News Disney World Cast Member unions to begin week of negotiations for wage increases, healthcare costs and more

[_caleb]

So you seem to think it's unfair that the CEO get more than the frontline workers

Nobody is saying this

 

[_caleb]

So nice to see you admit that starting wages should be lower.

Wait—did you honestly think anyone here was advocating for all CMs to make the same amount, no matter what their position or longevity is?

 

[eliza61nyc]

Thanks for engaging! I enjoy the discussion.

We hear this perspective often around here: “People these days don’t want to work hard!” or “People these days aren’t resilient.” I’m sure it might feel like it, but for the post part, this simply isn’t true. In reality, the world has changed.

The cost of living has gone up dramatically, and wages have not kept up. A dollar his harder to earn and doesn’t go as far and what it can buy is of lower quality. Things that are good for us are far more expensive than things that are not. On average, our health is poorer, but health care is more expensive (and less accessible) than ever. It’s easier than ever to be taken advantage of or made a victim of a crime. It’s turning out that a great many of those held up to be examples of hard work, moral courage, or business leadership are being revealed as frauds, liars, and thieves. Older folks have insisted on holding onto positions of power (Bob Iger), leaving the next generation without a seat at the decision-making table. The current generation is having to live with the consequences of the actions of the previous generation.

So we have a generation that has learned to navigate these realities. (By the way, @RobWDW1971, Millennials are more likely than any previous generation to change jobs.)

On the other hand, I think some of what seems like “this generation isn’t willing to work hard like we did!” may come from the fact that younger generations are smart. They’re looking at the way things were done in the past and wanting a better way. Why would a generation want to work themselves into the debt, poor health, broken families and communities, anger, fear, environmental damage that the previous generation did? Why work in a broken system that only seems to make the rich richer?

The kind of people—from multiple generations—who actually want to be Cast Members after actually doing the job, are telling Disney that they need a pay increase, health care, and other benefits in order to do the job well and also be happy, heathy, and whole. This isn’t entitlement, it’s a feedback loop. Disney can decide to keep wages low, and these CMs will leave for greener pastures. But as a fan and formerly-frequent guest, I think raising CM pay would be good for the Company, the CMs, and for guests.

and they'll get one. they got one the last time.

My contention is that Disney is not artificially "keeping" wages "low". Disney is keeping wages in line with what we (society) as determined these positions to be worth. As I said, you come up north and work food service, customer service etc your salary is going to be in the pitts. How about us encouraging these youths to not get stuck in these jobs with horrible entry level salaries

If I'm a cm and I love my job I do have to accept that in staying I am giving up some things. Vegas is about the only place I can think of where service industry is decently paid. Maids in New York city are low paid. Now maybe the marriotts and the hiltons could afford to bump up salaries but it's never going to afford what I would call a decent style of living. If you love your job at Walmart that is great but please be realistic and honest that it is not going to pay a lot of bills and whether or not Walmart can afford to pay a so called living wage is moot.
They are not going to pay what the staff feels is a living wage, they are going to pay what the industry says is normal.

I totally admit, I encourage anyone unhappy to leave, while wdw maybe understaffed they have found a way to carry on. Until that changes they will continue to give standard raises, I'm betting the union will settle on 3-5% spread out over the course of a few years

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

How about us encouraging these youths to not get stuck in these crappy positions.

why is working at wdw a crappy position?

 

[el_super]

Wait—did you honestly think anyone here was advocating for all CMs to make the same amount, no matter what their position or longevity is?

Absolutely. Wouldn't you have to be consistent? Otherwise any argument that CMs deserve "a living wage" would fall apart. You worry that CMs are being treated as replaceable, but since that only applies to a certain percentage of the CMs, now you have to pivot your argument to which percentage of CMs it is acceptable to offer lower wages.

 

[eliza61nyc]

why is working at wdw a crappy position?

What I mean any position that one feels that you are not paid enough and you can't survive.
Maybe crappy is not the correct adjective. Lol I'm running out of them though. I can't say "entry level, low paying or non skilled"

Okay I went back and edited it to.
These great jobs that have entry level salaries.

Lol somehow I get the feeling your playing Symantecs.

 

[_caleb]

and they'll get one. they got one the last time.

My contention is that Disney is not artificially "keeping" wages "low". Disney is keeping wages in line with what we (society) as determined these positions to be worth. As I said, you come up north and work food service, customer service etc your salary is going to be in the pitts. How about us encouraging these youths to not get stuck in these crappy positions. If I'm a cm and I love my job I do have to accept that in staying I am giving up some things. Vegas is about the only place I can think of where service industry is decently paid. Maids in New York city are low paid. Now maybe the marriotts and the hiltons could afford to bump up salaries but it's never going to afford what I would call a decent style of living. If you love your job at Walmart that is great but please be realistic and honest that it is not going to pay a lot of bills and whether or not Walmart can afford to pay a so called living wage is moot. They are not going to pay what the staff feels is a living wage, they are going to pay what the industry says is normal

Disney isn’t the only one keeping wages low, but as a global brand and major employer in Central FL, it’s definitely part of the problem. There is no “we.” There’s a multi-billion dollar company with multi-millionaire executives, low-wage CMs, and us, the consumers. And we all have interests in the question of wages.

