Disney Springs Plans: What do they mean?

[Ignohippo]

Again, the issue for me isn't Disney working to improve (in their opinion) DD. It's that Disney has four stale and largely neglected theme parks that it doesn't want to invest in, but is spending billions on NGE, DVC, resort expansion and DD makeover.

NONE of those things are what people go to WDW for to begin with. Without those four stale parks, none of this stuff would have a reason for being.

I fundamentally do not agree with how Disney is spending absurd sums of money at WDW when the theme park experience is crappier than it has ever been.

THAT is my issue.

I think this is exactly the problem with TDO and TWDCo's current view of the parks. All four parks, water parks, resorts and shopping districts need to be viewed as separate businesses in order to achieve their ultimate potential. in the end, the improvement of each only adds to the appeal of the resort as a whole.

There are very few theme parks in the world that don't add a new attraction every year. Yet, the Disney parks languish for years and years without anything new. TDO needs to realize that these parks are in competition with each other, as well as being in competition with every other theme park around the world. If the parks were reaching their potential, they'd never have to worry about Uni or anything else in Orlando stealing their business.

That said, WDW is a business. Unlike a new theme park attraction, this expansion will result in immediate revenue. Let's be honest, as bad as the theme parks need additions, they aren't anywhere near the state that DTD is in (and has been for years). With what many insiders have said, including you, there are additions to the parks being planned as well. I only hope this expansion is "in addition to" rather than "instead of".

Complain about Avatar if you want - that's a case of one thing being built at the expense of others. The DTD expansion is something different and that is needed and very welcome. There aren't any admission costs, so the tenants will ultimately pay for it, not the WDW guests (indirectly, obviously).

I could care less about third party vendors as long as there are also unique offerings as well (which I'm sure there will be). With an entertainment area of this size, it would be impossible to not have them.

The things I see missing though are draws (such as Margaritaville, Emeril's, Hard Rock, House Of Blues, Wolfgang Puck's, T-Rex, Rainforest, etc.). There isn't anything in the list that would make anyone think "wow!".

 

[John]

But story is everything when it comes to good Disney. Maybe if we knew it we'd all feel a little more excited?

Story is nothing more then a reinforment of a product. Without the product the story is nothing morethen....well a story.

 

[MattM]

Anyone who follows this site saw the very public meltdown he had last week against WDWMagic

Missed it. what happened and where?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think this is exactly the problem with TDO and TWDCo's current view of the parks. All four parks, water parks, resorts and shopping districts need to be viewed as separate businesses in order to achieve their ultimate potential. in the end, the improvement of each only adds to the appeal of the resort as a whole.

This is already happening and is a big part of why the separate identities have been lost. Everything at Walt Disney World is in competition with everything else there. The result has been homogenization because every unit has to go for what is selling the best in order to justify its own continued existence. Plush sells the best, then plush is what everybody gets. Chicken nuggets over in the next land outselling your stuff, then you switch to the thematically lacking nuggets. Magic Kingdom getting the best attendance while becoming more juvenile, then your park becomes more juvenile.

 

[Ignohippo]

For those complaining about "Disney Burger", I'm sure that's a placeholder. It was rumored about a year ago that Burger 21 (from Tampa) was opening at DTD, and this is probably the generic placeholder they're putting on marketing materials until the tenant list is announced.

If Burger 21 doesn't open there, I'd be very surprised if another Tampa area burger chain, called Square One Burger, doesn't take it's place.

 

[stlphil]

I guess its hard to be worse than how things are now. I guess I don't see this as a horrible change just not as good as it could be.

What's there now I wouldn't call blighted, but at the very least somewhat neglected, and a far cry from what there used to be.

I'll withold judgement until I see how this turns out, but if they are going to spend the money anyway, they are missing a huge opportunity if this is just "very nice" but without a "wow " factor. At a time when Uni is taking days from Disney, this could have been a way to reclaim a day.

