News Disney World Cast Member unions to begin week of negotiations for wage increases, healthcare costs and more

[Jrb1979]

That’s fantastic for retail! Are you a manager?

Nope just a regular employee.

 

[flynnibus]

My last few posts here were engaging about the related conversation of generational challenges. Differences in buying power are part of those challenges; previous generations of CMs were able to afford living closer to WDW than current CMs can afford. This results in many additional challenges, like transportation, working a second job, etc. The message of "work harder" in general is fine. I believe many people need to develop a stronger work ethic, and I'm all for self-responsibility. But when this message said in ignorance of the challenges people actually face, it's comes across as condescending and trite.

I don't think you've really quantified these "additional challenges" except infer because things are more expensive, things are harder. Even if you take that as verbatim obstacle, I don't think that connects to "old strategies" don't work anymore.

Continuing that thought.. if the old strategies don't work... What is it you believe that is working for those people who do manage to break out of this pattern?

The reason why you see people coming back to the same points is, because our example worker hasn't exhibited they have tried those things and failed. The example worker and their advocates instead insist the position they are in should work by default. That's the crux of the conflict. People (like myself) point out that not every combination will work and sacrafice is often needed to pull ahead.. while people like yourself advocate that the position they are in should just work as a matter of principal. One side is saying "success is not by default" and you're in effect advocating "success should be available by default".

I'm not clear how my answer would "push more inflationary pressure."

Because the solutions pushed are not on an individual level, but one that tries to push across the board. Across the board (even in just certain segments - like these entry level jobs) inflation of wages will cause more inflationary pressure. Thus undermining the very gain in buying power you are hoping to achieve.

I'm not sold on this 'things are different now so the old models don't work' pitch. As I've mentioned before, I have kids that are in this exact prime Disney starter CM age bracket. College and post-college. The company I am closely associated with hires workers from 16-32 as hourly people in volume. I have my own professional peers I have watched through the years that are all younger than me. It's not like boomers don't have any contact with the rest of the world.

I still see similar patterns - those that do something about their situation are far better off than those that don't.

 

[_caleb]

Well that's the unions to fight for a higher wage for the cast but reality sets in when company and union compromise during negotiations and the unions convince the cast to approve the contract. Both parties will declare victory / Rinse and repeat every few years.

Right. That's how it is supposed to work. But this brings up another aspect of my point: I'm starting to think labor unions are another example of a solution that worked for previous generations, but may be of limited use for today's Cast Members.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Nope, you're still not understanding me. I'm not saying that "it cannot be done." I'm saying that the strategies and solutions for getting it done in the past are of limited use today. I think this is particularly relevant in the discussion about Disney CM pay.

those are the mechanics. Yes, the mechanics of getting ahead may have change but the underlying ideology is the same. If you want to get ahead, you have to actually make a change. whether it's 1960 when folks decided to make a change and boycott an unfair system or 2023 .
yes the strategies that worked in 1960 may not work but the desire to achieve is the same and I'm going to assume that they are at least tech savvy so they have the mechanics necessary to make a change in their lives

Now things are definitely different but harder?? depends on who you ask. so the bottom line is this,
the cm's can keep whining that Disney is unfair and needs to pay a living wage or one can realize that these positions are never going to pay a "living" wage and as I've shown before it's not just Disney.

So let me ask you, by doing nothing (and that's exactly what they are doing because whatever raise they get is NOT going to lift them out of the financial straits they are in) do they expect their lives are going to be different.

isn't that one definition of insanity? doing the same thing expecting different results. so at one point do you say "I am not going to have the life I want working here _______ insert your job of choice so I need to make a change.

 

[KeithVH]

<SNIP>

The reason why you see people coming back to the same points is, because our example worker hasn't exhibited they have tried those things and failed. The example worker and their advocates instead insist the position they are in should work by default. That's the crux of the conflict. People (like myself) point out that not every combination will work and sacrafice is often needed to pull ahead.. while people like yourself advocate that the position they are in should just work as a matter of principal. One side is saying "success is not by default" and you're in effect advocating "success should be available by default".

