'Disney Springs' - Downtown Disney expansion officially announced

[PhotoDave219]

Not trying to win a battle or even start one...but...I can tell you I am NOT 100% wrong. It's ok if you do not agree with me but I do know for a fact that I am not 100% wrong...or 99% wrong...or even 98% wrong. I never said that 9/11 didn't have anything to do with it. BTW I do not know you nor do I have a personal responsibility to divulge any person or specific information. For all I know...YOU could be....>gulp<....100% wrong. Remember every story has two sides! (Except Pinnochio because let's admit it once you turn into a real boy there is no going back!)

You're factually incorrect. #NotOnFire.

 

[ASilmser]

I was actually never a fan of PI, although I would like a few 21+places. I would prefer they be spread out over the Disney Springs area however, as opposed to all grouped together as PI was. I just didn't like the vibe actually the way it was.

I always thought PI concept was a nice offering. I don't drink, and I don't like loud music (I've never been able to hear people talk when there's a ton of background noise, so places like dance clubs just frustrate me). HOWEVER, on our last two trips with PI open, I had such horrible experiences on the busses from DTD that I've always wondered if it wasn't the crime and lewd behavior from having so many places dedicated to "partying" close so close together that played a role in their demise.

Since we usually travel in the summer, we have kind of made it a tradition to attend a late-night movie or two during our trips to Disney World (attend a midnight showing on an opening night). After the movie, On the bus trip to our hotels, we often encountered some obviously intoxicated people from PI.

Our kids were too young to come along, thank God, but one year, we sat in front of some people who were obviously drunk, and "attracted" to one another. Not only were they making out, but they were, shall we say, "making their way around the bases," oblivious to the fact that they were on a packed bus. I almost said something, but I have learned that people who are drunk aren't always in the best position to react reasonably when you confront them about their behavior.

The very next year, after our movie, we were almost caught in the middle of an all-out "bus brawl." The driver wound up stopping, calling Disney police, and 3 or 4 people had to be removed from the bus, with their own personal taxi ride to their hotel (probably with a few citations as souvenirs). That bus ride was the only time I have ever felt like I was not safe at Disney World.

When PI closed soon after, I shed no tears.

I wonder if Disney security and guests got fed up with stuff like this, and that was one of the reasons they decided to close the area. Maybe they thought that in the long-term, an area like this was more of a liability than an asset.

Now that it's expanding, I think there is room for a lot more nighttime adults-only entertainment at DTD, but perhaps not in one concentrated area like before.

 

[John]

I always thought PI concept was a nice offering. I don't drink, and I don't like loud music (I've never been able to hear people talk when there's a ton of background noise, so places like dance clubs just frustrate me). HOWEVER, on our last two trips with PI open, I had such horrible experiences on the busses from DTD that I've always wondered if it wasn't the crime and lewd behavior from having so many places dedicated to "partying" close so close together that played a role in their demise.

Since we usually travel in the summer, we have kind of made it a tradition to attend a late-night movie or two during our trips to Disney World (attend a midnight showing on an opening night). After the movie, On the bus trip to our hotels, we often encountered some obviously intoxicated people from PI.

Our kids were too young to come along, thank God, but one year, we sat in front of some people who were obviously drunk, and "attracted" to one another. Not only were they making out, but they were, shall we say, "making their way around the bases," oblivious to the fact that they were on a packed bus. I almost said something, but I have learned that people who are drunk aren't always in the best position to react reasonably when you confront them about their behavior.

The very next year, after our movie, we were almost caught in the middle of an all-out "bus brawl." The driver wound up stopping, calling Disney police, and 3 or 4 people had to be removed from the bus, with their own personal taxi ride to their hotel (probably with a few citations as souvenirs). That bus ride was the only time I have ever felt like I was not safe at Disney World.

When PI closed soon after, I shed no tears.

I wonder if Disney security and guests got fed up with stuff like this, and that was one of the reasons they decided to close the area. Maybe they thought that in the long-term, an area like this was more of a liability than an asset.

Now that it's expanding, I think there is room for a lot more nighttime adults-only entertainment at DTD, but perhaps not in one concentrated area like before.

