News Disney World Cast Member unions to begin week of negotiations for wage increases, healthcare costs and more

_caleb

Well-Known Member
Lol.. know why they don't do this? Because that person can't be in all those places at the same time. That person also has limited availability and capacity to work. Ultimately it is more beneficial to have multiple employees than to try to have superheros that can do anything. This is not a Disney thing... this is labor management period.
I’m sorry, I don’t follow. What person can’t be “in all those places at the same time?”

It’s not “ultimately more beneficial to have multiple employees,” that’s passé industrial revolution thinking, that treated workers as disposable single-function cogs in a machine. It’s labor management from one hundred years ago.

Nobody is talking about super heroes. I’m saying that if the person working a cash register is also trained in de-escalation techniques, you might have to pay them more, but they will be far more valuable to the company (and customer experience will be far better) than if they’re just a person scanning bar codes and swiping credit cards.
And training a person to do three unskilled jobs doesn't somehow make it into a skilled position.. it just makes it so less people would be successful at it.
An employee who learned to, say, manage crowds at the local mall isn’t the same as someone who’s been managing crowds for years at Animal Kingdom. Same skill on paper (what you might call an “unskilled position,” but worth much more to the customer experience. Add to that another skill that complements and adds even more value specific to the Disney experience, and yes, it absolutely makes that person more than “unskilled.”
If you're upset that work can be broken down into simpler tasks that can be readily trained to people with little to no experience instead of requiring higher skilled people to do work... sorry, you will never win that effort trying to hold back efficiency.
I’m not upset! I’m just interested in this discussion. Hope it’s not coming across any other way.

Customers absolutely have power to demand higher quality of service and experience. And Disney has the capacity (and history) of providing it.
The issue is the WORKERS should be setting the floor with their willingness to work. It's like every sale... there needs to be a seller AND a buyer. The workers are the buyers into the job the employers offer.
Sort of. But when they start out the employment relationship, they begin by negotiating from a pretty weak position. Especially if Disney (and you, the paying customer) see them as merely “unskilled workers” who are interchangeable, disposable, and deserving of exploitation.
The workers are also competing with other workers and the employers are competing with other employers. Wages get depressed because workers get more desperate when they haven't enabled themselves to compete for something more. The more people that do that, the weaker the market will be for those workers because there is more competition for the same jobs. It spirals down when workers couldn't get the opportunity to improve themselves in the first place.

But as we've seen all over... there are plenty of better paying jobs or jobs that could allow people to do more than what Disney is offering. So it's in the power of the workers to show the employer they will demand more... by actually moving past those jobs.

But the union model isn't setup to do that. Fighting through your union is simply a means to fight to get more for doing the same job. You aren't actually threatening to leave... and why ultimately it's a weaker point of leverage vs a market rejecting the pay.
See, you’re buying the story that big corporations are selling—that CMs want more money for the same job. They don’t! They want more money for the Disney-specific version of the job—the same job that is earning executives and investors millions and millions.

Despite what you keep saying, I really don’t think you want working at Disney parks to be the same thing as working at Walmart.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
I’m surprised rents are so high considering housing seems very affordable. According to google the average home price is less than 600k.
In Miami the price of the house isn't always the most painful part. Association fees regularly are more than your mortgage, and Miami's the hardest hit part in Florida offensively high property insurance market.

Beyond that, if you want to live within a reasonable commute (an hour-ish, give or take) or a job downtown, you're going to be paying above $600k. If you want to live within the city limits AND not find your car on blocks within the first month, try above $700k.

Oh, and wages - while higher than Orlando - are still low, as is the norm in Florida.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
Just and FYI
Chic fil a in Philadelphia, full time "back of house" team member ? 13.00-16.00 hour
Lol definitely not "living" wages in Philly


So again what's the problem? I did love this very prominent line on their career page.

A job at Chick-fil-A is more than just a job. It's a stepping-stone to a successful future in the world of business.