</SNIP>

 

[eliza61nyc]

I work for a retailer. I guess $30 an hour with a bonus of $3200 every 6 months isn't good enough for you.

??? i'm not sure what that means, I don't work for disney nor retail. I'm actually retired. now could I live on 30 bucks an hour? nope but I live in one of the most expensive cities in the country, my properties taxes are fast approaching 2 grand a month but again I recognized really really quick that my entry level retail job would not have paid the bills. I did not say my employer owed me the ability to pay the rent, or my salary had to have a certain standard of living simply because I worked 40 hours.

 

[Jrb1979]

??? i'm not sure what that means, I don't work for disney nor retail. I'm actually retired. now could I live on 30 bucks an hour? nope but I live in one of the most expensive cities in the country, my properties taxes are fast approaching 2 grand a month but again I recognized really really quick that my entry level retail job would not have paid the bills. I did not say my employer owed me the ability to pay the rent, or my salary had to have a certain standard of living simply because I worked 40 hours.

It's not my fault you live in such a high priced city. With the way the cost of everything is now, very few people can afford to do it on their own. It takes minimum of two people to be able to afford a decent place to live and groceries.

I will say at least the company I work for believes different then you. They have always been about treating the employees well with amazing benefits and paying them well.

 

[_caleb]

I don't think you've really quantified these "additional challenges" except infer because things are more expensive, things are harder. Even if you take that as verbatim obstacle, I don't think that connects to "old strategies" don't work anymore.

Thanks for writing it out this way. I think I'm tracking with you now.

In another post (responding to someone else), I mentioned one example of "new" things that make life different for workers today (really trying to avoid the word "harder," because it's not a competition and I think every generation faces some basic human challenges and some challenges unique to their time/circumstances): AirBnB–especially in Central Florida–has led to super high rent. CMs used to be able to afford to live closer to WDW than most can today. Longer commutes eat into work/school options. Again, not harder, but different.

Continuing that thought.. if the old strategies don't work... What is it you believe that is working for those people who do manage to break out of this pattern?

For some people the old strategies work because they've had something of a head start in certain areas (inherited wealth, good education, business connections, possibility of living with parents, etc.) I don't think ALL of the "old strategies" NEVER work anymore, just that as the wold changes, they become less consistently reliable.

The reason why you see people coming back to the same points is, because our example worker hasn't exhibited they have tried those things and failed. The example worker and their advocates instead insist the position they are in should work by default. That's the crux of the conflict. People (like myself) point out that not every combination will work and sacrafice is often needed to pull ahead.. while people like yourself advocate that the position they are in should just work as a matter of principal. One side is saying "success is not by default" and you're in effect advocating "success should be available by default".

But that's not what I've been saying. It's not what I've been trying to say, anyway. I'm saying that the lowest/starting pay at Disney can only help everyone involved: Disney, CMs, and guests. I'm saying that the system needs adjustment in order for "work hard and you might possibly succeed" to be true for more people. And as a Disney parks fan, I want the business to to succeed.

Because the solutions pushed are not on an individual level, but one that tries to push across the board. Across the board (even in just certain segments - like these entry level jobs) inflation of wages will cause more inflationary pressure. Thus undermining the very gain in buying power you are hoping to achieve.

This is a theory, but I don't think it is proven true. If CM pay is increased, CMs would be more likely to own homes closer to WDW, they'd be paying property taxes and have more time at home to pump money into the local economy. Short commute times correlate with increased happiness. Happy CMs make for happy guests!

I'm not sold on this 'things are different now so the old models don't work' pitch. As I've mentioned before, I have kids that are in this exact prime Disney starter CM age bracket. College and post-college. The company I am closely associated with hires workers from 16-32 as hourly people in volume. I have my own professional peers I have watched through the years that are all younger than me. It's not like boomers don't have any contact with the rest of the world.