Have you ever attended F&W festival? Also I have seen plenty of PDA that came from people who were not drunk. Braws? Go look on youtube and you can find a few that happened right in the parks.My point is these types of behaviors were not exclusive to PI. If DIsney does decide to have some adult style clubs do you think spreading them out would curtail these behaviors from happening? I get that Disney wants to be a family friendly oriented resort. That one problem though, they have families that travel to the resort that have no children. When people go on vacation they want to relax have a drink or two....or three.

 

[dcibrando]

I know nothing!

Or....do I?

m

Good, big things coming?

Throw us a bone here lol

 

[GoofGoof]

I always thought PI concept was a nice offering. I don't drink, and I don't like loud music (I've never been able to hear people talk when there's a ton of background noise, so places like dance clubs just frustrate me). HOWEVER, on our last two trips with PI open, I had such horrible experiences on the busses from DTD that I've always wondered if it wasn't the crime and lewd behavior from having so many places dedicated to "partying" close so close together that played a role in their demise.

Since we usually travel in the summer, we have kind of made it a tradition to attend a late-night movie or two during our trips to Disney World (attend a midnight showing on an opening night). After the movie, On the bus trip to our hotels, we often encountered some obviously intoxicated people from PI.

Our kids were too young to come along, thank God, but one year, we sat in front of some people who were obviously drunk, and "attracted" to one another. Not only were they making out, but they were, shall we say, "making their way around the bases," oblivious to the fact that they were on a packed bus. I almost said something, but I have learned that people who are drunk aren't always in the best position to react reasonably when you confront them about their behavior.

The very next year, after our movie, we were almost caught in the middle of an all-out "bus brawl." The driver wound up stopping, calling Disney police, and 3 or 4 people had to be removed from the bus, with their own personal taxi ride to their hotel (probably with a few citations as souvenirs). That bus ride was the only time I have ever felt like I was not safe at Disney World.

When PI closed soon after, I shed no tears.

I wonder if Disney security and guests got fed up with stuff like this, and that was one of the reasons they decided to close the area. Maybe they thought that in the long-term, an area like this was more of a liability than an asset.

Now that it's expanding, I think there is room for a lot more nighttime adults-only entertainment at DTD, but perhaps not in one concentrated area like before.

I have to admit I remember a few very "fun" bus rides back from PI. I never saw any violent behavior, but I don't doubt it happened. I do remember buses breaking out in song a few times. It seemed like everyone was having a good time but then again I was intoxicated too. I imagine it may not be fun for some people to witness this behavior when they are sober. I don't doubt that what you are describing helped lead to the closing of PI. It's not like WDW is dry now or anything, but without the clubs there is definitely less of an emphasis on drinking and partying (food and wine excluded). I never witnessed it personally, but I spent enough time drinking in my younger days to know that when you mix drunk people with motor vehicles you sometimes get puke. I'm sure the bus drivers were happy to see PI close (except for the ones who got laid off since they didn't need all those late night buses anymore).

 

[G00fyDad]

I have to admit I remember a few very "fun" bus rides back from PI. I never saw any violent behavior, but I don't doubt it happened. I do remember buses breaking out in song a few times. It seemed like everyone was having a good time but then again I was intoxicated too. I imagine it may not be fun for some people to witness this behavior when they are sober. I don't doubt that what you are describing helped lead to the closing of PI. It's not like WDW is dry now or anything, but without the clubs there is definitely less of an emphasis on drinking and partying (food and wine excluded). I never witnessed it personally, but I spent enough time drinking in my younger days to know that when you mix drunk people with motor vehicles you sometimes get puke. I'm sure the bus drivers were happy to see PI close (except for the ones who got laid off since they didn't need all those late night buses anymore).

I never saw any violence either, but I did see the occasional drunk staggering down Westside or The Marketplace after leaving PI. on a couple of occasions we witnessed people standing off to the side with friends while they puked. Like you said, it isn't like Disney is dry now or anything, but you just don't see that garbage now that PI is closed. PI was a logistical screw up. They should have put PI at the end where The Market place is, gate it off, and have The Marketplace where PI was. That way they could have their own entrance and exit and be kept cut off from the rest of DTD. Sure, it wouldn't have stopped every drunk person from getting to the other sections of DTD but it would have mitigated much of it.

