News Disneyland Working on Future Master Plan- includes Theme Park Expansions, Retail/Entertainment Space, and More!

[chadwpalm]

I have always talked about how DCA lacks Layering for better use of the land. I still don't understand how a midget autopia somehow wasn't built within Carsland but its difficult to compare it with Disneyland when it comes up to build. Disneyland has large sections of the park that were built way before many of the new code restrictions. There is no way they would be able to build a section of the park in DCA that for example would be like the old Fantasyland. The brilliant design of being able to put five attractions within such a small footprint by build on top of eachother and using every little corner available. If they were to build that now they would have to include space between the tracks and show sets for escape route that allow room for Disable people to use mobility devices. If they ever make the mistake of closing down one of the fantasyland rides it would be the biggest mistake they could do. The only thing that would fit in those small show buildings would be a small store.

I do believe that WDI has lost touch in some of their design choices. The huge show buildings made for attractions BATB and MMRR seem to be a waste of show space. The gimmick of having cars rolling around a large empty wherehouse with show scenes against the wall are a bad choice. Just have thes evehicles use paths like they used to and get away from large projected showrooms.It worked to WOW people in the Galaxy Edge ride but does not in the BATB or MMRR rides.

You raise some good points. I think trackless can be done well if done right. Have you ever seen the videos of the Symbolica ride at Efteling Theme Park in The Netherlands? Much closer to Mystic Manor than BatB or MMRR when it comes to space. Also, I love that at least 2 or three times in the ride each of the 4 vehicles get a different experience increasing repeated ridability. Pay attention Disney!

 

[chadwpalm]

Does Disney have shell companies?

That's like asking an international spy if they are an international spy.

 

[Ismael Flores]

What nobody's pointing out about that map is they've also extended in-park Disneyland space in the North all the way up to Ball Road. Seemingly splitting up the backstage areas with theme park space in between, and essentially taking out the large merchandise warehouse and parade building that sit there right now.

I wonder if they just went ahead and included that area because its part of the park and not because they intend to expand guest area into that upper backstage area.

They did the same thing on the DCA part of the map, the small backstage area is included in the parks bounderies

 

[Stevek]

I thought that maybe these would help in the conversation about the pieces of land in discussion. Here are the approximate acreage for each plot of land.

Note that even though some bloggers insist that the Toy Story lot is too small for a third park that seems incorrect. In some of the video i have seen they have been using DCA as a comparison to Toy Story lot but neglect to remove that acreage being used by the hotel when comparing sizes.

according to this measuring Device The Toy Story lot is big enough to build a park the size of Toy Story and also have an additional 9 acres for back of house. It is too bad they did not try and buy the land east of this plot that contains a mobile home park. If i remember correctly that land went up for sale a while back. My guess is that Disney did not want to get involve in the dispute going on about making that plot of land a low income housing development.

DCA = 67.86 acres

View attachment 543360


Toy Story Lot = 76.30 acres (Approximately 9 acres bigger)

View attachment 543362


OTHER LOTS BEING DISCUSSED

Possible DCA expansion area illustrated in Drawing = 34.13 acres

View attachment 543374

Possible Disneyland expansion area illustrated in Drawing = 18.41 acres
View attachment 543364


GardenWalk area not counting the hotel properties or fire department building = 16.79 acres


View attachment 543365

Yeah, the Toy Story lot, as is, would be plenty large enough for a 3rd park. The challenge would be that apparently they would not be able to use that entire lot due to Anaheim having the right to extend Gene Autry way right through the middle in order to connect to the Convention Center. So basically that whole southern section would be unusable with regards to a park.

 

[BayouShack]

I wonder if they just went ahead and included that area because its part of the park and not because they intend to expand guest area into that upper backstage area.