Translation: try not to be a back of house team member for 10 years.
On average, Chick-fil-a pays higher wages. You’re right that it’s not a living wage in many places.

And I don’t think anybody is saying that there shouldn’t be entry-level positions or entry-level pay. I’m not, anyway. I’m saying that if we don’t pay the people who cook our food enough money, our food might be cheap, but it will be made by people who don’t know how to cook food and don’t care how it turns out.
 

Trauma

Well-Known Member
In Miami the price of the house isn't always the most painful part. Association fees regularly are more than your mortgage, and Miami's the hardest hit part in Florida offensively high property insurance market.

Beyond that, if you want to live within a reasonable commute (an hour-ish, give or take) or a job downtown, you're going to be paying above $600k. If you want to live within the city limits AND not find your car on blocks within the first month, try above $700k.

Oh, and wages - while higher than Orlando - are still low, as is the norm in Florida.
How much are the association fees?

I just checked a home in Miami priced at 1.4 mil with property taxes of $7600. I pay 22k a year on my house that’s 1.3.

I could pay a lot of association fees with those tax savings.
 

Bullseye1967

Is that who I am?
Premium Member
On average, Chick-fil-a pays higher wages. You’re right that it’s not a living wage in many places.

And I don’t think anybody is saying that there shouldn’t be entry-level positions or entry-level pay. I’m not, anyway. I’m saying that if we don’t pay the people who cook our food enough money, our food might be cheap, but it will be made by people who don’t know how to cook food and don’t care how it turns out.
But in this situation, less people would want the bad food and they would lose customers. The business would then raise the wages to get better skilled people (cooks). It is supply and demand. The market value for cooks is higher than for the busboy they put behind the grill. They are not raising the wages because they are a good company to work for, or the employee deserves a living wage. They doing it to get better skilled employees and therefore getting back the customers they have lost and possibly gaining new customers. Disney is not in this situation. Until workers either can't do the unskilled jobs, or they quit because the wages are too low, then they are fine with the status quo.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
But in this situation, less people would want the bad food and they would lose customers. The business would then raise the wages to get better skilled people (cooks). It is supply and demand. The market value for cooks is higher than for the busboy they put behind the grill. They are not raising the wages because they are a good company to work for, or the employee deserves a living wage. They doing it to get better skilled employees and therefore getting back the customers they have lost and possibly gaining new customers. Disney is not in this situation. Until workers either can't do the unskilled jobs, or they quit because the wages are too low, then they are fine with the status quo.
I understand the economic theory, but it doesn’t actually work like that in real life.

In the case of food: rather than pay higher wages to find, develop, and retain skilled workers, restaurants control “quality” by taking humans out of the equation as much as possible (lower-quality, processed, preserved, frozen, pre-made, micro-waved food). And as long as consumers keep paying for it, they’ll keep selling it, but it’s a race to the bottom, and the only people who win are corporations and shareholders, not workers or customers.

At Disney, the product (the experience) has diminished in quality while prices have increased. CM pay has not kept up with cost of living or with company revenues. And CMs ARE quitting because the wages are too low. Disney simply cannot find enough people to fill these low-paying jobs, and even when they can, CMs are finding that the job isn’t worth it and the unions are negotiating for more.

If Disney started CMs $20/hr. they’d have tons of applications. They’d be in a position to be very choosy about who they hire. They would not have to relax their standards, or sacrifice quality. They would not have to spend as much in training, they would have less turnover, provide better service, and safer, smoother operations that need less oversight.

And again, you, as a Disney customer, should not want any CM jobs to be considered “unskilled.” That’s a lie big companies tell to excuse paying and treating workers poorly. Every worker at a Disney park should be the best in the world at their jobs—and paid well for it—not compared to Old Navy, but compared to the best resorts, restaurants, and services in the world!
 

Chi84

Premium Member
Except they’re not. Not even close. Nor is WDW even aspiring to that level.

