Disneyland and Disney World lay off 28,000 employees amid pandemic struggles - OCR/SCNG

[el_super]

And I have always treated CM's with kindness and respect, even if I dared to state the obvious here; that their role is an entry-level, unskilled position.

If they are so unskilled, then remind me again why we are crying over all the talent and experience being lost forever?

And please do explain how it is that this sudden concern over losing their talents isn't just being used as some political ploy to point out how terrible it is that we havent just reopened Disneyland.

 

[SoCalMort]

I deleted my comment before TPs response because I remembered that trying to explain is futile because details are meaningless here.

....kind of get the feeling you're just spinning in circles?

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

... just being used as some political ploy...

Political ploy lol. Good God... What goes on in people's minds is frightening.

 

[TP2000]

If they are so unskilled, then remind me again why we are crying over all the talent and experience being lost forever?

And please do explain how it is that this sudden concern over losing their talents isn't just being used as some political ploy to point out how terrible it is that we havent just reopened Disneyland.

They are "unskilled" because they hire 18 year old kids off the street to do these jobs. Granted, the 18 year old kid is very rarely as good of a Jungle Cruise Skipper as that 30 year old guy with a decade of experience. But the 30 year old guy is a good Jungle Cruise Skipper because he's done it for 10 years.

Hell, we were constantly told that John Lassetter was a Jungle Cruise Skipper for a summer when he was in college. But I'd be willing to bet two churros that he wasn't very good, especially in June. Maybe by August he got some timing down better? I doubt he was good. He never did find anyone who had ever taken a photo of him as a Skipper, probably because he kind of sucked and most folks just wanted off his boat so they could go to the Tiki Room instead.

If the terms "unskilled" and "entry-level" are so offensive to you, what would you like to use to describe the CM's paid $15 an hour to serve churros and wipe down tables and ask endless fake race cars full of tourists to pull on the yellow tab?

When Disneyland reopens in 2022, what term can I use to assuage your liberal guilt that a 19 year old girl going to Fullerton Junior College (Go Hornets!) is making $15 an hour working as a part-time shopclerk at The Star Trader? Shall we call her a Locally Sourced Future Leader? How about Supply Chain Expert? Or maybe Frontline Merchandise Executive?

 

[el_super]

If the terms "unskilled" and "entry-level" are so offensive to you, what would you like to use to describe the CM's paid $15 an hour to serve churros and wipe down tables and ask endless fake race cars full of tourists to pull on the yellow tab?

I am not at all offended at the idea that they are entry level employees. I am offended at the idea that those who have not advocated for them to earn more money for the work they do, are suddenly concerned about those unskilled laborers not returning to work. Those two points seem very opposed and as I said, disingenuous.

Perhaps if you are so concerned about them returning to work later, you will advocate now for Disney to significantly raise their wages to convince them to return ... once it is safe to reopen the park of course.

 

[TP2000]

I am not at all offended at the idea that they are entry level employees. I am offended at the idea that those who have not advocated for them to earn more money for the work they do, are suddenly concerned about those unskilled laborers not returning to work. Those two points seem very opposed and as I said, disingenuous.

Perhaps if you are so concerned about them returning to work later, you will advocate now for Disney to significantly raise their wages to convince them to return ... once it is safe to reopen the park of course.

They start at $15 an hour now, even the 17 year olds they hire to be busboys at Rancho Del Zocalo or to fold t-shirts at Rushin' River Outfitters. The federal minimum wage is $7.25, the California minimum wage is $13.

If $15 an hour to start is too low, what dollar amount do you feel Disneyland CM's should start at? Please name the exact dollar amount a CM should start at, so we know where to begin a conversation.

 

[el_super]

If $15 an hour to start is too low, what dollar amount do you feel Disneyland CM's should start at? Please name the exact dollar amount a CM should start at, so we know where to begin a conversation.

There is no point in having a "conversation" on what you think is or isn't a fair wage. What I am suggesting is that you support the idea of increasing their wages in order to recruit back all that talent and experience you are concerned about them losing.

You can support that right?

 

[TP2000]

There is no point in having a "conversation" on what you think is or isn't a fair wage. What I am suggesting is that you support the idea of increasing their wages in order to recruit back all that talent and experience you are concerned about them losing.

You can support that right?

