affordable housing

Disney is committed to spending millions of dollars on housing, parks and streets as part of a proposed agreement with the city of Anaheim. The company also announced it will invest at least $1.9 b…

ktla.com

 

[mickEblu]

Disney has gone on record this week saying they want to spend $1.9 Billion in Anaheim over the next few decades with DisneylandForward.

What would that buy us, using today's dollars and the knowledge they spent $1 Billion to revamp DCA and build Cars Land in 2008-2012? Radiator Springs Racers was reported to cost $300 Million in the early 2010's. Star Wars Land was reported to cost $1 Billion in Anaheim. My luncheon napkin math comes up with this for $1.9 Billion.

$200 Million = Toy Story Lot hotels/dining/retail/parking for convention center
$200 Million = DVC/Hotel additions west of Disneyland Drive
$100 Million = Infrastructure/Park Facilities to expand Disneyland & DCA west and over Disneyland Drive
$650 Million = One Land with One E Ticket and One C Ticket for DCA Expansion on Simba Parking Lot
$750 Million = One Land with One E Ticket, One D Ticket and One C Ticket for Disneyland Expansion on DTD Parking Lot

And... we're now tapped out. We just spent $1.9 Billion on DisneylandForward. We got two E Tickets, one D Ticket, and two C Tickets in both parks combined. Plus a gaggle of new hotels/DVC and assorted infrastructure work to connect it all.

And to think if they had only spent half of those billions on the parks that they spent on those crappy movies and Disney +

 

[TP2000]

And to think if they had only spent half of those billions on the parks that they spent on those crappy movies and Disney +

No kidding. Disney lost over $1 Billion at the box office in just 2023. But there's no night parade in either DLR or WDW, and no new ride is under construction in either DLR or WDW. The only construction going on is retheming an existing log ride in each park, and then.... crickets.

Incidentally, I just had go back and redo my math on the back of my luncheon napkin. I realized we didn't have enough money for two C Tickets, so we just got 2 E Tickets, one D Ticket, and one C Ticket out of DisneylandForward.

But to stick to that budget, inflation needs to drop to zero ASAP and they really need to get lean and mean with their budgets and design work for both of the expansion plots for DCA and Disneyland. WDI can't be spending this DisneylandForward money on Ritz-Carlton "research trips', free Tesla charging spots, and free Friday meal catering every week.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

$1.9 Billion doesn't buy what it used to.

That’s the sad truth, as I mentioned earlier they are spending $2.5 billion on the Studio park expansion in Paris, it’s a beautiful addition but it’s a lake, a show, and a couple lands with a handful of rides, $2 billion is nowhere near enough to build a complete park anymore.

In Disneys case I wouldn’t be surprised if half of it goes to hotels and shops, that leaves $1-1.5 billion for the parks, at best one amazing galaxies edge style addition per park. Which I’ll be happy to get.

 

[DLR92]

I’d like to see a third park in Anaheim. But the infrastructure to support a third theme isn’t there either. The plot of land is a sad glorified of Disney Springs/Americana At Brand.

 

[BrianLo]

Incidentally, I just had go back and redo my math on the back of my luncheon napkin. I realized we didn't have enough money for two C Tickets, so we just got 2 E Tickets, one D Ticket, and one C Ticket out of DisneylandForward.

Just a small correction, the 1.9 billion commitment does not include parking and infrastructure. It has to be only on visitor attractions (hotels, theme park areas). It also seems to be a commitment to the Disneyland Forward proposal specifically, so only new expansion, not spending within the original boundaries of the parks.

It's also the minimum, minimum commitment. The commitment is technically 2.5 billion or 1.9 billion with penalties. They also could spend well beyond the 2.5 of course.

I actually think the bigger thing (than the fluff of the Disneyland Forward zoning approval) is the political commitment to spend money on it. Not merely to get a developmental agreement and do nothing with it.

 

[BrianLo]

Just as a reality check, I'll put these previous "Official!" announcements from the 2010's here for folks to get excited about...

https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2016/08/new-disneyland-resort-eastern-gateway-coming-in-2018/

Video: Disney Resort to build new 7-story parking structure, elevated walkway ahead of ‘Star Wars’ land

ANAHEIM – Disney intends to construct a transportation hub, a massive parking structure and a pedestrian bridge over Harbor Boulevard connecting them with Disneyland and Disney California Adv…

www.ocregister.com

https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2017/10/new-hotel-disneyland-resort/

Disneyland Resort plans another luxury hotel

ANAHEIM – To take advantage of the city’s new policy giving tax incentives to build luxury hotels, Disneyland officials submitted plans Tuesday to add a fourth Disney-themed hotel at th…

www.ocregister.com

100 percent, tempering expectations is important. Albeit sometimes the tempering desire is so strong these days people minimize it into nothing...

But I don't know why you or no one brought it up. Those projects failed on the back of major political interference. Not seemingly a desire for Disney to carry through the projects. The city council and local businesses basically blocked the eastern gateway. The hotel development was crushed when the council found a loophole that they didn't need to provide the tax breaks because Disney wasn't placing the 4 star hotel exactly where they were supposed to have.

Why this feels so blasé to you is exactly because of this historical context. There is no desire to tip their actual hands this time, they want full approval so their future projects cannot be kiboshed. They don't want more fake art work for people to oppose, they want approvals.

 

[BrianLo]

I’d like to see a third park in Anaheim. But the infrastructure to support a third theme isn’t there either. The plot of land is a sad glorified of Disney Springs/Americana At Brand.

Given the choice I actually think this is a stronger proposal. I think fans are addicted to the idea of extra gates because it leads to a one-time bolus. I don't think extra gates area always healthier or the natural answer. The proposal basically includes an extra gate (or Florida style one at least), just grafted onto DCA and DL instead.

It's exactly the approach Tokyo decided to take in the end and I thought people here treated all OLC/Tokyo moves as religious and beyond criticism?

 

[DLR92]

Given the choice I actually think this is a stronger proposal. I think fans are addicted to the idea of extra gates because it leads to a one-time bolus. I don't think extra gates area always healthier or the natural answer. The proposal basically includes an extra gate (or Florida style one at least), just grafted onto DCA and DL instead.

It's exactly the approach Tokyo decided to take in the end and I thought people here treated all OLC/Tokyo moves as religious and beyond criticism?

That very true, both resorts are landlocked with lack of land being available and expensive to purchase even if there is a way.

 

[SuddenStorm]

This is all logical. I’m just getting stuck on the fact that the Toy Story lot is the THEE last chance to get a third park in Anaheim. I’m not sure that’s an opportunity that can be easily passed up. The additions west of Disneyland drive would be expansions to DCA and DL and probably rolled out in phases over many many years. Yawn. If they don’t want to do a third park I think what they should do is just go ALL IN on the DCA expansion and make it a legitimate full day park. They really don’t need to touch Disneyland for years.

Agreed

They could have not touched Disneyland the last 10 years and we'd be better off.

The less Disney does to it the better- spend the money on rethemes and expansions at DCA where it's needed.