 

[articos]

Wow, I hadn't heard about that. I think I'll be an optimist and just get my hopes up.


I understand the Empress is never coming back. No need to be a fool about that, or to run a 15000 page 'Lament the Adventurers' Club'-kinda thread about it. But surely, it shouldn't be too much to ask that a paddlewheel steamboat has the two single elements that make it a paddlewheel steamboat: a paddlewheel, and smokestacks for the steam.
And no twenty feet wide 21st century neon signs please.
Oh, and if they could replace the banal crab house with an elegant restaurant inside, with jazz lounges and period furniture, that would be swell!

As part of the general construction and changeover to Springs, the Empress should get an exterior refurb, which look to replace her stacks and give her a sternwheel again. Let's hope it comes to pass. I haven't heard of any interior changes or that the tenant will change, but the contract is coming up for renewal, so anything could happen.

I have a motto for the new DTD. "It all started with a bowling alley".

Still think they need a preview center. I think when they revealed the animation effect people were quiet because it stunned them. It is very cool in the video. Also, I think many thought the idea of an expanded DTD was just a bunch of wishful thinking on forums like this. It is so much fun listening to people trying to downplay what was announced. And we still have plenty that will be revealed. Construction started on the new FotLK. The tide has turned.

The model/preview room in Splitsville where the intro event was held is the Preview Center for potential partners. They can walk people around the property, and show them the model in one visit. There is talk of a public preview center to come as well, which makes sense if they're going to be inconveniencing guests with major construction for a couple years. Always want to give guests something to see and look forward to. That could mean they just open the doors to the space at Splitsville and staff it. Don't know.


Regarding this discussion of Pop's delay and 9/11 vs. staffing, Pop was delayed due to market conditions after 9/11, as well as some financing concerns. However, there has been a staffing issue in some areas of hourly staffing for years that Disney is constantly working to fix. There is a perpetual shortage in some areas the company cannot get enough of a qualified base in the surrounding community. Pop was not delayed due to a staffing shortage, though.

 

[articos]

Your Welcome. Just hear to contribute. I've always like Mangum esp. hearing her interviews on the Disney Parks documentary vids, but it's good to know/hear of her good works from you. If this project and Carsland are being done/constructed at the same time, I'd imagine Jacobsen would take the lead on this project with Mangum supervising/overseeing this project in addition to her leading AND overseeing Disney Springs.

Kathy has responsibility that runs the overall portfolio of the FL property, including Springs and others. She is the principal from WDI on Springs. In the hierarchy, she is beneath Eric, who is SVP to Kathy's EVP, but Eric's portfolio concentrates on the parks. Simple, right? I like KM a lot, and I think she's one of the best people to execute this project in the industry today. She's a truly creative producer.

This brings me to some thoughts...

I do think the comparison to Old Town Pasadena is apt, except it's also completely wrong. This is a problem with today's (young, inexperienced or outsourced, underpaid) California WDI designers. (Not referring to Kathy here) They're too insular and "Cali"/trend oriented. If they had done more research, they'd have realized - as @TalkingHead pointed out here - their version of Old Florida, based on the artwork so far, is wrong in a lot of ways. In this case, we have a group of California designers who are looking primarily at the things in their backyard that they go to every day as their frame of reference. But California isn't Florida.

Old Town Pasadena is great if you want to think of it as a shopping/dining/bar district that is all adaptive reuse. I love Old Town, and go often. One of my favorite places to hang out in Southern California. But...it's an organic reuse, that grew over time, and even there, it doesn't feel authentic all the time. And...it's a normal shopping district, with a Gap and an Apple Store. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not "Disney".

I'm noticing the designers put a lot of Spanish and Craftsman architecture in, and they're doing talking points about the architecture choices, thinking that's "Old Florida". Nope. Take a drive, guys. Old Florida isn't Pasadena or Old Town San Diego or Americana. If you're looking for turn of the century winter resort towns that grew up around springs or Old Florida styles, go look around Winter Park or Mount Dora or Thornton Park, or even parts of downtown Orlando. (Also: Ormond Beach, Deltona, Port Orange, Cedar Key, Fort Myers, Lake Worth, Winter Haven...you know, the towns your "town" is supposedly based on.) Because your architecture of Spanish Med and Craftsman were not the prevalent architectures in those towns. FL had more Bungalow than Craftsman, and there is a difference. Spanish was around, but not prevalent in the early 1900s. FL had brick warehouses, but also a lot of plantation style, frame vernacular and other more common FL architecture. Not necessarily the buildings in the concept art.