Sure. I can support it so much I know a dollar amount, just off the top of my head. You can't do this?...

I would start Security department CM's at $18 an hour, to compete with TSA.

I would start basic food service and janitor CM's at $17 an hour, to compete with In-N-Out.

I would start retail CM's at $16 an hour, to compete with Trader Joe's.

For the ride operators, I would keep them at $15 an hour because more applicants want to be ride operators than they want to be busboys. See: John Lassetter.

The other more uniquely Disneyland CM's, like Guest Relations and tour guides and ticket takers and such, should start at $17 an hour.

This is all assuming they also get the full compliment of Disney benefits that Shonda Rhimes also got; free maingate pass (but not for their nanny because they are NOT Shonda Rhimes and they must always remember that and know their place!), subsidized college education, discounts on merchandise and food, free swag one or two times a year. Plus really crappy parking, a few clueless TDA execs, and patronizing propaganda that Every Role Is A Starring Role!.

 

[SuddenStorm]

They start at $15 an hour now, even the 17 year olds they hire to be busboys at Rancho Del Zocalo or to fold t-shirts at Rushin' River Outfitters. The federal minimum wage is $7.25, the California minimum wage is $13.

If $15 an hour to start is too low, what dollar amount do you feel Disneyland CM's should start at? Please name the exact dollar amount a CM should start at, so we know where to begin a conversation.

Let me chime in- MIT has a wonderful 'living wage' calculator that scales based on the size of the household. Anaheim's minimum living wage for 1 adult with no children is $15.24. I could be misremembering- but I believe most CM's start at around $15.50 an hour- so just above the living wage for that area. And with a local minimum wage of $12/hr, there's not a minimum wage job in the park!

Of course, some attractions get additional hazard pay. And most table service cooks make more- the food prep and line cooks all make more then the cashiers. I'm glad Disneyland isn't a minimum wage job- in general their employees are expected to maintain a certain demeanor and level of service your Mcdonald's cook isn't beholden to.

 

[TP2000]

Let me chime in- MIT has a wonderful 'living wage' calculator that scales based on the size of the household. Anaheim's minimum living wage for 1 adult with no children is $15.24. I could be misremembering- but I believe most CM's start at around $15.50 an hour- so just above the living wage for that area. And with a local minimum wage of $12/hr, there's not a minimum wage job in the park!

Of course, some attractions get additional hazard pay. And most table service cooks make more- the food prep and line cooks all make more then the cashiers. I'm glad Disneyland isn't a minimum wage job- in general their employees are expected to maintain a certain demeanor and level of service your Mcdonald's cook isn't beholden to.

Interesting!

I was using the $15 an hour starting wage because I remembered Josh D'Amaro touting that in an article over a year ago, before the shutdown. It could very well be a starting wage of $15.50 an hour now in 2020, even though they've been closed since March.

I'm fascinated that those who demand private companies provide a "Living Wage!" often can never detail exactly what that wage should be. I thought I did a pretty good job, off the top of my head just waiting for my artichoke to steam, in that list I provided above.

Can you suggest any changes or edits to that list? Am I off base in your professional opinion as a CM? I'm happy to adjust, if needed.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Sure. I can support it so much I know a dollar amount, just off the top of my head. You can't do this?...

I would start Security department CM's at $18 an hour, to compete with TSA.

I would start basic food service and janitor CM's at $17 an hour, to compete with In-N-Out.

I would start retail CM's at $16 an hour, to compete with Trader Joe's.

For the ride operators, I would keep them at $15 an hour because more applicants want to be ride operators than they want to be busboys. See: John Lassetter.

The other more uniquely Disneyland CM's, like Guest Relations and tour guides and ticket takers and such, should start at $17 an hour.

This is all assuming they also get the full compliment of Disney benefits that Shonda Rhimes also got; free maingate pass (but not for their nanny or their sister because they are NOT Shonda Rhimes and they must always remember that and know their place!), subsidized college education, discounts on merchandise and food, free swag one or two times a year. Plus really crappy parking, a few clueless TDA execs, and patronizing propaganda that Every Role Is A Starring Role!.

Excellent breakdown- especially comparing the roles to similar positions outside the resort.

