'Disney Springs' - Downtown Disney expansion officially announced

[WDW1974]

I think @WDW1974 just nailed it on the proverbial head. That's the word I could never find to describe what Walt Disney World has been lacking since I was a ten year old.

Sophistication.

And now, the competition (which never really had it) does.

I dare anyone to tell me the Poly is more sophisticated and classy than the Royal Pacific.

 

[WDW1974]

Seriously, can anyone realistically not say that they resemble the typical guest today?

I can tell you that in 1983 or 1993 people would have looked at them like 'poor white trash' and today they are the bread and butter. Where they get their money, the Boo-boos aside, is a whole 'nother matter.

 

[GLaDOS]

And now, the competition (which never really had it) does.

I dare anyone to tell me the Poly is more sophisticated and classy than the Royal Pacific.

Or Grand Floridian more so than Portofino Bay. Or Art of Animation compared to what Cabana Bay Beach will be.

Universal still needs to work on some things (dining inside the parks, specifically, as well as some problem areas such as KidZone), but overall they're catching up to Disney in the "little things" department quicker than I ever would have thought possible.

Spirit, I was wondering (and not to get too far off topic) if you knew how much of an impact Steve Burke has had on Uni parks? He helped get DLP through some tough times, and I know he loved the Disney parks, and was wondering how involved he is now with Uni's. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to clutter up this thread with this talk.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Yes - I've covered this in the past as well... the shift to park commandos has has a long negative impact on WDW. It's no longer a resort.. just theme parks with free transportation to a hotel.

I don't know how to unwind it now tho..

One path would be to disable the "park commandos". Things like MM+/FP/180 Day ADR are designed for and exploited by this group.Those three projects are structures that make a vacation to the world hectic and unbearable for normal folk. FP displays management's lack of understanding of the importance of themed environments. FP has guests running all around the park as opposed to going land by land. I'm not sure if it was @flynnibus, @HMF or someone else, but they had this great quote as their signature(paraphrasing) on MiceChat.

Disneyland was meant to be sipped, not chugaluged.

 

[WDWFigment]

This sums up the last few posts nicely.

I never get why people embrace being classless. My personal pet peeve is this store in the Indianapolis airport that prominently displays 'cow-tipping' shirts. They're absolutely tasteless and reinforce every negative stereotype about the state. They are what greets people arriving into the state.

Yet people around here wonder why there's such a problem with brain-drain.

 

[djlaosc]

Yes - I've covered this in the past as well... the shift to park commandos has has a long negative impact on WDW. It's no longer a resort.. just theme parks with free transportation to a hotel.

I don't know how to unwind it now tho..

The first thing I can think of is cheaper prices and longer opening hours for the parks, so you don't feel that you have to rush around/try so hard to get "value for money" - it's never going to happen though...

Another would be to reduce the "need" to preplan - ADRs/FP+ - if you could just walk up to a restaurant or a ride rather than trying to fit in your plans from 6 months ago...bbut that's never going to happen either...

 

[GLaDOS]

The first thing I can think of is cheaper prices and longer opening hours for the parks, so you don't feel that you have to rush around/try so hard to get "value for money" - it's never going to happen though...

Another would be to reduce the "need" to preplan - ADRs/FP+ - but that's never going to happen either...

Longer operating hours would do wonders to decrease the "commando" mentality, but also smaller offerings to dot the park with.

While I think things like Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom and Agent P in WS are poorly executed, the idea behind them I like. It makes people slow down and explore a little. Streetmosphere like the Citizens of Hollywood can also help slow people down and make them take stock of their surroundings.

But as of now, there are far too few "little things" in WDW's parks to make you stop and smell the roses.

Outside the parks and in the resort as a whole, I think Disney just needs to do a better job advertising the smaller recreation spots, as well as helping people get there easier. I've long been a fan of the 2 mini golf course on property, but they're both nearly impossible to get to if you don't have a car. If Disney had a free shuttle to them, maybe more people would use them. Just a small example in a larger, resort-wide problem.

 

[MichWolv]

Yes - I've covered this in the past as well... the shift to park commandos has has a long negative impact on WDW. It's no longer a resort.. just theme parks with free transportation to a hotel.

I don't know how to unwind it now tho..

