Disney springs not doing so well.....

[SorcererMC]

No.. people are making choices within a system Disney has STRUCTURED to steer those choices and heavily influence them. This isn't just advertising, discounts, etc... Disney physically changed how people buy, stay, and move.. and rewrote the rules to steer this exact behavior. The idea that people 'opted' to not get a rental car for instance is not an independent decision.. It's a decision heavily driven by factors Disney manipulated to abnormal conditions (free long haul bus transport) to make the decision lopsided to Disney's intended behavior. The decision can't be made independent of Disney's manipulation because Disney has inserted themselves into so many dimensions of your trip.

It's not people are not aware of Disney's influence, it's people generally forget how much Disney has actually changed behaviors and made it that much more undesirable to go against the grain. Selling the Dining Plan so aggressively for instance... sure is going to cut into your ambition to venture out and check out a Dinner show off-property when you've already paid for a meal. Or people forget how Disney has steered people into 100% Disney vacations vs what was common just 20 years ago. (steering those extra 2 days to Disney vs exploring, etc).

Not everyone recognizes the behavior shaping these product strategies can have because they steer and influence behavior, not necessarily forbid behavior. So yes, you can uber off property to Sea World.. but Disney has successfully discouraged a lot of that behavior by how it packages its own products. It's like vendor lock.. but vacation lock

There's no question that Disney has had the advantage of being the dominant market leader; I don't dispute that. However, their ability to shape consumer tastes and preferences is limited by the consumer's willingness to buy the product offered and remain loyal. I understand the model and the strategy behind it (Is UO not adopting the same strategy?). WDW is a mass market tourist product, but I don't think that their consumers are 'sheeple' for buying into that model or that Disney has overwhelmingly constrained their choices (lack of competition being the real issue). I don't deny that a WDW vacation is a unique or special product; it is up to the consumer to accept or reject what is offered (by voting with their wallet).

 

[Bandini]

Why? One doesn't need a PhD to know that a company like Disney uses various strategies (offering property-wide bus transportation) and tactics (new products/experiences) in trying to separate your money from you. Consumer choice - whether rational or irrational - is the intervening variable as to whether the company is successful in doing so.

I'm not entirely sure where the disagreement lies, both you and @21stamps are right. You seem to be saying that Disney consumers are irrational (or unwittingly susceptible) in making that choice, while 21stamps is saying that consumers are rational (thinking it through). Both exist, and often co-exist in any one individual. Neither of you should be taking offense IMO . It's 2 sides of the same coin.

I think a perfect example of this is the DDP. If you figure out the cost of the food, it's a deal for Disney, not the consumer. But the plan is still being used because people don't have to pay for food while they are on vacation. Free Dining is the same thing. Usually the room discounts are a better deal, but people choose the free dining.

 

[SorcererMC]

I think a perfect example of this is the DDP. If you figure out the cost of the food, it's a deal for Disney, not the consumer. But the plan is still being used because people don't have to pay for food while they are on vacation. Free Dining is the same thing. Usually the room discounts are a better deal, but people choose the free dining.

I understand. I guess I simply don't think that Disney is being 'manipulative' or using some kind of spectacular psychological trick by offering attractive packages that consumers apparently want. It is for the consumer to determine the value proposition according to their circumstance, and I think that consumers will abandon WDW in favor of alternatives when the value isn't there for them. There are plenty of things that I am critical of Disney over (frequency/rate of price increases, opportunity cost of misguided investments aka not spending enough on new rides, reducing quality which diminishes the guest experience, destroying classic rides, mgmt decisions, etc, etc.).
Side note: Is this what being a pixie duster feels like? .

 

[ford91exploder]

I understand. I guess I simply don't think that Disney is being 'manipulative' or using some kind of spectacular psychological trick by offering attractive packages that consumers apparently want. It is for the consumer to determine the value proposition according to their circumstance, and I think that consumers will abandon WDW in favor of alternatives when the value isn't there for them. There are plenty of things that I am critical of Disney over (frequency/rate of price increases, opportunity cost of misguided investments aka not spending enough on new rides, reducing quality which diminishes the guest experience, destroying classic rides, mgmt decisions, etc, etc.).
Side note: Is this what being a pixie duster feels like? .

No thankfully it's not Pixie Dusters have a complete disconnect from reality WRT Disney, This is spoken as a recovering Pixie Dust addict.