Tour guides (from what I've been told, I could be wrong) are high demand roles that require some kind of waiting list/seniority/selection process to get placed in. I wish I remembered what the pay starts at for them- but I think they should be at least $20/hr. But I also think that other then a few mandatory talking points, tours shouldn't be scripted and the guides should have enough working knowledge about the park, its history, and what's okay to share to cater the tour to the group's interests. The same goes for those working Opera House/Lincoln- the CM's there should be the more courteous, professional, and knowledgeable in the park, and should be treated as Tour Guides, not attraction CMs like they currently are.

Attractions is tough because of the unions- but I think rides like the Jungle Cruise should pay far more then pressing play over at the Magic Eye Theater. Any attraction where the experience is dependent on the quality of employee should pay more then those that aren't. And, as such, stricter hiring for these roles should be enforced.

I'm curious to see if programs like Disney Aspire continue after Covid is all said and done. D'amaro did a wonderful job starting and furthering multiple cast first initiatives across the resort- and I worry most of these will be forgotten.

 

[TP2000]

Excellent breakdown- especially comparing the roles to similar positions outside the resort.

Well, @SoCalMort recently said he was impressed with how quickly I responded to things, so now I'm kind of under a bit of pressure. And my artichoke is still steaming...

Tour guides (from what I've been told, I could be wrong) are high demand roles that require some kind of waiting list/seniority/selection process to get placed in. I wish I remembered what the pay starts at for them- but I think they should be at least $20/hr. But I also think that other then a few mandatory talking points, tours shouldn't be scripted and the guides should have enough working knowledge about the park, its history, and what's okay to share to cater the tour to the group's interests. The same goes for those working Opera House/Lincoln- the CM's there should be the more courteous, professional, and knowledgeable in the park, and should be treated as Tour Guides, not attraction CMs like they currently are.

Interesting! I hesitate to bump them higher because any tour guide I have ever had anywhere has received a kind gratuity from me. I took a guided tour at WDW about 20 years ago, and although it was tragic and full of lies from the pathetically trained young lady giving the tour, I still tipped her. I would assume that Disneyland tour guides are a tipped position, but if they are not I could go higher on their starting wage.

Attractions is tough because of the unions- but I think rides like the Jungle Cruise should pay far more then pressing play over at the Magic Eye Theater. Any attraction where the experience is dependent on the quality of employee should pay more then those that aren't. And, as such, stricter hiring for these roles should be enforced.

Okay, there's a really good point. In a perfect world I would love it if the Jungle Cruise Skipper was a higher pay scale and thus a higher performance level, by CM's held to higher standards. I could also easily lump the StorybookLand CM's into that, maybe even Railroad and Monorail and Red Car Trolley CM's, or other high-impact roles. But as you say, stricter hiring and thus higher expectations would need to be enforced.

I'm curious to see if programs like Disney Aspire continue after Covid is all said and done. D'amaro did a wonderful job starting and furthering multiple cast first initiatives across the resort- and I worry most of these will be forgotten.

It amazes me how so many here gloss over all the benefits a Disneyland CM receives, and not just the free admission to the parks many times per year for themselves, friends and family. Even if you are not on the Shonda Rhimes Entitlement Plan where your nanny and your sister also gets free admission in your absence, just the free park admission policy alone is worth a few thousand dollars per year for these entry-level CM's. Add in the paid college classes (say that out loud!), and all the other perks and benefits, plus the usual medical plans and 401K that full time CM's get, and it's a very good gig.

Or, we could just complain that it's a hellhole comparable to a Welsh coal mine that keeps CM's mired in poverty for decades with no hope of ever escaping. Choose your own adventure on this one!

My current adventure? Steamed artichoke and Chardonnay time!

 

[SuddenStorm]

Interesting!

I was using the $15 an hour starting wage because I remembered Josh D'Amaro touting that in an article over a year ago, before the shutdown. It could very well be a starting wage of $15.50 an hour now in 2020, even though they've been closed since March.

I'm fascinated that those who demand private companies provide a "Living Wage!" often can never detail exactly what that wage should be. I thought I did a pretty good job, off the top of my head just waiting for my artichoke to steam, in that list I provided above.

Can you suggest any changes or edits to that list? Am I off base in your professional opinion as a CM? I'm happy to adjust, if needed.