It takes a guest who wants to relax to unwind that. We're in the minority, but my family always relaxes during a WDW vacation. But part of the reason we can do that is that we know we'll be back often enough that we don't worry about seeing everything in the parks. So we'll take a couple mornings and/or afternoons sitting by the pool. We find walking paths all over property, explore resorts, catch an outdoor showing of a Disney classic film, go to a storytelling hour, or find a comfortable place to sit for awhile in the evening in a hotel, on a beach, oustide at DtD. My wife and I have fallen asleep in hammocks at several resorts.

It's still possible to relax, it's just that, since the average family takes a vacation for about a week, and there's at least a week's worth of stuff to do in the parks (particular for the guest that only comes once every 5 years), people don't take advantage. Too bad, too.

 

[disneyeater]

The biggest thing WDW has lost in the last 10-15 years has been sophistication. Sure you can have all the alcohol you want. Just go to EPCOT at one of the now TWO Food and Wine Fests ... (wait,until someone suggests they make some aspect of them a permanent deal!).

That would be like selling the McRib year round. It wouldn't have the same type of draw. It would just feel like you muddled up WS for no real reason.

 

[jakeman]

Agree with your ideas for what Disney could do, but disagree with your comment "the days of closed off adult areas are over." I don't mind being around kids in general public spaces, theme parks, malls, etc. But it is nice to have an area where there are only people your age, or, above a certain age.

See: Disney Cruise Line.

Yeah, I've done the Disney Cruise Line and especially on the Dream that is about as well enforced as a Fastpass return time.

I agree that it's nice to have that area, but I think it has to be within the confines of the restaurant (i.e. stopping at the door) and not a cordoned off area anymore.

I think we are saying the same thing.

 

[muteki]

Yeah, I've done the Disney Cruise Line and especially on the Dream that is about as well enforced as a Fastpass return time.

That is definitely true about the pools on the Dream/Fantasy. They have signs up that it is the 18+ pool area but being where it is located they can't really enforce it. The Fantasy is better in this regard as it has additional pools on the upper decks that while smaller, are much more out of the way.

 

[Fe Maiden]

Yes - I've covered this in the past as well... the shift to park commandos has has a long negative impact on WDW. It's no longer a resort.. just theme parks with free transportation to a hotel.

I don't know how to unwind it now tho..

Destroy HS and AK and just go back to just the MK and Epcot.

My WDW vacations as a kid were so much different than they are today. We went golfing, took out the water sprites, went horseback riding, spent an afternoon shopping at the Village (which was a death sentence as a 10 yr old), had a relaxing Sunday brunch at the Contemporary.

And today, I'm just as guilty as the next person going commando. Sunday brunch? Now I'm constantly thinking three attractions ahead all day, every day when I'm there.

One thing that has helped reduce the stress a lot is avoiding the dining plan. We still make reservations but since we haven't paid ahead of time for the plan we don't mind cancelling if we want to do something else.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Sophisticated was what the original WDW Shopping Village at LBV was

... and the Empress Lilly featured some of the highest caliber dining in Central Florida well before the Grand Flo was even built with V&As.

There is a class/sophistication factor

Somebody mentioned 'class'...'sophistication'...'the Empress Lilly'?

Here are the 1982 plans for phase II of LBV (what will be Disney Springs). A New Orleans area that would've put New Orleans Square in DL to shame. Only the crown jewel ever got build: that paddlewheel steamship they named after a famous WDWMagic poster.

Be sure to spot the Empress Lilly on the left!:

Wish they would drop everything and build this instead. Classy, sophisticated, and, to add a third component: stylish and elegant.

 

[djlaosc]

Longer operating hours would do wonders to decrease the "commando" mentality, but also smaller offerings to dot the park with.

While I think things like Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom and Agent P in WS are poorly executed, the idea behind them I like. It makes people slow down and explore a little. Streetmosphere like the Citizens of Hollywood can also help slow people down and make them take stock of their surroundings.

But as of now, there are far too few "little things" in WDW's parks to make you stop and smell the roses.

Outside the parks and in the resort as a whole, I think Disney just needs to do a better job advertising the smaller recreation spots, as well as helping people get there easier. I've long been a fan of the 2 mini golf course on property, but they're both nearly impossible to get to if you don't have a car. If Disney had a free shuttle to them, maybe more people would use them. Just a small example in a larger, resort-wide problem.

Yeah, if the parks were open longer, you would feel that you would be able to slow things down and still be able to do all you wanted to do.