 

[Bandini]

I understand. I guess I simply don't think that Disney is being 'manipulative' or using some kind of spectacular psychological trick by offering attractive packages that consumers apparently want. It is for the consumer to determine the value proposition according to their circumstance, and I think that consumers will abandon WDW in favor of alternatives when the value isn't there for them. There are plenty of things that I am critical of Disney over (frequency/rate of price increases, opportunity cost of misguided investments aka not spending enough on new rides, reducing quality which diminishes the guest experience, destroying classic rides, mgmt decisions, etc, etc.).
Side note: Is this what being a pixie duster feels like? .

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Disney is continually trying to make these packages as attractive as possible to consumers without showing the actual costs if you didn't purchase a package. They are always trying to appeal by pretending that your vacation will be easier if you leave the driving to them (MDE) and purchase the dining plan. It's all so much better. Manipulation all the way.

I'm not saying that making money is a new goal. But Walt did it by improving the parks, so did Eisner. But under Iger's management, Disney's goal is no longer their guest's enjoyment, it's seeing how much money they can squeeze out of each mark....oh I mean guest.

 

[Otterhead]

But under Iger's management, Disney's goal is no longer their guest's enjoyment, it's seeing how much money they can squeeze out of each mark....oh I mean guest.

Are you saying that Eisner wasn't trying to make Disney a profitable company when he was in charge?
And that massive, expensive expansions under Iger's leadership (Star Wars, Pandora, DS, Toy Story, Shanghai, Fantasyland) weren't done for the enjoyment of guests?
This kind of post is why WDWMagic has a bad reputation.

 

[wdisney9000]

You're completely correct.
I gave up, you can't speak rational to people who refuse to look at anything rationally.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting that same results.. That's the definition of something, just can't remember what .

A skilled manipulation strategy takes place beneath the level of your conscious awareness. A person does not realize what is going on as it is happens. Even though you are still aware of your "other choices", the subconscious easily finds a way to dismiss them. If a person is confronted with the fact they were manipulated, they will fiercely defend their decisions as their own in an effort to feel like they are in control. Below is an example of you "rationalizing" why you did not leave the bubble.

the one day tickets for Universal park to park are crazy..and no way I would do it without an express pass

The person being manipulated will also attempt to reference other "choices" they made on their own in a secondary defense effort to convince (mostly themselves) that they are in control.

When I've stayed in "all inclusive" resorts on other islands I always venture out..

 

[Otterhead]

The person being manipulated will also attempt to reference other "choices" they made on their own in a secondary defense effort to convince (mostly themselves) that they are in control.

Just so we're clear, you're arguing that people who look at the costs of visiting Universal for a day, see that a day-trip to check out Harry Potter will cost many hundreds of dollars, and decide that their time is better spent visiting the Disney park they're staying next to are not actually in control of their own actions?

 

[SorcererMC]

A skilled manipulation strategy takes place beneath the level of your conscious awareness. A person does not realize what is going on as it is happens. Even though you are still aware of your "other choices", the subconscious easily finds a way to dismiss them. If a person is confronted with the fact they were manipulated, they will fiercely defend their decisions as their own in an effort to feel like they are in control.

Wait - is this really about marketing to the reptilian brain? It's been around for at least ten years and I thought that most people were familiar with it. Manipulation only works if one doesn't know how it's done. I'm also assuming that today's Disney consumer is sufficiently educated to know (due to the middle to upper middle class demographic that is being targeted).

 

[wdisney9000]

Just so we're clear, you're arguing that people who look at the costs of visiting Universal for a day, see that a day-trip to check out Harry Potter will cost many hundreds of dollars, and decide that their time is better spent visiting the Disney park they're staying next to are not actually in control of their own actions?

There is a difference between not being in control of your own actions vs making an influenced decision. As @flynnibus stated:

people are making choices within a system Disney has STRUCTURED to steer those choices and heavily influence them

If a person visiting WDW for 7 days considers taking a day to go to USO but decides not because "the one day ticket is to expensive", is it truly because that one day "expensive" $100 ticket will bankrupt them and they cant afford to spend $100? Or could it possibly be that when they weigh the decision that an extra day at WDW would only be $10 to add to their 7 day park ticket, it seems like a no brainer and they feel they are "saving" money. That same person who decides to add another day to WDW instead of spending $100 to got USO (which is what they consciously wanted to do) will more than likely spend close to $100 that same day at WDW on drinks, food, merch, etc because now they are in a mind state of "I saved that $100 by not going to Uni, so I can splurge a little". So while they felt the Uni ticket was too costly and decided (what they believed was on their own) that they would save money and go to Magic Kingdom instead, actually spent roughly the same amount regardless, but at WDW, not Uni.