They are “slopping the hogs” with low level talent and service and very content to do so - and so are the guests to accept it.
Wow. When was your last visit to WDW? What makes you say this? Any actual experiences?
 
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flynnibus

Premium Member
I’m sorry, I don’t follow. What person can’t be “in all those places at the same time?”

Because physically - you can't split yourself. If you have three different needs at the same time, whose to say those needs are all in the same place at the same time?

It’s not “ultimately more beneficial to have multiple employees,” that’s passé industrial revolution thinking, that treated workers as disposable single-function cogs in a machine. It’s labor management from one hundred years ago.

No, it's practicality. Why do manufacturers make it so anyone whose been through basic training can operate these million dollar rides? Is it because there is some secret cabel between Disney and amusement vendors to ensure CM wages are held down? Why don't they make it so only a trained machinist can operate the rides.. then we'd all ensure that ride operators will be highly paid roles.

In nearly every kind of business there is different levels of work needed - there is no secret Illuminati council preaching this - it's what every doer learns. You find yourself doing tasks that you could hand off to someone else so you can concentrate on a task that may require your unique skills. A hierarchy or branching of skills evolves and you match the people needed to complete those tasks. Is it as good of use of my time as an engineer to handle invoicing instead of doing product development? Or is it better for me to delegate that task out to someone who can do that work, but maybe can't do the same engineering work I can do. The accountant doesn't need to be as qualified as me, and they are more plentiful and cheaper to hire as well. Was that 1800s industrial revolution thinking - or just someone making better use of their time?

As your # of tasks scales, you may find it harder and harder to find enough people able to do a certain type of work, so you invest in ways to make that work simpler, so that you can find more people capable of doing the work. The unit and complexity of work is decreased so you can expand the type of person you can get to fill the need. Especially with scale, this is needed to be able to 1) get enough people and 2) do it in a more efficient way so you can grow.

When faced with challenges of getting enough qualified accountants to do taxes and to increase their throughput, companies like HR Block build software to reduce the workload, improve accuracy, and in turn reduce the skills needed to complete the task. This is not "passe industrial revolution thinking' - It's business competency and examples of how companies innovate to do more with less.

Nobody is talking about super heroes. I’m saying that if the person working a cash register is also trained in de-escalation techniques, you might have to pay them more, but they will be far more valuable to the company (and customer experience will be far better) than if they’re just a person scanning bar codes and swiping credit cards.

Here's a better example. What if every CM was an EMT... then anyone could give any guest instant care right? I mean, then we wouldn't have to have separate medical staff 'if we just pay them more'. No one does this... why? Because when you look at how often a role is needed and where... you may find it better to have an overlay that specializes in something where their utilization is higher and training others instead of specializing can be wasteful.

I mean, why not have ride operators also be the ride maintenance staff right? Or better yet, just have the maintenance staff be the ride Ops.... if only we could get ride of this passe thinking just think of the revolution we could have!!

An employee who learned to, say, manage crowds at the local mall isn’t the same as someone who’s been managing crowds for years at Animal Kingdom. Same skill on paper (what you might call an “unskilled position,” but worth much more to the customer experience. Add to that another skill that complements and adds even more value specific to the Disney experience, and yes, it absolutely makes that person more than “unskilled.”

Sorry - it does not. And it's proven every day when Disney onboards people with effectively zero background and trains and hones them into these roles. That reality doesn't say the AK CMs are equal to the Mall employee - but it doesn't change the use of the term of 'unskilled' labor. Nor does it mean the AK CM should be paid the same as the Mall employee - but they are still both termed unskilled roles because of the qualifications need to get the job.
Sort of. But when they start out the employment relationship, they begin by negotiating from a pretty weak position. Especially if Disney (and you, the paying customer) see them as merely “unskilled workers” who are interchangeable, disposable, and deserving of exploitation.

Know how that perception is changed? By demonstrating that the role can only be done by someone with XYZ prior qualifications or training. But the hard fact that these roles are filled with people without specific field training, specialized education or experience. You can keep dancing the emotional arguments about perception or old thinking... but these labels exist because that's what happens in the real world.. even at Disney.