Also: when the WDI team needed to solve a problem - in this case, shade structure - they had a bright idea: an abandoned elevated rail trestle! It's brilliant, and has been used to great effect in NYC with the High Line, which also has been a very "talked about" design-trend adaptable reuse story (very trendy!) that they're excited to "pay homage" (steal) and use in their story. (Elevated abandoned rail trestles are cool!) Great...it takes care of shade, it looks cool, the guests will talk about it, colleagues will talk about it...except Florida didn't have elevated rail trestles in small or large towns during that time frame. One, there wasn't a need, and two, FL has soft sandy ground and it would have been prohibitively expensive, especially in a sleepy FL "spring" town. I'm not saying don't do it...it does look cool, and if you want to fictionalize a scene, fine. But don't force it into a backstory that you're trying to base on "reality" when it doesn't work, based on the history. Especially if you don't need the backstory in the first place. I'll reserve final judgement til the place is built, but I firmly stand by this is a case where the story actually gets in the way. And yes, I know I'm nit-picking, and it will be beautiful and a lovely, completely fictional place to spend an afternoon when its done. (Grown from a very real historical place, the Village Shopping Center.) The base layer to all of this is this: Disney is looking at this as an outdoor lifestyle center. Nothing more, nothing less. They like to think that because they're Disney, it will automatically be better than anything else because it has story and will be pretty. I hate to say it, but in this case, others have beat them to the punch, and it won't be better just because the brand wants it to be. Which isn't the Disney we want, but it's the Disney we're getting circa 2013. But this is one project. There are others in the pipeline that will be great. And this is a heckuva lot better than Hyperion Wharf.

 

[GoofGoof]

I never saw any violence either, but I did see the occasional drunk staggering down Westside or The Marketplace after leaving PI. on a couple of occasions we witnessed people standing off to the side with friends while they puked. Like you said, it isn't like Disney is dry now or anything, but you just don't see that garbage now that PI is closed. PI was a logistical screw up. They should have put PI at the end where The Market place is, gate it off, and have The Marketplace where PI was. That way they could have their own entrance and exit and be kept cut off from the rest of DTD. Sure, it wouldn't have stopped every drunk person from getting to the other sections of DTD but it would have mitigated much of it.

So what you are saying is those lushes who can't hold their liquor ruined it for those of us who were responsible, high functioning drunks.

 

[djlaosc]

But this is one project. There are others in the pipeline that will be great.

Well, hopefully those other projects can move out of the pipeline and actually be built!

 

[flavious27]

Really need to see more mockups of the architecture designs used. I hope that they don't rely so much on the Victorian styling. I like GF and the boardwalk, but not every place with a waterfront should have that styling at wdw.

I found this online of what the area would look like with an overlay of what is already in place:

This is partly how I thought how that they would expand. This also would allow the landing / pi to limit access if needed.

 

[dreamscometrue]

If DIsney does decide to have some adult style clubs do you think spreading them out would curtail these behaviors from happening?

Yes I do actually. It think it's makes the destination somewhat less attractive for people who just want to party than 7-8 clubs on the little island. But, more importantly than where they are physically located are the actual offerings. I think that being able to get drinks at Raglan, Splitsville, HoB, Trader Sam's, some 'upscale' wine bars and a few other unique places, as opposed to the PI 'nightclubs', would be perfect for many of us. (But not so welcoming to those interested in going 'clubbing' for the night.)

 

[Funmeister]

You're factually incorrect. #NotOnFire.

LOL...no...but let's just agree to disagree. Amazes me that Disney would move forward with other projects in the same time frame but not Pop Century because of 9/11? It's ok...believe what you want based on what you think you know.

 

[flavious27]

Yes I do actually. It think it's makes the destination somewhat less attractive for people who just want to party than 7-8 clubs on the little island. But, more importantly than where they are physically located are the actual offerings. I think that being able to get drinks at Raglan, Splitsville, HoB, Trader Sam's, some 'upscale' wine bars and a few other unique places, as opposed to the PI 'nightclubs', would be perfect for many of us. (But not so welcoming to those interested in going 'clubbing' for the night.)