For example, to use some ideas already proposed, imagine if as part of this project there really is a cool elevated train connecting the various parts. Or a people-mover from the parking structure designed to showcase some of the offerings (and charge a premium for those showcased tenants). Have a unique nighttime entertainment district again, not necessarily in the middle, and throw a bone to the fans by bringing back AC. Include a magic club. Put in a scaled-down World of Color with unique daytime and nighttime shows. Clean up DQ and put something new and cutting-edge in there. And I'm sure the imagineers can do somehing even better than these rehashed ideas to bring on a wow.

These ideas will cost way less than a fifth park would, and I doubt would add exhorbitantly relative to the already hefty price tag for this project. But it would give me (and I'll bet others) reason to stay on site another day and maybe not wander up the road to Uni. I can really use a break from the parks at some point during my stay, but I still want to be wowed as only Disney can (or could). Something that is just another mall with stuff I can get at home, no matter how nice, doesn't fit the bill. Downtown Disney with a fully realized PI and DQ did largely fulfill this role to some extent, at least for me.

Disney Springs as described here ain't The Mall of America, which IS a tourist destination. Oh, and by the way, that name is horribly unimaginative and non-descriptive.

 

[Ignohippo]

This is already happening and is a big part of why the separate identities have been lost. Everything at Walt Disney World is in competition with everything else there. The result has been homogenization because every unit has to go for what is selling the best in order to justify its own continued existence. Plush sells the best, then plush is what everybody gets. Chicken nuggets over in the next land outselling your stuff, then you switch to the thematically lacking nuggets. Magic Kingdom getting the best attendance while becoming more juvenile, then your park becomes more juvenile.

Huh? That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. What you're talking about IS the problem. All of the parks have the same merchandise, etc. and none are allowed to excel on their own merits.

This isn't because the parks are in competition with each other, it's because they don't want any park to be truly "unique". They want all of them to be considered as one WDW, rather than four incredible theme parks. It's the "One Disney Parks" attitude that's a perfect example of TWDCo's failure to see each park as anything unique.

To expand on that further, I guarantee you the SWMT was at the expense of the MI Coaster. I can just see the execs at TDO sitting at a board table saying "well why would we need to build another coaster when one is already being built at MK?". They totally miss the point that DHS is in desperate need of more attractions. It's one resort, after all.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Huh? That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. What you're talking about is the problem. All of the parks have the same merchandise, etc. and none are allowed to excel on their own merits.

It's the "One Disney Parks" attitude that's a perfect example of TWDCo's failure to see each park as anything unique.

That result came before DisneyParks and OneDisney because they started to look at each of the parks, water parks, resorts, etc. as their own separate businesses. You're proposing what exists and created the current problem. The antique shops never really justified their own existence as a business, so they went away and were replaced with what was easy to justify because it sold better, the generic merchandise. Same with attractions, Magic Kingdom has always been top dog with attendance and now the other parks have become more like the Magic Kingdom. It is an inverse relationship. Look at them financially as one, you get more distinct entities which can support each other; look at them as financially separate, you get the same thing over and over in a race to the bottom.

 

[prfctlyximprct]

I think this is very much needed and if Avartarland and a DHS revamp comes along with it, I'd be ecstatic. I'm such a pessimist now when it comes to Disney plans, but hopefully they do SOMETHING in the near future.

 

[rioriz]

I think if they announced a new adult nightlife district, with or without Adventurers Club, there would be a lot more excitement about the changes. Closing Pleasure Island's clubs without offering any alternatives was a blunder that has so many upset. Now is the opportunity to remedy that. They can stick it out in Flamingo Crossings if they want, but offer adults comedy and music clubs already.

I am not sure but I bet there will be places adults can have a great time drinkin and dancing when this is done. I had a great time last time I was at the BB Kings and Raglan. I will probably have a great time at Splits ille

 

[Longhairbear]

Missed it. what happened and where?

I missed it too.