 

[SorcererMC]

There is a difference between not being in control of your own actions vs making an influenced decision. As @flynnibus stated:

If a person visiting WDW for 7 days considers taking a day to go to USO but decides not because "the one day ticket is to expensive", is it truly because that one day "expensive" $100 ticket will bankrupt them and they cant afford to spend $100? Or could it possibly be that when they weigh the decision that an extra day at WDW would only be $10 to add to their 7 day park ticket, it seems like a no brainer and they feel they are "saving" money. That same person who decides to add another day to WDW instead of spending $100 to got USO (which is what they consciously wanted to do) will more than likely spend close to $100 that same day at WDW on drinks, food, merch, etc. So while they felt the Uni ticket was too costly and decided (what they believed was on their own) that they would save money and go to Magic Kingdom instead, actually spent roughly the same amount regardless, but at WDW, not Uni.

ok. Thanks for adding that explanation which is more of a behavioral econ approach. You are speaking my language.

 

[Otterhead]

That same person who decides to add another day to WDW instead of spending $100 to got USO (which is what they consciously wanted to do) will more than likely spend close to $100 that same day at WDW on drinks, food, merch, etc. So while they felt the Uni ticket was too costly and decided (what they believed was on their own) that they would save money and go to Magic Kingdom instead, actually spent roughly the same amount regardless, but at WDW, not Uni.

That's lousy math.
If someone staying on-property was to go to Universal for a day -- even on a day they don't have a WDW ticket -- it would cost $109 per person for general admission. For Fastpass-level access, that's another $80 per person. Transportation there isn't free. Food isn't free. Beverages, merchandise, etc. Is it worth it? Sure, if you have the disposable income to drop $800 or so for your family of four to go to Universal for the day.

If the purpose of your trip to Orlando is to see the tons of stuff to do on Disney property, you aren't being "manipulated" by deciding to focus on WDW versus budgeting to split your trip between the two, which is what I plan to do on my next trip.

 

[Bandini]

Are you saying that Eisner wasn't trying to make Disney a profitable company when he was in charge?
And that massive, expensive expansions under Iger's leadership (Star Wars, Pandora, DS, Toy Story, Shanghai, Fantasyland) weren't done for the enjoyment of guests?
This kind of post is why WDWMagic has a bad reputation.

Eisner added attractions and hotels. But overall there was guest benefit. DHS, AK, DCA in the US alone.

Under Iger:

1. MDE/FP+ have allowed the company to right size their staffing so that every day is a crowd level 7. think about all the attraction that could've been added with that 2 billion
2. Fantasyland: Oh yes this area was expanded. But the biggest gain was for Disney. Enough cement was poured in Fantasyland to increase the MK's capacity by 5,000 people. I think it really pays off during the holidays. ETWB , 7DMT = MEH. Lost Snow White.
3. Star Wars: When?
4. Pandora : When? Oh and when will the ROL finally show up?
5. Toy Story: are you talking about the extra track? If you're talking about the land, When?

The only thing Iger has really done is focus most of the company's re-investment into revenue generating propositions: Restaraunts, DVC,, and more retail space, and these are the completed projects. All of the new lands you mention haven't been completed. Everything is moving at a snail's pace at WDW.
I wouldn't be surprised if SWL in DL opened before Pandora. It's pathetic.

Yes, there is Shanghai, but how many of us will ever visit? If I go to China, I'm going to be seeing the country, not visiting a theme park. But if you want to include foreign parks. Eisner built : Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Paris.

I'm not saying Eisner was perfect, but he was a damn sight better than the Weatherman!

 

[21stamps]

This is crazy. I mean seriously my mind is blown.

I can not believe that some people have such little faith in the human brain.

No one is disputing that Disney makes every effort to keep their guests on property- by offering attractive options of things to do, enough where you could find something to do every day and evening. Why wouldn't they? It's a business strategy, a good one.

I am disputing that people aren't mindless fools staying on property because they are being tricked into it.

If you consider it being fooled then ok, this discussion is pointless.

I call it making choices.