A mix between the clubs with bars and restaurants is what is needed to offer something to everyone.

 

[SirLink]

I know nothing!

Or....do I?

C'mon @Lee you know you wanna tell me I've got some Sterling here

 

[jt04]

Kathy has responsibility that runs the overall portfolio of the FL property, including Springs and others. She is the principal from WDI on Springs. In the hierarchy, she is beneath Eric, who is SVP to Kathy's EVP, but Eric's portfolio concentrates on the parks. Simple, right? I like KM a lot, and I think she's one of the best people to execute this project in the industry today. She's a truly creative producer.

This brings me to some thoughts...

I do think the comparison to Old Town Pasadena is apt, except it's also completely wrong. This is a problem with today's (young, inexperienced or outsourced, underpaid) California WDI designers. (Not referring to Kathy here) They're too insular and "Cali"/trend oriented. If they had done more research, they'd have realized - as someone else pointed out here - their version of Old Florida, based on the artwork so far, is wrong in a lot of ways. In this case, we have a group of California designers who are looking primarily at the things in their backyard that they go to every day as their frame of reference. But California isn't Florida.

Old Town Pasadena is great if you want to think of it as a shopping/dining/bar district that is all adaptive reuse. I love Old Town, and go often. One of my favorite places to hang out in Southern California. But...it's an organic reuse, that grew over time, and even there, it doesn't feel authentic all the time. And...it's a normal shopping district, with a Gap and an Apple Store. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not "Disney".

I'm noticing the designers put a lot of Spanish and Craftsman architecture in, and they're doing talking points about the architecture choices, thinking that's "Old Florida". Nope. Take a drive, guys. Old Florida isn't Pasadena or Old Town San Diego or Americana. If you're looking for a turn of the century winter resort towns that grew up around springs/Old Florida styles, go look around Winter Park or Mount Dora or Thornton Park, or even parts of downtown Orlando. (Also: Ormond Beach, Deltona, Port Orange, Cedar Key, Fort Myers, Lake Worth, Winter Haven...you know, the towns your town is supposedly based on.) Because your architecture: Spanish Med, Craftsman were not the prevalent architectures in those towns. FL had more Bungalow than Craftsman, and there is a difference. Spanish was around, but not prevalent in the early 1900s. FL had brick warehouses, but also a lot of plantation architecture, frame vernacular and other more common FL architecture. Not necessarily the buildings in the concept art.

Also: when the WDI team needed to solve a problem - in this case, shade structure - they had a bright idea: an abandoned elevated rail trestle! It's brilliant, and has been used to great effect in NYC with the High Line, which also has been a very "talked about" design-trend adaptable reuse (very trendy!) that they're excited to "pay homage" (steal) and use in their story. (Elevated abandoned rail trestles are cool!) Great, it takes care of shade, it looks cool, the guests will talk about it, colleagues will talk about it...except Florida didn't have elevated rail trestles in towns during that time frame. One, there wasn't a need, and two, FL is soft sandy ground and it would have been prohibitively expensive, especially in a sleepy FL "spring" town. I'm not saying don't do it...it does look cool, and if you want to fictionalize a scene, fine. But don't force it into a backstory that you're trying to base on "reality" when it doesn't work. Especially if you don't need the backstory in the first place. I'll reserve final judgement til the place is built, but I firmly stand by this is a case where the story actually gets in the way. And yes, I know I'm nit-picking, and it will be beautiful and a lovely place to spend an afternoon when its done. The base layer to all of this is this: Disney is looking at this as an outdoor lifestyle center. Nothing more, nothing less. They like to think that because they're Disney, it will automatically be better than anything else because it has story and will be pretty. I hate to say it, but in this case, others have beat them to the punch, and it won't be better just because the brand wants it to be. Which isn't the Disney we want, but it's the Disney we're getting circa 2013. But this is one project. There are others in the pipeline that will be great. And this is a heckuva lot better than Hyperion Wharf.

This is a great critique and I see now and agree with some of what you are saying. I hope WDI sees it too. Simply the springs area should be more true to the period. I would guess that much of the detail work is still being finalized.