Absolutely. Wouldn't you have to be consistent? Otherwise any argument that CMs deserve "a living wage" would fall apart. You worry that CMs are being treated as replaceable, but since that only applies to a certain percentage of the CMs, now you have to pivot your argument to which percentage of CMs it is acceptable to offer lower wages.

I’m not arguing, just discussing. And there’s no “pivot,” just different aspects of the issue to discuss.

I’m saying that what is considered “entry level pay” should be raised—especially at Disney, where those CMs are vital to what Disney is selling to me. I’m not saying that CMs should be hired at the same pay as someone who’s been at the company for twenty years, or someone who has much greater responsibility. I’m all for high standards and expectations, and for rewarding merit, skill, and longevity.

If a career at Disney is a ladder to climb, I’m saying that the bottom rungs are too low and spaced too far apart.

 

[flynnibus]

So we have a generation that has learned to navigate these realities. (By the way, @RobWDW1971, Millennials are more likely than any previous generation to change jobs.)

Note that story doesn’t say millennials are more active at switching jobs to get better jobs - but in fact just reports they don’t stay in jobs snd goes onto to report their low engagement at work. Aka that number is just as much reporting people losing their jobs or quitting - not necessarily climbing up

 

[flynnibus]

Each year on the job you learn to do a better job in your role and that makes you more efficient.

But that flatlines… and generally pretty quickly in most entry level jobs. And efficiency doesn’t make the job deliver more.

If your job is to keep the bathroom clean… if the bathroom is always clean… where do you go from there? You don’t keep improving the bathroom- eventually you are just ‘the job is done and ontime’

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

What I mean any position that one feels that you are not paid enough and you can't survive.
Maybe crappy is not the correct adjective. Lol I'm running out of them though. I can't say "entry level, low paying or non skilled"

Okay I went back and edited it to.
These great jobs that have entry level salaries.

Lol somehow I get the feeling your playing Symantecs.

I feel like any full time job (asking for full time work) should be paid fairly. That doesn’t mean you get paid “just for showing up” - Bob Iger doesn’t get 40 million just for showing up. He has to do his job to get that. Same with a day 1 cast member.

You agree that these jobs are “crappy” because of the pay correct? “But we as society says that someone who is unskilled doesn’t deserve more pay.”

Oh… so these CM’s should go to college so they can get a respected job and make more money… like teachers! Oh wait… teachers don’t make anymore money?

So really the answer is that the CM’s should go on to play professional sports, or start an onlyfans cause THAT is what society really values?

(Sorry I went off on a soapbox there… haha)

 

[flynnibus]

why is working at wdw a crappy position?

Long commutes
High expectations
Outdoor environments
Strict dress codes
Inflexible schedules
Difficult to get full time
Weak union
Wanting platinum value for bronze pay

 

[el_super]

I’m saying that what is considered “entry level pay” should be raised—especially at Disney, where those CMs are vital to what Disney is selling to me.

So you're making an assumption that higher pay = more of the kind of service you want to see.

I am saying that, since some of those front line CMs are paid significantly more than the entry level ones, you should be able to obtain that same level of service that matches your expectations, without significant increases to the entry level wages.

What percentage of the CMs today are offering the level of service that you find acceptable?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

But that flatlines… and generally pretty quickly in most entry level jobs. And efficiency doesn’t make the job deliver more.

Yes it does. A more efficient popcorn seller will sell more popcorn and waste less product and will also provide quicker service to guests.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Okay so here's my philosophical question of the day. Now I'm not familiar with Orlando's cost of living so if Disney offered every front line CM the same living wage, do you think that would fix their problems and would it have on the parks

 

[_caleb]

But that flatlines… and generally pretty quickly in most entry level jobs. And efficiency doesn’t make the job deliver more.

If your job is to keep the bathroom clean… if the bathroom is always clean… where do you go from there? You don’t keep improving the bathroom- eventually you are just ‘the job is done and ontime’

Again with reducing a job to component tasks.

A Disney World CM whose job is to keep the bathroom clean should absolutely keep the bathroom clean. Within this role, she should eventually take on responsibility to order supplies, manage other workers, etc. But because this is Disney World, she should also develop related skills—guest interaction, security, etc. And she should be encouraged to provide proactive solutions, maybe suggest ways to improve processes, implement better tools and equipment, adopt different schedules, save time/money, make the guest experience the best it can be.