I certainly don't think boomers are disconnected from the rest of the world! I just think our experience colors how we see the world around us. I also think "Boomers" are still largely responsible for the systems of our economy; they set the rules.

Other ways things have changed for CMs today vs. previous generations (again, not a competition, just different and might need different solutions and strategies):

• Greater mechanisms for predatory lending has led to greater debt (I know, "personal responsibility"). But if people are getting into debt because they are being lied to, we might want to rethink the system.
• Competition: this generation is the most educated ever. Without a college degree, you cannot compete like you could in previous generations.
• The Great Recession hit just as this current generation of adults were entering the workforce. This set them back quite a bit.
• Boomers are hanging on to upper-level and higher-paying jobs much longer than previous generations. There's far less room to advance when the bosses hold those seats well into their later years.
• Technology CMs now have to use and support technologies that previous generations never had to deal with. Even ride ops have to answer questions about MDE/Genie on iPhones, Android, etc.
• Crowds are greater, guests are paying MUCH more to come to the parks, perks are being removed, hours are longer (thanks to special events), policy changes (change into costume on your own time!) etc.
• Threat of violence has increased, awareness of mental illness is greater, guest needs are greater

These are "new" challenges workers face today.

 

[eliza61nyc]

It's not my fault you live in such a high priced city. With the way the cost of everything is now, very few people can afford to do it on their own. It takes minimum of two people to be able to afford a decent place to live and groceries.

I will say at least the company I work for believes different then you. They have always been about treating the employees well with amazing benefits and paying them well.

THAT'S THE POINT!! You are so right it's not your fault. I made the decision to stay here, I had a choice. Now try passing that along to the cm's. It's not Disney's fault nor is it their responsibility to ensure I could live in Philly or New York or Orlando. Now actually from what I can tell for the positions listed Disney pays on par with everyone else, maybe a little more. from what I heard though their benefits suck. I too had a decent company, and how did I get there?? I left mcdonalds and macy's and found out what I needed to, to get the job with the good pay and the great benefits.
Was it easy?? oh hell naw!!

 

[Lilofan]

Right. That's how it is supposed to work. But this brings up another aspect of my point: I'm starting to think labor unions are another example of a solution that worked for previous generations, but may be of limited use for today's Cast Members.

Right to work state FL is a slight barrier. Also on 5% of workers in the South are unionized.

 

[_caleb]

those are the mechanics. Yes, the mechanics of getting ahead may have change but the underlying ideology is the same. If you want to get ahead, you have to actually make a change. whether it's 1960 when folks decided to make a change and boycott an unfair system or 2023 .
yes the strategies that worked in 1960 may not work but the desire to achieve is the same and I'm going to assume that they are at least tech savvy so they have the mechanics necessary to make a change in their lives

Why do you assume people aren't working hard to make change?

Now things are definitely different but harder?? depends on who you ask. so the bottom line is this,
the cm's can keep whining that Disney is unfair and needs to pay a living wage or one can realize that these positions are never going to pay a "living" wage and as I've shown before it's not just Disney.

Right. It's not a competition for who has a harder life. It's different. But I don't understand why you frame contract negotiations and "whining." And I don't understand how any Disney parks fan would be against higher-paid CMs.

So let me ask you, by doing nothing (and that's exactly what they are doing because whatever raise they get is NOT going to lift them out of the financial straits they are in) do they expect their lives are going to be different.

If a CM starts at $15/hr. At that point, it's a race for the CM to learn the job, develop the skills, and prove their value so that they can begin to take on more responsibility (and therefore higher pay). For some, they can tough it out at $15 for a year or two by living in mom's basement. Others, however, are still in school or have to work a second job to make ends meet. If that starting wage was increased to $20/hr. the runway is longer and less dire. Many more CMs will be able to make that work for long enough to learn the job, develop the skills, and prove their value.

isn't that one definition of insanity? doing the same thing expecting different results. so at one point do you say "I am not going to have the life I want working here _______ insert your job of choice so I need to make a change.