There is a difference between not being in control of your own actions vs making an influenced decision. As @flynnibus stated:

If a person visiting WDW for 7 days considers taking a day to go to USO but decides not because "the one day ticket is to expensive", is it truly because that one day "expensive" $100 ticket will bankrupt them and they cant afford to spend $100? Or could it possibly be that when they weigh the decision that an extra day at WDW would only be $10 to add to their 7 day park ticket, it seems like a no brainer and they feel they are "saving" money. That same person who decides to add another day to WDW instead of spending $100 to got USO (which is what they consciously wanted to do) will more than likely spend close to $100 that same day at WDW on drinks, food, merch, etc because now they are in a mind state of "I saved that $100 by not going to Uni, so I can splurge a little". So while they felt the Uni ticket was too costly and decided (what they believed was on their own) that they would save money and go to Magic Kingdom instead, actually spent roughly the same amount regardless, but at WDW, not Uni.

You obviously haven't done the math lately. For myself and my child 1 day at universal/IoA including the "must have" wand for kiddo and a Grinchmas breakfast would be around $600 for that day. 9am-8pm. During a high crowd time.
There is not enough value for me to make that choice.

Yes, I'm spending the same amount on a hotel room for 1 night, that's where the choice and value come in. Meaning people spend their money where they want.

Disney is encouraging me, but not manipulating me into doing so. They are providing attractive options to make my decision easier... It's not a Jedi Mind Trick.
I know that if I stayed off property or split my vacation between Uni - WDW that the cost would be less. I am choosing not to. Why? Because WDW is offering me enough incentive to stay.

Incentives are not brain washing.

Yesterday I mentioned retail stores, entertainment venues, car dealerships, restaurants- they all do the same thing. It's part of marketing.

 

[Otterhead]

MDE/FP+ have allowed the company to right size their staffing

And allowed guests to reserve spots efficiently and customize their experience all day long.

Star Wars: When?

Well, it's under construction now, with a three to four year timeframe predicted.

Pandora : When?

2017.

Toy Story: are you talking about the extra track?

Er, no. Toy Story Land, the huge new area currently under construction. Looking at a two year timeframe.

Yes, there is Shanghai, but how many of us will ever visit?

A massive, huge number of Chinese residents. That's who it's built for, yes? The single biggest Magic Kingdom park in the world, getting huge raves for its innovative, unique attractions that exist nowhere else?

I understand that you have a bone to pick with Mr Iger, but it sounds like you're simply ignorant and angry about it.

 

[wdisney9000]

You obviously haven't done the math lately. For myself and my child 1 day at universal/IoA including the "must have" wand for kiddo and a Grinchmas breakfast would be around $600 for that day. 9am-8pm. During a high crowd time.
There is not enough value for me to make that choice.

Are you trying to convince me....or yourself?

 

[21stamps]

Are you trying to convince me....or yourself?

I don't need to convince you. It's my money, and I'm already convinced that I don't want to spend $600 for two people to do 11 hours in an extremely crowded theme park.

 

[Bandini]

Yesterday I mentioned retail stores, entertainment venues, car dealerships, restaurants- they all do the same thing. It's part of marketing.[/QUOTE]

And allowed guests to reserve spots efficiently and customize their experience all day long.

Well, it's under construction now, with a three to four year timeframe predicted.

2017.

Er, no. Toy Story Land, the huge new area currently under construction. Looking at a two year timeframe.

A massive, huge number of Chinese residents. That's who it's built for, yes? The single biggest Magic Kingdom park in the world, getting huge raves for its innovative, unique attractions that exist nowhere else?

I understand that you have a bone to pick with Mr Iger, but it sounds like you're simply ignorant and angry about it.

And allowed guests to reserve spots efficiently and customize their experience all day long.

Well, it's under construction now, with a three to four year timeframe predicted.

2017.

Er, no. Toy Story Land, the huge new area currently under construction. Looking at a two year timeframe.

A massive, huge number of Chinese residents. That's who it's built for, yes? The single biggest Magic Kingdom park in the world, getting huge raves for its innovative, unique attractions that exist nowhere else?

I understand that you have a bone to pick with Mr Iger, but it sounds like you're simply ignorant and angry about it.

Please, do not call me ignorant. You seem unable to present a persuasive argument based on the discussion points, therefore you use insults. Nice tactic, but I'm going to ignore you since you are incapable of posting without insults.

 

[Otterhead]

You seem unable to present a persuasive argument based on the discussion points, therefore you use insults

Ah, got it. Ignoring actual facts. Well, that's one way to walk away from a discussion. Seeya.

 

[Otterhead]

Are you trying to convince me....or yourself?