Disneyland and Disney World lay off 28,000 employees amid pandemic struggles - OCR/SCNG

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
No one's saying it wasn't. But in a Disneyland thread talking about Disneyland entertainment in Orange County, California not Orange County, Florida- what Disney World does or doesn't do is largely irrelevant in Anaheim.
It’s not irrelevant. These threads continually try to make the situation in California out as unique when it is not. The loss of entertainment being made out as only a result of the continued closure of the park. If that were the only reason then it would not have occurred in a place where there are minimal restrictions.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Wow... are you new at this?

Well, I'm definitely not new. But I'm certainly not a union lawyer, or a lawyer of any kind. Decades ago I paid dues to the Teamsters, but that's about the extent of my union experience.

Contracts can be amended if both parties agree to the terms. That's what happened when Disney had to raise wages to $15 an hour. It's what literally just happened when they came to agreements over the terms of the furloughs/layoffs. If Disney decides to raise wages, the union will not disagree.

You're probably right, they could raise wages. But as I remember it when they jumped quickly to $15 an hour a few years ago, they didn't amend the top of the range. So you had tenured CM's that had worked there for a decade making $16 an hour, and brand new CM's who'd just walked in off Ball Road working alongside them for $15 an hour.

If they raised wages even higher, to say $20 an hour to start, that would blow past the upper end of the pay scale in the contract and then everyone would be making 20 bucks an hour regardless of seniority or tenure. That's where I think the union would run into some trouble, don't you?

How is it so difficult to comprehend the issue here, when I have posted it so many times? It isn't about the living wages or what you consider unskilled labor, it's that you are feigning concern over these jobs being lost and the harm to the Disneyland experience being done in a rather obvious assault on the public health closures.

It's pretty obvious you have absolutely no concern over those Cast Members, and your continued dismissal of the one action that would prevent such a lost of talent (raising wages) proves it.

Oh, you got me! That's exactly who I am. For 20 years online I've been a big meanie who hates the CM's and couldn't care less about them. Or not...

I have so much loving, huggable concern for the CM's that I outlined what I think would be a workable pay scale for them in Anaheim, based on comparable outside competitors in the job market who are known to pay noticeably higher wages than most like In-N-Out, Trader Joe's, or some government agencies like the TSA.

Security = $19 to start
Food Service & Custodial = $18 to start
Retail & Resort Services (ticketing, etc.) = $17 to start
Ride Operations = $16 to start


I'm sure there's a few other departments we could think of, the hotel industry alone would add a half dozen pay scales, and some may be higher than that to start. But that's about where I am with what entry-level CM's should be making at Disneyland or DCA. With the very good benefits package they also get, which may not be quite at the high level of the Shonda Rhimes Entitlement Plan, but at least includes lots of free tickets to the park, paid college tuition, medical/dental, plus some cheesy perks like merchandise discounts and occasional swag.

Is your preferred higher pay scale much different than mine? By a dollar or two? Or are you thinking a ride operator at Mr. Toad should start at $30 an hour and a busboy at Tomorrowland Terrace starts at $35 an hour?
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Well, I'm definitely not new. But I'm certainly not a union lawyer, or a lawyer of any kind. Decades ago I paid dues to the Teamsters, but that's about the extent of my union experience.

How contracts work isn't even specific to lawyers or unions. Have you ever bought a car and maybe haggled over the price?

I can't believe you are sincerely learning for the first time that contracts can be amended if both sides agree.



That's where I think the union would run into some trouble, don't you?

Not so long as the unions agree. Disney might have to offer more to the existing CMs too.

Is your preferred higher pay scale much different than mine? By a dollar or two?

I'll type slower this time. It isn't at all about a dollar amount. All you need to do is admit CMs deserve to be paid more and logically Disney will need to pay more to hire them.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
I'll type slower this time. It isn't at all about a dollar amount. All you need to do is admit CMs deserve to be paid more and logically Disney will need to pay more to hire them.

Was a thorough post stating actual dollar amounts that CM's 'should' be paid, each of which was more then they currently are, not enough? Sometimes I have to wonder if you're being contrarian for the sake of it, especially on a topic like this it seems there's actually some common ground on.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Was a thorough post stating actual dollar amounts that CM's 'should' be paid, each of which was more then they currently are, not enough? Sometimes I have to wonder if you're being contrarian for the sake of it, especially on a topic like this it seems there's actually some common ground on.
He isn’t talking about specific wages or a living wage. If Disneyland wants certain types of employees back they will have to compete for them. That’s it. It could mean offering better wages. It mean offering better perks. The means by which Disneyland acquired talent before the pandemic will be the same means they acquire talent after the pandemic.