They did the same thing on the DCA part of the map, the small backstage area is included in the parks bounderies

In defense of the “expansion space” interpretation, it is arbitrary what they include as “Disneyland” versus “Existing Office Space and Parking” on the map. The latter includes TDA, the TDA structure, and Eat Ticket, which I would all consider office and parking. But it also includes the new Wand and Wishes building (entertainment, rehearsals, etc) and firework launch site, which I would say have more in common with the backstage space labeled Disneyland to its left (parade support and food/merch receiving).

Splitting hairs, but I definitely believe that land is claimable to the park.

 

[Stevek]

Downtown Disney has always been pretty busy, but it seemingly hasn't helped them attract tenants. Yeah, they lost AMC and Rainforest due to the botched hotel plan, but also think about all the retail space that got commandeered by Disney outlets selling more of the same product from World of Disney or the now two Starbucks locations that took up retail space.

So would Disneyfying GardenWalk mean building another iteration of World of Disney? The Disney Home Store? The Wonderground Gallery? The Disney Dress Shop? Marceline's Confectionary? Disney Pin Trader's Outpost?

If those are the things driving the success of Downtown Disney, then wouldn't duplicating them in Gardenwalk just end up cannibalizing their success? Does Anaheim really need more of the same Disney stores?

It's always going to be a question of how much retail Anaheim as a resort, in total can support, and if GardenWalk is the indication... it's less than what Anaheim currently has.

Not really about Disney stores though you could have something unique to add...Disney Springs is quite large with a diverse set of tenants. When I say Disneyfy, it's more about making it "feel" Disney if that makes sense. There's a lot that could go into that whether that's music, landscaping enhancements and yes, potentially some Disney branded shops. But I'm not advocating second versions of World of Disney for example.

 

[Ismael Flores]

You raise some good points. I think trackless can be done well if done right. Have you ever seen the videos of the Symbolica ride at Efteling Theme Park in The Netherlands? Much closer to Mystic Manor than BatB or MMRR when it comes to space. Also, I love that at least 2 or three times in the ride each of the 4 vehicles get a different experience increasing repeated ridability. Pay attention Disney!

wow what a difference, every area filled with sets and visuals. Meanwhile MMRR has so many transitional points that are pretty empty and lead to large rooms with flat pieces and projected walls.

MMRR would have probably been a good candidate for VR glasses. I am not a fan of 3d glasses or VR glasses over real 3 dimensional sets but the design they went for would have worked best if they did use VR glasses.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disneyland has large sections of the park that were built way before many of the new code restrictions. There is no way they would be able to build a section of the park in DCA that for example would be like the old Fantasyland. The brilliant design of being able to put five attractions within such a small footprint by build on top of eachother and using every little corner available. If they were to build that now they would have to include space between the tracks and show sets for escape route that allow room for Disable people to use mobility devices. If they ever make the mistake of closing down one of the fantasyland rides it would be the biggest mistake they could do. The only thing that would fit in those small show buildings would be a small store.

Clear width for a wheelchair is only 36” while clear width for an exit corridor in an Assembly occupancy is typically going to be at least 44”. That ability for mobile persons to get out has to be there but it also only has to be on one side and can be worked around (see rides like Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey where you couldn’t just hop out on your own). Rides can also require transfer from a wheelchair. They’re still allowed to be built close together and on top of each other, they just have to meet the requirements for protection. Companies like Sally Corp still make small dark rides with contemporary considerations.

You raise some good points. I think trackless can be done well if done right. Have you ever seen the videos of the Symbolica ride at Efteling Theme Park in The Netherlands? Much closer to Mystic Manor than BatB or MMRR when it comes to space. Also, I love that at least 2 or three times in the ride each of the 4 vehicles get a different experience increasing repeated ridability. Pay attention Disney!

Symbolica is not a true trackless ride which is part of why it is more efficient in its use of space. The vehicles follow a guide wire so the ride path was designed at the beginning, there was no leaving space for adjustments or a literal big empty room for the sole purpose of showing off the vehicles like in Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway.