Smaller offerings - I agree about them, and it's something that we are looking at increasing doing in our own future trips. Last trip (2011), before we went, I decided that I wanted to experience some of the things that we hadn't done on our previous three trips, so, before we went, I made a list of everything in the parks (including things that aren't on the maps) - and, because of that, we got to experience some of these smaller or less popular offerings (for example, we saw Main Street Philharmonic, Spirit of America Fife & Drum Corps, Citizens of Hollywood (already done in 2007 - we always watch Dorma Nesmond - saw her twice in one day and she remembered me from earlier), DeVine, Tri-Wizard Spirit Rally, The Heritage Gallery, Tomb Warriors (already done in 2007), Hall of Presidents, Carousel of Progress, Ellen's Energy Adventure, American Adventure, StormStruck, Magic of Disney Animation, One Man's Dream - and all of those listed, we would do again. We also experienced partial shows of Off Kilter, British Revolution, the dancers in Morocco, Sergio the Juggler, Japanese Drummers and Mariachi Cobre - we have already decided for our next trip (2014), that we are going to take a day (or a couple of afternoons), and just wander World Showcase and just watch these acts - as I have said before, at a minimum, each World Showcase pavilion should have some sort of museum to wander through.

As for Sorcerers/Agent P - Sorcerers wasn't there last time, and we didn't do Agent P (Kim Possible at the time) - next time we go, we're going to collect the Sorcerer's Cards (how often does Disney give something away for free?), but don't know if we will play the game - especially if queues are involved.

Outside the parks, we have been to ESPNWWOS (but Tampa no longer train there), have rented a boat at Caribbean Beach (2005), surrey bike at Port Orleans (2007), made it to Boardwalk (2011), and the mini golf courses (we did all four in 2011 for the first time, and they are one of the main things I can remember doing - and we plan to do them again next time (especially as our tickets include 1 free round per day before 4pm), and I wish that somewhere like WWOS had things like batting cages for us international tourists to experience. We have also wandered some of the hotels (Wilderness Lodge, Fort Wilderness, Polynesian (including Electric Water Pageant), Animal Kingdom Lodge, Boardwalk). But, I do agree, better transportation is needed (either small shuttles like the Alamo busses, or even just one bus per "resort area").

But, then again, we were going 6am-12midnight for three weeks on our last holiday...

 

[articos]

Was going to stay away from this discussion as, right now, I've said all that I feel is worth saying. I think the presentation and the way it was handled speaks volumes and people will read into that whatever they choose based on their preconceived World views and/or knowledge ... BUT ... I like what you said there.

Sophisticated was what the original WDW Shopping Village at LBV was. And while Disney ran many of the shops, there was exactly ONE Disney merchandise shop. But Disney did run all the food and beverage. Over the years, the place got more sophisticated (other words to be used could be classy or adult). The LBV Club was more like a country club dining locale ... and the Empress Lilly featured some of the highest caliber dining in Central Florida well before the Grand Flo was even built with V&As. It was quite profitable and didn't cater to simpy the stroller brigade.

But that's the difference between WDW in the 70s and 80s and 90s and today. WDW has always been a family resort destination, but that never meant every location, every experience had to cater to the likes of a 5-year-old. There have always been bars, spas, restaurants that were places for ADULTS to congregate (akin to adults only areas on DCL).

The biggest thing WDW has lost in the last 10-15 years has been sophistication. Sure you can have all the alcohol you want. Just go to EPCOT at one of the now TWO Food and Wine Fests ... (wait,until someone suggests they make some aspect of them a permanent deal!) Want a club? Go to Atlantic Dance or Jellyrolls or Rix, just make sure you have money for a cab to get you back.

There is a class/sophistication factor that disappears everytime Disney adds carpeting with obvious Mickeys to a supposed deluxe resort ... or takes the theme of a resort and throws it away for rooms dedicated to the Disney BRAND and franchises ... or makes the Castle a place that only 4-year-old Princesses and their Mommies and Daddies and Gammies and Gampies can dine and shop at.

Disney believes it's adding 'class' back to DD, but all it's doing id bringing more of the outside world into its MAGICal realm. I don't really have an issue with it beyond the fact that yet again folks don't travel to WDW for DD (unless they're locals). There are four parks that need work, that have also lost that sophistication ... that class ... they once had.