Again, you make it sound like Disney CMs are not hard working, dedicated, driven, or conscientious. That's not been my experience.

 

[_caleb]

Todays "kids" are no more lazy or ambitious that previous generations. Give the current generation more credit. There are success stories everywhere, but it seems negative news is what sells.

Wait-I thought I was the one saying that the kids are not lazy and that they are ambitious...

 

[dovetail65]

That’s fantastic for retail! Are you a manager?

If you think it is relevant today Mar 1st, 2023 17.50 in Canadian dollars is 12.86 in US dollars. I am not so sure that 17.50 quoted is in US dollars, maybe it is, but I wasn't clear on that. Friends I have in Canada always indicate to me we make more money here when cost of living is factored in, but that could just be my group of friends in Canada as well. Canada is big and spread out and I am sure it is similar to the USA where the cities cost more to live but pay substantially more than out in the boonies too. It is too hard to generalize anyone's pay and compare.

The major problem in Florida is the growth of population is faster than the homes and apartments and even roads begin built. When a 1 bedroom goes from 800.00 to 1700.00 plus in 5 years right across the street from where I live in the Orlando area because of lack of availability there is no way wages can catch up. Wages don't increase because there aren't enough homes, that is the employees problem.

Right now CM's have to move much further away from the parks becasue of this issue and they still pay more than ever before for their apartments or homes. Even the College program where the kids live on site hardly have any money at all after the apartments are paid for and exactly why both my kids refused Disney's offers.

In 5 years I believe the cost of living will settle here in the Orlando area, but until the home and apartments availability outpaces the people moving here it's just going to be tough for anyone starting out in life or starting at the bottom of any company fresh to make it here. We can expect fair pay, but asking for a raise to match what is happening in Orlando for the reason of lack of availability is not fair to any busineses. When the prices reduce in 5 years does the business get to reduce the pay back down lower? 18 an hour for me is the sweet spot, WDW should just pay that and get it over with.

 

[Nubs70]

Where I work you start at $17.50 but get a $1 raise every 1000 hours worked.

Wish I got a $1/1000hr raise

 

[eliza61nyc]

Why do you assume people aren't working hard to make change?

Right. It's not a competition for who has a harder life. It's different. But I don't understand why you frame contract negotiations and "whining." And I don't understand how any Disney parks fan would be against higher-paid CMs.

If a CM starts at $15/hr. At that point, it's a race for the CM to learn the job, develop the skills, and prove their value so that they can begin to take on more responsibility (and therefore higher pay). For some, they can tough it out at $15 for a year or two by living in mom's basement. Others, however, are still in school or have to work a second job to make ends meet. If that starting wage was increased to $20/hr. the runway is longer and less dire. Many more CMs will be able to make that work for long enough to learn the job, develop the skills, and prove their value.

Again, you make it sound like Disney CMs are not hard working, dedicated, driven, or conscientious. That's not been my experience.

Oh I definitely believe they are hard working, dedicated, driven etc . I guess one of the reasons that I bring that up is because they original two articles that I saw both of the people in the article said they were disney employees for 10 years. One guy said he has worked for the mouse world for 10 years without a significant raise. and then someone posted a bernie sanders interview were he was saying the same thing.

lol and of course we have Abigal Disney herself.

 

[Jrb1979]

If you think it is relevant today 17.50 in Canadian dollars is 12.86 in US dollars. I am not so sure that 17.50 is in US dollars, maybe it is but I wasn't clear on that. Friends I have in Canada alwsy indicate to me we make more money here when cost of living is factored in, but that could just be my group of friends in Canada as well.

Cost of living is much cheaper in the US for the most part. A good example is the price of gas. Where I am it's $5.50 a gallon.