 

[John]

You know what I think the one of the issues with Disney Springs is?....we as concumers have become jaded. We have become jaded to malls....ie Lifestyle Centers ( who cam up with that term anyway?) We have seen in our hometowns one mall after another try and out due the last one. It was all topped off with The Mall of America and places like the Americana. Disney Springs? REALLY? Sephora?.... I dont get that. Maybe because I am guy...I dunno. But who is buying makeup on a vacation? Wouldnt they have made that purchase before they came? Locals? A lot of people bring up locals...Why would a local fight the traffic problems....crowds etc. to go shoping at what they even could find at thier local mall. IMO I think they go to DTD for something unique. Weather it would be some fancy bowling ally or a really nice theater. Do they actually go to DTD to lets say do thier back to school shopping?

I digress.....It goes back to substance. We just dont see the excitement in the new offerings. The proponents say but its a shopping experience....thats what it supposed to be. But it was always that....and soooooo much more.

 

[Ignohippo]

That result came before DisneyParks and OneDisney because they started to look at each of the parks, water parks, resorts, etc. as their own separate businesses. You're proposing what exists and created the current problem. The antique shops never really justified their own existence as a business, so they went away and were replaced with what was easy to justify because it sold better, the generic merchandise. Same with attractions, Magic Kingdom has always been top dog with attendance and now the other parks have become more like the Magic Kingdom. It is an inverse relationship. Look at them financially as one, you get more distinct entities which can support each other; look at them as financially separate, you get the same thing over and over in a race to the bottom.

I absolutely 100% disagree with what you're saying. Yes, the competition between merchandise locations IS what led to the destruction of the unique merchandise offerings, but I'm talking about things being unique - not in competion. The garbage merch that every store has now is because it costs much less to buy things in bulk and TWDCo now looks at the merchandise as things they can mass-produce for both parks and the most stores (bringing the costs down).

If each park were standing on its own merits, you'd see MORE unique offerings, not less. You'd need those stores and attractions to actually be draws for the park (like things used to be).

Looking at all of the parks as one, as you suggest, only makes everything the same across the board. The additions at one park are at the expense of the others, rather than trying to make each park the best it can be. With the One Resort philosophy, why add anything to DHS when you've just added something to the resort with the FLE?

 

[articos]

Story is not everything and its not always appropriate, even for Disney. A good story/theme defines the experience. If just another other shop can be dropped in, then there is no real story, just a bunch of wasted time justifying aesthetic choices. Downtown Disney is a shopping "district" and as such stores will come and go based on finances, not the experience of a created place. If the story is anything like Pleasure Island (more so after the clubs started to be changed out) or Hyperion Wharf and also what I see in the art, it's just going to be a lot of hot air to say why this relatively new place looks like it is the sort of adaptive reuse that is happening in every major city. It's rationalization for copying and defaulting to Disney's tried and true aesthetic choices.

Exactly. You have to suspend disbelief and buy in. It's not as easy as just creating a story and a place and making the jump that the guest will automatically go with you. People are smart. Walt and the originals got that, and they didn't try to pander. A lot of the not-so-good themed/story development companies don't understand this, and I feel like some of that talent has been worming its way into Imagineering over the past however many years. They don't understand that people will suspend disbelief for a boat ride through pirate territory, knowing it's within a building, and entirely created. Same with a safari tour through Flafrica. If you create the place, and it's engaging enough, they'll believe and enjoy the ride you're created. That does not apply to a shopping center. Because it doesn't need to. If you want to give it some theming, great. That's what Caruso's development team does - his theme is "nostalgia". Plain and simple. Build a main street shopping district with a park or public square, put in some clocks and clock/bell towers, give the architecture some identity, and put a trolley in. Make it feel like Disneyland's main street. That's high-quality theming, no story necessary. Everyone who walks in knows it's all fake, but they (and I) enjoy every minute of it. It's pretty, if shallow, but that's all that's needed. But the public is not going to buy in to a fake storyline of buildings that are of course created by Disney having been there and reused. It's over-Imagineering.

 

[hp200lx]

I missed it too.

He claimed that WDWMagic stole concept art he posted(which they clearly did not) and went off about it on twitter bigtime bashing this site and people who post here.