I bet George Kalogridis can tell you all about how classy The Top of the World was and The Gulf Coast Room and how they weren't places for kids (well, except for those amazing Sunday Brunches that I used to go to as a kid, no characters included) ... if someone could actually find him.

THIS.

Spirit, I was wondering (and not to get too far off topic) if you knew how much of an impact Steve Burke has had on Uni parks? He helped get DLP through some tough times, and I know he loved the Disney parks, and was wondering how involved he is now with Uni's. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to clutter up this thread with this talk.

Briefly, from a top down perspective, Steve is very involved as far as the finances being released to P&R, the huge amounts being plowed into expansion, and the on-going deals not only in the US but also Moscow and Europe. He's also fully supportive and pushes the content side to work hand-in-hand with the parks. In short, Steve gets it.

Somebody mentioned 'class'...'sophistication'...'the Empress Lilly'?

Wish they would drop everything and build this instead. Classy, sophisticated, and, to add a third component: stylish and elegant.

If luck stays with you and budgets don't get slashed, it's looking like you're getting your stacks and wheel back. Here's hoping.

 

[shannon12]

Somebody mentioned 'class'...'sophistication'...'the Empress Lilly'?

Here are the 1982 plans for phase II of LBV (what will be Disney Springs). A New Orleans area that would've put New Orleans Square in DL to shame. Only the crown jewel ever got build: that paddlewheel steamship they named after a famous WDWMagic poster.

Be sure to spot the Empress Lilly on the left!:

Wish they would drop everything and build this instead. Classy, sophisticated, and, to add a third component: stylish and elegant.

Even 30 years ago Disney didn't like to go to phase two!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

If luck stays with you and budgets don't get slashed, it's looking like you're getting your stacks and wheel back. Here's hoping.

Wow, I hadn't heard about that. I think I'll be an optimist and just get my hopes up.


I understand the Empress is never coming back. No need to be a fool about that, or to run a 15000 page 'Lament the Adventurers' Club'-kinda thread about it. But surely, it shouldn't be too much to ask that a paddlewheel steamboat has the two single elements that make it a paddlewheel steamboat: a paddlewheel, and smokestacks for the steam.
And no twenty feet wide 21st century neon signs please.
Oh, and if they could replace the banal crab house with an elegant restaurant inside, with jazz lounges and period furniture, that would be swell!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Even 30 years ago Disney didn't like to go to phase two!

None have ever been build, have they?

 

[jt04]

I think the comment there is trying to say that they looked at what to do with Pleasure Island, and initially came up with Hyperion Wharf. This only covered a transformation of what was PI, and would have been a small amount of retail and dining. When Tom Staggs took over PR, his two initial projects were to look at FL and DTD. We know the changes he made to FL, and he also made a huge decision to rework all of DTD, and not just the PI area. Hence the abandoning of Hyperion Wharf, and the start of what is now Disney Springs.

I was going to make this exact point. It is HW across the entire area and on a much much larger scale. To get an idea of the scale look at the former Mannequins structure and you can see the new areas make it look like a kiosk.

One of the problems with HW may have been that it was too close to a restaurant in L.A. that has a similar backstory. Could have created legal issues for the mouse.

I have to say that I like the turn-of-the-century Florida backstory MUCH more than HW. It has so many advantages such as the theme of natural springs and the water features, the mission architecture and a storyline that incorporates the Empress Lily and the lake. This is also the headwaters for the upper everglades so an educational aspect is also possible. Tom Staggs has hit a grand slam here and any retailer who is not trying to get in on this is really missing the boat.

The more I learn the more impressed I am. Seriously.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I was going to make this exact point. It is HW across the entire area and on a much much larger scale. To get an idea of the scale look at the former Mannequins structure and you can see the new areas make it look like a kiosk.

One of the problems with HW may have been that it was too close to a restaurant in L.A. that has a similar backstory. Could have created legal issues for the mouse.

I have to say that I like the turn-of-the-century Florida backstory MUCH more than HW. It has so many advantages such as the theme of natural springs and the water features, the mission architecture and a storyline that incorporates the Empress Lily and the lake. This is also the headwaters for the upper everglades so an educational aspect is also possible. Tom Staggs has hit a grand slam here and any retailer who is not trying to get in on this is really missing the boat.

The more I learn the more impressed I am. Seriously.

Impressed I am not- underwhelmed and unaffected is more like it - but I too like it better than HW.