 

[chadwpalm]

wow what a difference, every area filled with sets and visuals. Meanwhile MMRR has so many transitional points that are pretty empty and lead to large rooms with flat pieces and projected walls.

MMRR would have probably been a good candidate for VR glasses. I am not a fan of 3d glasses or VR glasses over real 3 dimensional sets but the design they went for would have worked best if they did use VR glasses.

Yeah, definitely two different approaches to the trackless concept. I'm not sure I'd care for VR over practical sets, but maybe some AR would be more suitable?

I've been trying really hard not to knock on MMRR until I've had a chance to experience it myself. Viewing rides through a camera is not the same as viewing them in person. Cameras interpret light differently..especially some of these cameras that can take in a lot more light than the human eye. A lot of those videos are taken with a short focal length, so spaces appear bigger and farther away than they really are. Depth perception is something a single camera lens can't capture. I'm also curious if the waterfall effect is better in person than on camera as well.

So while I think BatB is a lot worse at using space (only three major showrooms with little to look at), I'm going to wait until I ride MMRR to make any final judgments.

 

[mickEblu]

I believe most of the fun stuff that was removed was mostly because of fear of lawsuits. They were simple play areas that in our time no one would consider a threat. Now everything has to be pretty much stupid proof or better yet lawsuit proof. Wouldn't want little Timmy scratching his poor knee. The caves are pretty much the same except for the added pirate effects and the larger additions like the shripwreck didn't replace much of anything.

The fort was gone before that because of Fantasmic

Well it didn’t work because I almost broke my back trying to fit in some of those tight spots in the caves chasing my son. Still love it though.

 

[celluloid]

I think they should give up on it ever being a profitable destination park unless they actually bulldoze the place, at the very least the entire pier area needs to be gone.

I don't disagree. A park that was made with zero sincerity still shows through with its flaws even after some of the changes(and some attractions still doing that)

 

[TP2000]

No questioning the validity of what is written there. But how do shell companies work and why couldn't that third offer be a Disney shell company? Does Disney have shell companies? They definitely had them in the past. Think Walt and purchasing property in Florida. And now? I have no idea, but it's fun to think about!

The third place bidder was not a Disney shell company. It was simply the third place bidder on a failed and struggling mall. And that current owner has far, far less resources and thus ability to rework and transform GardenWalk into a viable and useful part of the Resort District environment.

There is no conspiracy here, or shady shell companies, or secret deal. GardenWalk came up to auction in 2017. The mall literally fell into TDA's lap for pennies on the dollar when the Dubai firm's financing fell through, but Colglazier and Chapek got cold feet and declined to pick up the mall as second place bidders. So it went to the third place bidder as the new owner. And the mall is still a failure. Disney doesn't own it.

That new owner also thinks these little guys at the GardenWalk entrance are a great idea, and very classy.

You can't make this kind of stuff up! It simply is what it is, and is a good demonstration of the disdain too many TDA and Burbank executives have for the front-line CM's. The CM's just aren't worth the investment to them.

 

[Brer Panther]

That new owner also thinks these little guys at the GardenWalk entrance are a great idea, and very classy.

View attachment 543466

Call me crazy, but I actually kind of like those llamas.

 

[It Is What It Is]

There is no conspiracy here, or shady shell companies, or secret deal. GardenWalk came up to auction in 2017. The mall literally fell into TDA's lap for pennies on the dollar when the Dubai firm's financing fell through, but Colglazier and Chapek got cold feet and declined to pick up the mall as second place bidders. So it went to the third place bidder as the new owner. And the mall is still a failure. Disney doesn't own it.

Well that sucks! I trust your info. Oh Disney, you blew it on that one (in my opinion!)

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

DisneylandBackward

 

[unmitigated disaster]

Call me crazy, but I actually kind of like those llamas.

I would cheerfully kidnap them and put them outside my front door.

 

[TP2000]

Call me crazy, but I actually kind of like those llamas.

Um.... they're kind of growing on me too. But don't tell anyone I said that.