You can’t say employees don’t deserve a raise and that them staying at their job is important. If it’s important for the current employees to stay then effort should be made to retain them.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
How contracts work isn't even specific to lawyers or unions. Have you ever bought a car and maybe haggled over the price?

I can't believe you are sincerely learning for the first time that contracts can be amended if both sides agree.

Yes, I've done that many times. But once I agree to the contract, I can't go back to the car dealership two years later and ask for the monthly payment to be changed in my favor. They'd laugh me out of the showroom.

I don't think unions are in the habit of negotiating a four year contract, and then going back and re-negotiating it halfway through when the employer suddenly decides to throw out the old pay scale.

That's not how union contracts are designed to work, and that sort of wage discussion is why negotiations happen when the current union contract is about to expire.

I'll type slower this time. It isn't at all about a dollar amount. All you need to do is admit CMs deserve to be paid more and logically Disney will need to pay more to hire them.

You have this notable aversion to actually saying what a CM should be paid to work at Disneyland. I have already shown what higher level of pay scales CM's should have, in my opinion. I have always thought CM's should be paid more. Not to the tune of an additional 20 bucks per hour, but certainly a few extra dollars per hour. I can't remember ever saying otherwise over the past few decades online.

If it's "not about a dollar amount", then what is it? We are talking about dollar amounts, by the way. That's what a wage is, a dollar amount.

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TP2000

Well-Known Member
And don't stop there, I have been waiting for years for the "Living Wage!!!!" crowd to clarify for me (as their goalposts are ever moving), the following:

What specifically is the "Living Wage!!!!" in Anaheim, CA for an outdoor vending cast member who is:

- 18 and living in his parent's house with an allowance
- Single mother of a young child living in an apartment
- Head of household with wife and four kids and a mortgage
- Retired senior citizen who just enjoys having a place to go and talk to people while handing them a popcorn

Is it the same entry level pay for all? Or is "Living Wage!!!!" determined by the person's life choices and "needs" and therefore the employer must pay what they need to support their life choices regardless of the actual skill/experience/market value of the specific job?

Here's my stab at what it takes for a Popcorn Cart CM to support those specific lifestyle choices and life stages;

18 and living in his parent's house = $15 an hour
Single Mother of a young child living in an apartment = $25 an hour
Head of Household with wife and 4 kids and a mortgage = $48 an hour
Retired senior who just enjoys having a place to go, people to talk to, popcorn duties = $15


Disneyland management is aiming to recruit the first and fourth people on that list. And we learned from @SuddenStorm they actually start their Popcorn Cart CM's at $16 an hour now in 2020, while on my pay scale I suggested they start at $17 an hour just to ensure a higher caliber of CM.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Disneyland management is aiming to recruit the first and fourth people on that list. And we learned from @SuddenStorm they actually start their Popcorn Cart CM's at $16 an hour now in 2020, while on my pay scale I suggested they start at $17 an hour just to ensure a higher caliber of CM.

I may have mispoken! I think the qsfb carts are still around $15. The $16/hr applies to food preparation, the folks preparing the food at quick service locations and the folks getting the food ready for the line cooks at table service locations.

It's also worth noting, the $16 came into effect fall of last year, and represented a substantial pay increase for food preps, who were making $12/hr before.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Yes, I've done that many times. But once I agree to the contract, I can't go back to the car dealership two years later and ask for the monthly payment to be changed in my favor. They'd laugh me out of the showroom.
Once you sign the paperwork the dealer is no longer involved in the transaction. So of course they would laugh you out of the showroom. At that point the finance company holds the loan, and you 100% can renegotiate an auto loan just like any other loan. Doesn't mean the finance company has to say yes, just like you don't have to say yes if they offer something you don't like. But IT IS possible.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Yes, I've done that many times. But once I agree to the contract, I can't go back to the car dealership two years later and ask for the monthly payment to be changed in my favor. They'd laugh me out of the showroom.

So you've never re-financed anything? Must be nice to not have to worry about money.