 

[_caleb]

Oh I definitely believe they are hard working, dedicated, driven etc . I guess one of the reasons that I bring that up is because they original two articles that I saw both of the people in the article said they were disney employees for 10 years. One guy said he has worked for the mouse world for 10 years without a significant raise. and then someone posted a bernie sanders interview were he was saying the same thing.

I supposed that may have influenced your perspective on the issue.

But I bet the CM who's been at Disney for 10 years is a pretty good employee. He obviously knows the ins and outs of the job and he hasn't been fired. As we've been discussing, things have changed quite a bit in the last 10 years. I would imagine he's looking at other opportunities at this point, and negotiating is his way of saying, "I know how much my work is worth–if you want to keep me, here's how much it'll take."

Of course Disney can say no. But as I keep saying, replacing 10 year veterans with new, "unskilled" workers isn't really a great solution for anyone.

 

[Lilofan]

Cost of living is much cheaper in the US for the most part. A good example is the price of gas. Where I am it's $5.50 a gallon.

But when you live in Canada you have socialized public health care. In the USA we have to deal with in network out of network doctors and very expensive deductibles and co pays. If one buys private insurance it is even more expensive.

 

[eliza61nyc]

I supposed that may have influenced your perspective on the issue.

But I bet the CM who's been at Disney for 10 years is a pretty good employee. He obviously knows the ins and outs of the job and he hasn't been fired. As we've been discussing, things have changed quite a bit in the last 10 years. I would imagine he's looking at other opportunities at this point, and negotiating is his way of saying, "I know how much my work is worth–if you want to keep me, here's how much it'll take."

Of course Disney can say no. But as I keep saying, replacing 10 year veterans with new, "unskilled" workers isn't really a great solution for anyone.

so i guess my general comments are these. I am a really big advocate of taking control of your own life so that of course will very much color my thoughts

• we've been at this living wage thing for a minute., maybe it would be nice if every job paid wages that allowed it's employees a middle class life style but that's not reality. nor was it ever reality.
• whether you agree or not society has deemed some jobs "un skilled" or low wages. hospitality unfortunately is some of the poorest paying gigs in this country. does not mean the employee is not a great guy or gal nor works hard. it means the job is not going to support a great standard of living. I don't care how many hours someone works there.
• from what I've read the union was offered a $1.00/hr raise to 16 hour starting salary (as of feb 17th, got this off of the union website)
• obviously Disney doesn't mind having to replace workers, again yes need workers but the reality is the parks are operating fine.
• In a year with rampant inflation and skyrocketing housing cost, the company only offered a 1.00/hr raise. that right there is an indication of how much they value that 10 year employee. So that great 10 year veteran has got to ask himself "can I live a life financially that I think is okay" and he has to accept that, for the foreseeable future his wages are not going to keep pace with inflation

all of the above is public information, so sorry again if a person choses to accept that job and choses to stay, imo they cannot say it's the companies fault. I do think they will get to 17.00 hour. I do not think they will get to 22 bucks an hour.

I don't work at Disney, nor do I live in florida, this is just my guess with a very hazy crystal ball

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Again, you make it sound like Disney CMs are not hard working, dedicated, driven, or conscientious.

Yes, that’s what is especially troubling about some of these posts. Working hard should not be rewarded. Only be “smart enough” to leave Disney should = a reward.

I guess one of the reasons that I bring that up is because they original two articles that I saw both of the people in the article said they were disney employees for 10 years.

You’d be completely shocked if you attended a cast appreciation night. They fill the park with CM’s that have been there 25 and more years.

But as I keep saying, replacing 10 year veterans with new, "unskilled" workers isn't really a great solution for anyone.

Nor is it an option! Disney is already short staffed - where would they get the replacements?

whether you agree or not society has deemed some jobs "un skilled" or low wages.

Based on my personal observations the most unskilled employee at Disney is the ceo! But that’s just me. *sips tea*

Seriously though, society, as a history, deems many things incorrectly. And as people learn and evolve, society changes. That’s a good thing!