I might need to make a slight correction! I messaged a friend who used to work custodial until he was laid off, and he said custodial starts at $15, but they get more if they clean the bathrooms. Attraction might be the same, so I'm not sure where I was getting 'around $15.50' from! I do know table service food preparation made $16.15, and I'm pretty sure the union contract included annual raises.

 

[TP2000]

I might need to make a slight correction! I messaged a friend who used to work custodial until he was laid off, and he said custodial starts at $15, but they get more if they clean the bathrooms. Attraction might be the same, so I'm not sure where I was getting 'around $15.50' from! I do know table service food preparation made $16.15, and I'm pretty sure the union contract included annual raises.

The artichoke turned out beautifully, for those keeping score at home. I'm eating a light late dinner after a big lunch.

I just found this, from CNN Money. The current entry-level wage is $15.45 an hour at Disneyland, but some departments pay higher to start. If you click on this link, hit mute, because CNN Money has some horrible ad that pops up playing loud rock n' roll music.

Disneyland agrees to pay its workers $15 an hour

Unions representing nearly 10,000 Disneyland workers accepted a contract that raises pay to $15 an hour beginning next year.

money.cnn.com

It seems my list of preferred starting wages isn't too far off.

I think the issue comes from some folks who feel a busboy should start at $16 an hour at age 17, which isn't too terribly out of line, but then receive a hefty raise every year for the rest of his working life so that by age 40 that busboy (busman?) is making $30 an hour to keep the tables at Tomorrowland Terrace wiped down.

I guess my thinking is that an entry-level job at Disneyland for $15 to $17 an hour is fine for a college kid aged 18 to 23, but by the time they are in their mid 20's they need to have moved on and found more gainful employment. Or if they haven't, and many can't due to the economy or Covid lockdowns or just needing to pay their own way through college and take 6 years instead of 4, they then shouldn't blame their employer for only paying them $18 an hour to wipe down tables at Tomorrowland Terrace after five years on the job. I would think those CM's with five years of tenure would be happy to have a job that pays $18 an hour to work an entry-level role at Disneyland.

But that's just me. I can be wrong sometimes, but someone needs to prove it to me.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

For good service at WDW stay at Shades You can also get a decent drink there for not much money. Now back to the bickering

Couldn't resist. Any excuse for a good Trek meme.

 

[Travel Junkie]

Isn't it great?!?

No Uhaul shortage in California. That's all a lie that right-wing propaganda like The Guardian invented.

Hewlett-Packard is not at all anything like Hewlett Packard Enterprise, and they were going to remodel that 3rd floor breakroom in San Jose anyway so who cares that they are moving the global headquarters to Texas. This is actually good news for California! It's fine! Those Hewlett Packard Enterprise employees created homelessness! Texas will be very sorry to get all those high-paying white collar jobs! Suckers!

Also, entry-level CM's staffing the Main Street corn dog cart are actually senior executives making $800,000 per year with homes in Newport Coast. And they get a parking spot reserved for them just behind Main Street USA. They aren't entry-level employees at all. They are high paid executives with Master's degrees.

Great isn't the word I would use to describe your contributions.

 

[LastoneOn]

I'm just concerned that the Guardian and SF Chronicle might now be considered right wing propaganda.... we really don't need this kind chaos going into the Christmas season.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Whew, the level of gaslighting in this thread.

 

[el_super]

Sure. I can support it so much I know a dollar amount, just off the top of my head.

The dollar amount isn't the important part, and the fact that you're focusing so much on it, shows that you are not really committed to this idea of keeping talent and experience. Hence the reason I believe your concern was disingenuous.

If you look at this at a purely market driven perspective, as I would guess you would prefer, then nothing has changed: Disneyland still has to compete for labor and at some point when they reopen, they will be just as competitive as they were before. Those CMs who always had the option of working at Trader Joes, In-N-Out or the TSA, will also have the option of returning to Disneyland when it reopens. If the particulars of their decision making when they walked into casting originally, led them to believe Disneyland was the better choice, what exactly would be different the second time? What makes you so concerned for the lost of talent?

 

[el_super]

Basically from:

I doubt Disneyland will ever be the same again, so much talent and experience will have been permanently lost.

To

I guess my thinking is that an entry-level job at Disneyland for $15 to $17 an hour is fine for a college kid aged 18 to 23, but by the time they are in their mid 20's they need to have moved on and found more gainful employment.

In three easy steps....