See, you’re buying the story that big corporations are selling—that CMs want more money for the same job. They don’t! They want more money for the Disney-specific version of the job—the same job that is earning executives and investors millions and millions.

Uhh.. no. I never compared any jobs as equal - I said "there are plenty of better paying jobs or jobs that could allow people to do more than what Disney is offering" -- If you don't like what a Disney ride operator makes, why would insist on wanting to be a Disney Ride Operator? When I say "there are plenty of better paying jobs" that means the literal... GET A DIFFERENT JOB. Work Construction... Work as a Waiter... Work at WAWA.. whatever you find that fits your goals and you think you can achieve. Disney is not the end all be all.. and the longer it takes for people to realize that, the lower their wages will be.

Despite what you keep saying, I really don’t think you want working at Disney parks to be the same thing as working at Walmart.

Correct - and I never said anything that would suggest they should be equivalent. You make the false assertion that when I say 'other jobs' that they are similar or the same as Disney. No.. I'm saying GET A DIFFERENT JOB. None of these $15/hr front line CMs came in working roles that are Disney exclusive. They've decided they want to work at Disney... and in doing so, if they are not willing to leave, they are in a weakened bargaining position. What I said about the union is the same.. the problem with union negotiating is that you are negotiating for the job instead of negotiating 'will I work for you or not'. You've already lost the position of power by basically committing that you want to work there and are basically locked into working there. The union workers aren't leveraging the possibility of working for someone else in their negotiations. It's an ugly downside to collective bargaining.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Except they’re not. Not even close. Nor is WDW even aspiring to that level.

They are “slopping the hogs” with low level talent and service and very content to do so - and so are the guests to accept it.
That’s as unfair as saying they should be the best in the world, I don’t expect 5 Diamond service at Disney but I expect it to be well above average.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
Except they’re not. Not even close. Nor is WDW even aspiring to that level.

They are “slopping the hogs” with low level talent and service and very content to do so - and so are the guests to accept it.
You’ve been making it sound like this is the way it has to be because that’s how “the market” values what CMs do. My point is that there strategies and philosophies drive the market on both the supply and the demand side.

And in this thread about CM union negotiations, I’m advocating for huge increases in pay (and the increases quality in customer service that can buy).
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
And in this thread about CM union negotiations, I’m advocating for huge increases in pay (and the increases quality in customer service that can buy).

This makes it sound like CM quality is currently horrible also. Maybe I’m easy to please but I’d say 99% of my experiences with CMs have been positive.

I’d currently place them well above average.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
If Disney started CMs $20/hr. they’d have tons of applications. They’d be in a position to be very choosy about who they hire. They would not have to relax their standards, or sacrifice quality. They would not have to spend as much in training, they would have less turnover, provide better service, and safer, smoother operations that need less oversight.

This is a nice theory - but it doesn't really work out that way across the board. Raising pay like that widens the net of who you can attract, but it doesn't make employees better or act better. You're still trying to attract the right person. A average employee is going to be just as average at their job if they are making $16 or $20 an hour. The hope you have when offering $20 is you picked the 'best available'.

But here's why that doesn't work in a situation like Disney. They aren't going to turn around and fire everyone and only rehire 'the best available'. Nor will they be able to say "ok, you guys aren't good enough, so you don't get the $20.. you still get the $16". Instead you just have all the same employees now making your premium wage.... and if your work environment/parameters still suck... people won't want to work there.

Pay doesn't equate to the best employees - Bad pay is a barrier to attracting good employees. Raises almost never make employees you have better and the happiness it brings is usually finite.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
In nearly every kind of business there is different levels of work needed - there is no secret Illuminati council preaching this - it's what every doer learns. You find yourself doing tasks that you could hand off to someone else so you can concentrate on a task that may require your unique skills. A hierarchy or branching of skills evolves and you match the people needed to complete those tasks. Is it as good of use of my time as an engineer to handle invoicing instead of doing product development? Or is it better for me to delegate that task out to someone who can do that work, but maybe can't do the same engineering work I can do. The accountant doesn't need to be as qualified as me, and they are more plentiful and cheaper to hire as well. Was that 1800s industrial revolution thinking - or just someone making better use of their time?