I don't think unions are in the habit of negotiating a four year contract, and then going back and re-negotiating it halfway through when the employer suddenly decides to throw out the old pay scale.

They don't have to renegotiate the whole contract, just update the pay scale page in what is usually referred to as a sideletter.


That's not how union contracts are designed to work, and that sort of wage discussion is why negotiations happen when the current union contract is about to expire.


You do not seem to understand how contracts work.



If it's "not about a dollar amount", then what is it? We are talking about dollar amounts, by the way. That's what a wage is, a dollar amount.

So a couple things here... I have insisted that it isn't about a dollar amount because, as with many things, what is considered a fair and adequate wage, can really be seen as moving on a sliding scale dependent on many factors. What is comical and almost embarrassing is your ignorance in addressing most of these factors in your summary solution of just offering attractions Cast Members $15 an hour. You have completely ignored that higher seniority CMs may already be making over $20 to $25 dollars an hour, you have ignored rates for premium job classifications that can adjust the base wage and also the fact that some attractions are paid a premium just due to the physical nature of the attraction.

So unless you are prepared to start going down the list of how much a trainer at Autopia should be making, what's the point in setting a base wage of $15 an hour? There is none.

But secondly, and probably more important, you are refusing to acknowledge that setting some decree of "I think they should be paid X" ignores other factors that will play heavily into how much they are paid. If Disneyland finds themselves needing to hire back a large collection of CMs that have found other work, Disney will have to compete with those other jobs, and raise their starting wages accordingly. If a lot of those CMs ended up working for local grocery stores that are easily paying $20+ an hour, Disney will also have to offer a comparable wage to lure them back. Some may be happy to return at $15 an hour plus a Main Gate pass (which yes, you also did not factor in other benefits in your "detailed analysis" of how much a churro vendor should be paid) , so it will all depend on what their hiring numbers look like before they make necessary adjustments.

So it does not matter what you or I think the labor of a churro vendor is "worth", because the market will set the rate regardless.

And lastly, if you are really wanting to be supportive of your Cast Member friends, do not discount the pleas for a Living Wage, even if it's something that you cannot fathom or understand. While the concept of a living wage is something that is also nebulous and undefined, the basic premise of lifting people out of poverty, especially people that are willing to work 40+ hours a week, is still a noble goal that benefits Cast Members. It can mean anything from $30+ dollars a week, to, as you suggested "just a few extra dollars per hour" more.

If you really wanted Cast Members to earn a little extra, you wouldn't be laughing at their attempts to do so.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Ah yes...the old "you just don't understand the concept" dodge. Always the escape route when theoretical nonsense is actually put through the filter of the reality of market economics.

But hey, it's fun to dream, I get it. One day employers will pay a churro vendor enough so he can support a wife, five kids, house, car, and a retirement plan. What a wonderful world it will be, comrades!

Yeah see ... you don't get it. It's not about making sure that a churro vendor has enough for a five kids and a nice car. It's about bringing awareness to stagnant wages and giving workers the ability to ask for more. And it has already worked once, when starting wages went from $11 an hour to $15.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

Yeah see ... you don't get it. It's not about making sure that a churro vendor has enough for a five kids and a nice car. It's about bringing awareness to stagnant wages and giving workers the ability to ask for more. And it has already worked once, when starting wages went from $11 an hour to $15.

Careful. Half the arguments here are against the drastic but necessary measures needed to ease the spread of a deadly virus, so don't expect to get very far trying to unwrap the complexities of America's long-term wage decline crisis.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Careful. Half the arguments here are against the drastic but necessary measures needed to ease the spread of a deadly virus, so don't expect to get very far trying to unwrap the complexities of America's long-term wage decline crisis.

A deadly virus? If it's supposed to be that deadly, it should probably try harder for those folks under age 70 with a 99.9% survival rate, or for those over 70 without long-term health problems...

CDC COVID-19 Survival Rates
  • Age 0-19 = 99.997%
  • Age 20-49 = 99.98%
  • Age 50-69 = 99.5%
  • Age 70-105 = 94.6%
 

flutas

Well-Known Member
A deadly virus? If it's supposed to be that deadly, it should probably try harder for those folks under age 70 with a 99.9% survival rate, or for those over 70 without long-term health problems...