As for the train, the elevated tracks will be on the West End which I believe will be the more urbanized industrial city motif and not old Florida. The train will appear on the old PI but not be elevated at that point. And per the artwork will fit the springs very well. IMO.

 

[SirLink]

I do think the comparison to Old Town Pasadena is apt, except it's also completely wrong. This is a problem with today's (young, inexperienced or outsourced, underpaid) California WDI designers. (Not referring to Kathy here) They're too insular and "Cali"/trend oriented. If they had done more research, they'd have realized - as someone else pointed out here - their version of Old Florida, based on the artwork so far, is wrong in a lot of ways. In this case, we have a group of California designers who are looking primarily at the things in their backyard that they go to every day as their frame of reference. But California isn't Florida.

Old Town Pasadena is great if you want to think of it as a shopping/dining/bar district that is all adaptive reuse. I love Old Town, and go often. One of my favorite places to hang out in Southern California. But...it's an organic reuse, that grew over time, and even there, it doesn't feel authentic all the time. And...it's a normal shopping district, with a Gap and an Apple Store. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not "Disney".

I'm noticing the designers put a lot of Spanish and Craftsman architecture in, and they're doing talking points about the architecture choices, thinking that's "Old Florida". Nope. Take a drive, guys. Old Florida isn't Pasadena or Old Town San Diego or Americana. If you're looking for turn of the century winter resort towns that grew up around springs or Old Florida styles, go look around Winter Park or Mount Dora or Thornton Park, or even parts of downtown Orlando. (Also: Ormond Beach, Deltona, Port Orange, Cedar Key, Fort Myers, Lake Worth, Winter Haven...you know, the towns your "town" is supposedly based on.) Because your architecture of Spanish Med and Craftsman were not the prevalent architectures in those towns. FL had more Bungalow than Craftsman, and there is a difference. Spanish was around, but not prevalent in the early 1900s. FL had brick warehouses, but also a lot of plantation style, frame vernacular and other more common FL architecture. Not necessarily the buildings in the concept art.
.

Well actually old Florida is St.Augustine which has a clear Spanish heritage, and that Flagler red brick design ...

Take a drive to St.Augustine

 

[articos]

Well actually old Florida is St.Augustine which has a clear Spanish heritage, and that Flagler red brick design ...

Take a drive to St.Augustine

Springs is purposefully not based on St. Augustine, although St. Augustine is the original Old Florida. They are going for a specific Old Florida based on the small towns like Winter Haven that sprang up around water timed around the mid-late 1800s-early 1900s.. And the Spanish influence in the art is not St. Augustine influence. The Flagler brick could and should definitely be used more, however.

Everyone should take a drive to St. Augustine at least once.

 

[articos]

This is a great critique and I see now and agree with some of what you are saying. I hope WDI sees it too. Simply the springs area should be more true to the period. I would guess that much of the detail work is still being finalized.

As for the train, the elevated tracks will be on the West End which I believe will be the more urbanized industrial city motif and not old Florida. The train will appear on the old PI but not be elevated at that point. And per the artwork will fit the springs very well. IMO.

Thank you. The West End will still be themed to the Old Florida backstory, just more of a warehouse industrial district for sugarcane or Florida based goods from back in the day. That's why it doesn't work. There was a vibrant train system in FL during those days, just not elevated. That was more a northern/city thing. I'm waiting to find out if the locomotive in the building makes it from concept to DD. I don't know if that piece of art is final or just pulled from the previous project files. I hope it stays.

 

[SirLink]

Springs is purposefully not based on St. Augustine, although St. Augustine is the original Old Florida. They are going for a specific Old Florida based on the small towns like Winter Haven that sprang up around water timed around the mid-late 1800s-early 1900s.. And the Spanish influence in the art is not St. Augustine influence. The Flagler brick could and should definitely be used more, however.

Well St.Augustine is on the coast, just saying -

Kathy did not specifically state Winter Haven though as well neither did she say it was not St.Augustine... and Flagler did employ designers who loved Moorish style architecture and Spanish Baroque, which will be the influence, and then ties back your 'train debacle' seen as he set up the Florida Railway...


Oh I love it up in St.Augustine...oh how I wish I was there now...