This is the kind of CM we should want at Disney parks, not someone who simply wipes down sinks and watches the clock, and collects a paycheck. And all of these things are possible from someone who actually does the work of cleaning the bathrooms day in and day out, and is invested in the success of the company. The longer this person is a CM, the better acquainted they are with the real work, what’s been tried before, and how they might improve.

BTW, the best ideas lost when this worker leaves for a better job elsewhere.

 

[_caleb]

So you're making an assumption that higher pay = more of the kind of service you want to see.

Yes. Well, not only higher pay, but all that comes with that higher pay. When you pay more, CMs have more to lose. They also don’t have to work a second or third job that compete with their ability to do their job. Increased pay corresponds to higher morale, greater personal investment, higher productivity, lower stress, and less conflict.

I am saying that, since some of those front line CMs are paid significantly more than the entry level ones, you should be able to obtain that same level of service that matches your expectations, without significant increases to the entry level wages.
What percentage of the CMs today are offering the level of service that you find acceptable?

In my opinion, you’re asking the wrong questions. It should not be “how little can we get away with paying people before guests complain stop giving us money?” It should be, “how much can we pay people so that we have an endless supply of the world’s best CMs and provide the greatest, safest, most cost-effective service possible?” The answers to these questions are not the same.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes it does. A more efficient popcorn seller will sell more popcorn and waste less product and will also provide quicker service to guests.

Than a green one… yes. But only to a certain point — hence… flatlines. once that stand is operating at full efficiency- that’s it. They don’t keep growing that stand and there is no more efficiency to be had. It’s a stand that will make approx x a day, snd you have an employee that won’t be a drag on that.

To get more out of that employee you need to put them into a bigger role.

 

[el_super]

Yes. Well, not only higher pay, but all that comes with that higher pay. When you pay more, CMs have more to lose. They also don’t have to work a second or third job that compete with their ability to do their job. Increased pay corresponds to higher morale, greater personal investment, higher productivity, lower stress, and less conflict.

Have you personally witnessed the difference between services levels in higher paid CMs versus lower paid CMs? For two people in generally the same role (Attractions) have you noticed a difference?

In my opinion, you’re asking the wrong questions. It should not be “how little can we get away with paying people before guests complain stop giving us money?” It should be, “how much can we pay people so that we have an endless supply of the world’s best CMs and provide the greatest, safest, most cost-effective service possible?” The answers to these questions are not the same.

Do you think there is a point where there are diminishing returns though? Just hypothetically: if you increase pay 200% would you receive a 200% increase in the service level?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Have you personally witnessed the difference between services levels in higher paid CMs versus lower paid CMs? For two people in generally the same role (Attractions) have you noticed a difference?

At Disneyland, I notice an increase in quality between the roles that typically have more senior frontline CM’s because of desirability - Main Street Vehicles and Disneyland Railroad being good examples.

At WDW there are several middle aged CM’s at American Adventure that provide a superior level of professional appearance and service - they’ve been there for many years. I go to see voices of Liberty a lot so that’s how I recognize them specifically.

Just some personal observations of course.

 

[_caleb]

Than a green one… yes. But only to a certain point — hence… flatlines. once that stand is operating at full efficiency- that’s it. They don’t keep growing that stand and there is no more efficiency to be had. It’s a stand that will make approx x a day, snd you have an employee that won’t be a drag on that.

To get more out of that employee you need to put them into a bigger role.

Right. But you have to pay them enough that they can prove themselves and learn the job well enough to take on that bigger role.

Have you personally witnessed the difference between services levels in higher paid CMs versus lower paid CMs? For two people in generally the same role (Attractions) have you noticed a difference?

I don’t think it’s helpful to look at individual CMs or my personal experience alone. On the whole (as in, the entire Cast of WDW), we have seen a decline in customer service—even if we haven’t “noticed” it. There are fewer CMs than there used to be. With greater dependence on International and College Programs and because pay has not kept up cost of living, greater turnover. This has negative impact on corporate memory, morale, and “magic.”

You see it on these boards all the time. “Our CM was great, but there weren’t enough of them to keep up with demand.” “Our poor CM looked really frustrated, but kept their cool.” Disney has trained us to lower our standards and to accept the bare minimum of “the rides functioned and I was eventually able to buy a $6 churro.”

Do you think there is a point where there are diminishing returns though? Just hypothetically: if you increase pay 200% would you receive a 200% increase in the service level?

Now this is a good question! I think this is entirely depended on corporate culture. There may well EVENTUALLY be a point of diminishing return on base pay increases. But nobody is advocating (well, at least I’m not) for a huge increase in base pay without any accountability, standards, or expectations.

If Disney combines better pay and benefits with additional investment in CM development and continuing education, cross-training, etc. I think the sky is the limit for what the parks could be.