 

[Darkbeer1]

STC Management is a long term Strip Mall Investor.(over 35 years).

STC Management - United States | Asset Management, Brokerage, Finance, Leasing, Property Management, Tax Deferred Exchange

STC Management is a full service realty advisory firm specialized in asset and property management, brokerage, finance, leasing

www.stcmanagement.com

Homepage

Stay up-to-date with the latest commercial real estate news, interviews, rankings and analyses.

www.cpexecutive.com

Also, the AGW is actually 4 properties. STC owns the Retail portion, and manages it.

The JW Marriott owners have the second part. the dirt lot on corner of Disney Way and Clementine is another Hotel location. And then there is the 4th part, a timeshare property on the top of the parking structure, owned by Bluegreen. Since the city purchased the land for redevelopment, it has required deadlines to be made, or the city can get the rights back due to default. (The project was called Pointe Anaheim originally).

So the property is complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised that the Disney lawyers advised against the purchase

And of course, UNITE HERE created a multi-year delay in the project.

Judges Issues Final Ruling In Favor Of GardenWalk Hotels Agreement - Anaheim Independent

OC Superior Court Judge David McEachen has ruled against a left-wing activist group’s lawsuit against Anaheim’s economic assistance agreement (EAA) with the GardenWalk Hotels project. As we reported two weeks ago, Judge McEachen issued a tentative ruling against Orange County Communities...

www.anaheimindependent.com

UNITE-HERE Directed Lawsuit's To Cost Anaheim: Over $33 Million In Tax Revenue - Anaheim Independent

Anaheim will lose out on more than $33 million in net tax revenue due to a doomed lawsuit by a UNITE-HERE Local 11-controlled political pressure group that delayed the opening of the 4-Diamond GardenWalk hotels for 6-8 years beyond their planned 2014 completion date. That is millions in critical...

www.anaheimindependent.com

 

[Stevek]

I would cheerfully kidnap them and put them outside my front door.

Something we would have done in high school. I clearly remember the giant Bob's Big Boy showing up on our high school roof on more than one occasion.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

STC Management is a long term Strip Mall Investor.(over 35 years).

STC Management - United States | Asset Management, Brokerage, Finance, Leasing, Property Management, Tax Deferred Exchange

STC Management is a full service realty advisory firm specialized in asset and property management, brokerage, finance, leasing

www.stcmanagement.com

Homepage

Stay up-to-date with the latest commercial real estate news, interviews, rankings and analyses.

www.cpexecutive.com

Also, the AGW is actually 4 properties. STC owns the Retail portion, and manages it.

The JW Marriott owners have the second part. the dirt lot on corner of Disney Way and Clementine is another Hotel location. And then there is the 4th part, a timeshare property on the top of the parking structure, owned by Bluegreen. Since the city purchased the land for redevelopment, it has required deadlines to be made, or the city can get the rights back due to default. (The project was called Pointe Anaheim originally).

So the property is complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised that the Disney lawyers advised against the purchase

And of course, UNITE HERE created a multi-year delay in the project.

Judges Issues Final Ruling In Favor Of GardenWalk Hotels Agreement - Anaheim Independent

OC Superior Court Judge David McEachen has ruled against a left-wing activist group’s lawsuit against Anaheim’s economic assistance agreement (EAA) with the GardenWalk Hotels project. As we reported two weeks ago, Judge McEachen issued a tentative ruling against Orange County Communities...

www.anaheimindependent.com

UNITE-HERE Directed Lawsuit's To Cost Anaheim: Over $33 Million In Tax Revenue - Anaheim Independent

Anaheim will lose out on more than $33 million in net tax revenue due to a doomed lawsuit by a UNITE-HERE Local 11-controlled political pressure group that delayed the opening of the 4-Diamond GardenWalk hotels for 6-8 years beyond their planned 2014 completion date. That is millions in critical...

www.anaheimindependent.com

Were they bidding on the physical mall building or the building plus the parcel?