CDC COVID-19 Survival Rates
  • Age 0-19 = 99.997%
  • Age 20-49 = 99.98%
  • Age 50-69 = 99.5%
  • Age 70-105 = 94.6%
Yep, 282,000 people (only in the US), or to put it in more Disney-friendly terms for you since that's all you seem to understand: almost a full average week of visitors to Disneyland (5 and a half days), or said another way over 3 days at max capacity of the park, haven't died have they.

If we expand this to the world, we can hit 30 days of visitors to Disneyland! SCORE!

"But but but, they all have long term health problems"

Most Americans have long term health problems.

We can take 1 comorbidity, obesity. 42.4% of the US population is obese, but according to you their lives don't matter because they are obese.

"But they're old!"

People over the age of 65 make up over 10% of the US population, including you. Yet their lives don't matter, right?

It's clear at this point you don't care what you have to say, you just want everything to be open because you are a selfish person who can't see the greater good for all people.
 

LastoneOn

Well-Known Member
Yep, 282,000 people (only in the US), or to put it in more Disney-friendly terms for you since that's all you seem to understand: almost a full average week of visitors to Disneyland (5 and a half days), or said another way over 3 days at max capacity of the park, haven't died have they.

If we expand this to the world, we can hit 30 days of visitors to Disneyland! SCORE!

"But but but, they all have long term health problems"

Most Americans have long term health problems.

We can take 1 comorbidity, obesity. 42.4% of the US population is obese, but according to you their lives don't matter because they are obese.

"But they're old!"

People over the age of 65 make up over 10% of the US population, including you. Yet their lives don't matter, right?

It's clear at this point you don't care what you have to say, you just want everything to be open because you are a selfish person who can't see the greater good for all people.

Talk about wild distortions.

The selfish ones are those that stand on high and decree others must sacrifice themselves "for the greater good". That would be you.

Mask usage has been over 80% since April. Businesses have jumped through every hoop thrown up to get back into business. The people of this state have had their constitutional rights decimated by authority on a scale not seen since the Japanese were interned in WW2.

So continue to cower in your home.
The pinnacle of selfishness is to demand and force others to do the same.
 

flutas

Well-Known Member
Talk about wild *** distortions.

The selfish ones are those that stand on high and decree others must sacrifice themselves "for the greater good". That would be you.

Mask usage has been over 80% since April. Businesses have jumped through every hoop thrown up to get back into business. The people of this state have had their constitutional rights decimated by authority on a scale not seen since the Japanese were interned in WW2.

So continue to cower in your home.
The pinnacle of selfishness is to demand and force others to do the same.

People like you are the reason I'm sitting here mourning my grandfather, who served in WW2. He happily wore a mask, and yet he still got it because someone gave it to him at his once a week outing to the store.

People like you are the reason 282,000+ have died in the US alone.

Continue talking about your rights as people die, but thank god we can go get starbucks DAMN YOU NEWSOM!!!! and take a selfie in front of a mural at DTD.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Yep, 282,000 people (only in the US), or to put it in more Disney-friendly terms for you since that's all you seem to understand: almost a full average week of visitors to Disneyland (5 and a half days), or said another way over 3 days at max capacity of the park, haven't died have they.

If we expand this to the world, we can hit 30 days of visitors to Disneyland! SCORE!

"But but but, they all have long term health problems"

Most Americans have long term health problems.

We can take 1 comorbidity, obesity. 42.4% of the US population is obese, but according to you their lives don't matter because they are obese.

"But they're old!"

People over the age of 65 make up over 10% of the US population, including you. Yet their lives don't matter, right?

It's clear at this point you don't care what you have to say, you just want everything to be open because you are a selfish person who can't see the greater good for all people.

You know 2.8 Million Americans drop dead every year, right? In 2018, it was more accurately 2,839,205 deaths of Americans per the CDC.

I was on this message board in 2018, and I don't remember anyone here asking we mourn the thousands and thousands of Americans dropping dead every day in 2018.

Deaths are sad, funerals are emotional for the loved ones left behind. But we all die, especially when we get old. After about age 80? Humans start dropping like flies, even in the USA. :hungover:

It will be interesting to see what the total death toll for America is for 2020, once the death stats are compiled and confirmed by the CDC a year or so from now. Will it jump by 300,000, or will it trend the same because the average age of death for Covid patients is over the average age of death of 78 anyway?
 
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