As your # of tasks scales, you may find it harder and harder to find enough people able to do a certain type of work, so you invest in ways to make that work simpler, so that you can find more people capable of doing the work. The unit and complexity of work is decreased so you can expand the type of person you can get to fill the need. Especially with scale, this is needed to be able to 1) get enough people and 2) do it in a more efficient way so you can grow.

When faced with challenges of getting enough qualified accountants to do taxes and to increase their throughput, companies like HR Block build software to reduce the workload, improve accuracy, and in turn reduce the skills needed to complete the task. This is not "passe industrial revolution thinking' - It's business competency and examples of how companies innovate to do more with less.
I know you don’t think Disney should be the H&R Block of theme parks.
I mean, why not have ride operators also be the ride maintenance staff right? Or better yet, just have the maintenance staff be the ride Ops.... if only we could get ride of this passe thinking just think of the revolution we could have!!
Sorry - it does not. And it's proven every day when Disney onboards people with effectively zero background and trains and hones them into these roles. That reality doesn't say the AK CMs are equal to the Mall employee - but it doesn't change the use of the term of 'unskilled' labor. Nor does it mean the AK CM should be paid the same as the Mall employee - but they are still both termed unskilled roles because of the qualifications need to get the job.
You’re casting it as all or nothing. Of course we don’t need every CM to be an EMT, or everyone in attractions to be maintenance. But you can see how some overlap might really help improve both operations and maintenance. A CM who has qualifications in both would be worth more, wouldn’t you think?
Know how that perception is changed? By demonstrating that the role can only be done by someone with XYZ prior qualifications or training. But the hard fact that these roles are filled with people without specific field training, specialized education or experience. You can keep dancing the emotional arguments about perception or old thinking... but these labels exist because that's what happens in the real world.. even at Disney.
That’s what happens, yes. But I’m saying that it shouldn’t. And it doesn’t have to. And it only benefits the corporations, not the workers, and not the customers.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
This is a nice theory - but it doesn't really work out that way across the board. Raising pay like that widens the net of who you can attract, but it doesn't make employees better or act better. You're still trying to attract the right person. A average employee is going to be just as average at their job if they are making $16 or $20 an hour. The hope you have when offering $20 is you picked the 'best available'.
CMs who make top dollar have much more to lose than those who are making the same they could be making at Applebee’s. If you want to attract the “right” person, you need to at least pay as well as the competition. I don’t think anyone is arguing for across-the-board raises and zero accountability.
Pay doesn't equate to the best employees - Bad pay is a barrier to attracting good employees. Raises almost never make employees you have better and the happiness it brings is usually finite.
If you raise the pay, you can raise the qualifications, responsibilities, and expectations. You’re right that pay alone doesn’t create happiness, but it certainly can go a long way to making someone feel valued.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
This makes it sound like CM quality is currently horrible also. Maybe I’m easy to please but I’d say 99% of my experiences with CMs have been positive.

I’d currently place them well above average.
Good point, and I don’t want to paint all CMs with that brush. But I do think the Disney experience has been negatively impacted by the labor shortage and by low morale, both of which are directly related to what CMs are paid.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
That’s wonderful, but the company who is actually paying those cast members has made it clear that they don’t see the need or related value of increasing the quality of their cast.

The guests have also made it clear that they will stand in line for an hour for their popcorn bucket regardless of the talent, skills, and experience of the cast member tending the cart.

So that’s fantastic you want to spend their money, but they do not agree.
We know how it currently is. This thread exists because something has to change (and why Disney is having to negotiate). I’m sharing my opinions about how it should be.
 

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