 

[GoofGoof]

You know what I think the one of the issues with Disney Springs is?....we as concumers have become jaded. We have become jaded to malls....ie Lifestyle Centers ( who cam up with that term anyway?) We have seen in our hometowns one mall after another try and out due the last one. It was all topped off with The Mall of America and places like the Americana. Disney Springs? REALLY? Sephora?.... I dont get that. Maybe because I am guy...I dunno. But who is buying makeup on a vacation? Wouldnt they have made that purchase before they came? Locals? A lot of people bring up locals...Why would a local fight the traffic problems....crowds etc. to go shoping at what they even could find at thier local mall. IMO I think they go to DTD for something unique. Weather it would be some fancy bowling ally or a really nice theater. Do they actually go to DTD to lets say do thier back to school shopping?

I digress.....It goes back to substance. We just dont see the excitement in the new offerings. The proponents say but its a shopping experience....thats what it supposed to be. But it was always that....and soooooo much more.

Have you ever driven past that mall right off the highway near WDW. Packed all day long. I totally agree that the last thing I would want to do on vacation is go to a mall, but a lot of people do. I view DTD as a place to go at night for something to eat and a place to grab a few drinks. Other than souvenirs I'm not shopping for much.

 

[yoyoflamingo]

For those complaining about "Disney Burger", I'm sure that's a placeholder. It was rumored about a year ago that Burger 21 (from Tampa) was opening at DTD, and this is probably the generic placeholder they're putting on marketing materials until the tenant list is announced.

If Burger 21 doesn't open there, I'd be very surprised if another Tampa area burger chain, called Square One Burger, doesn't take it's place.

Shake Shack is also on the list; it could also be a case of "Throw to the wall and see what sticks, and if nothing does, we'll just do it ourselves."

 

[lazyboy97o]

I absolutely 100% disagree with what you're saying. Yes, the unique shops couldn't hold their own and should have been considered a "draw" rather than competing with other stores of different types of merchandise. But the garbage merch that every store has now is because it costs much less to buy things in bulk and TWDCo now looks at the merchandise as things they can mass-produce for both parks and the most stores (bringing the costs down).

If each park were having to compete on its own, you'd see MORE unique offerings, not less. You'd need those stores and attractions to actaully be draws (like things used to be), rather than just resting on their laurels and all being the same.

The parks already do compete on their own. What you propose is already how things works. It was the big revolution to the business model that Paul Pressler brought over from The Disney Store. The merchandise was not just about upfront cost, but what generated the biggest profits. Each store went with what sold the best because it was the only way to ensure staying around. The same happened at every scale. From the park level down to every last remaining square foot. The parks are competing by all offering the same product because there is less risk involved in going with what is proven.

 

[GoofGoof]

Shake Shack is also on the list; it could also be a case of "Throw to the wall and see what sticks, and if nothing does, we'll just do it ourselves."

I heard the Shake Shack is a direct response to the shrieking shack that Universal is building as part of Potter 2.0. Actually, I just made that up, but with the way Universal is going they probably will have a shrieking shack some time soon

 

[articos]

You know what I think the one of the issues with Disney Springs is?....we as concumers have become jaded. We have become jaded to malls....ie Lifestyle Centers ( who cam up with that term anyway?) We have seen in our hometowns one mall after another try and out due the last one. It was all topped off with The Mall of America and places like the Americana. Disney Springs? REALLY? Sephora?.... I dont get that. Maybe because I am guy...I dunno. But who is buying makeup on a vacation? Wouldnt they have made that purchase before they came? Locals? A lot of people bring up locals...Why would a local fight the traffic problems....crowds etc. to go shoping at what they even could find at thier local mall. IMO I think they go to DTD for something unique. Weather it would be some fancy bowling ally or a really nice theater. Do they actually go to DTD to lets say do thier back to school shopping?

I digress.....It goes back to substance. We just dont see the excitement in the new offerings. The proponents say but its a shopping experience....thats what it supposed to be. But it was always that....and soooooo much more.

Quick points, and none of this is directed at you, personally, of course:

1. Jaded? Yes, absolutely.
2. People like to shop on vacation, that's just a fact.
3. Can't say anything about substance yet, because nothing's been announced yet! I fear we are forgetting that in this thread as it goes on.