News Disney plans to accelerate Parks investment to $60 billion over 10 years

[lazyboy97o]

Cheaper builds like Main Street Theatre would have added capacity but they axed that.

The Main Street Theater was not going to be a cheaper build. Part of the problem with older facilities that were built faster and cheaper is that they were well built faster and cheaper, so things weren’t always properly documented or done in ways conducive to future needs that weren’t really being considered.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I understand all that, I know it takes time to plan and develop things from Concept. My complaint is don't release that information to hype new attractions.

Follow the regional park plan and don't say anything til blueprints and plans are all done. Basically do what Universal did with Velocicoaster

You say you understand and then keep going with something that makes no sense if you do understand.

Regional park work is nowhere near the same scale in terms of time or people. A regional park can go from idea to opening day of a roller coaster in the time even Universal spends on just doing concept design.

The “blueprints and plans” are not done until the attraction is pretty much ready to open. Velocicoaster was absolutely announced before the “blueprints and plans” were done. The same for Hagrid’s which had huge, drastic cuts and redesigns during construction.

 

[Jrb1979]

You say you understand and then keep going with something that makes no sense if you do understand.

Regional park work is nowhere near the same scale in terms of time or people. A regional park can go from idea to opening day of a roller coaster in the time even Universal spends on just doing concept design.

The “blueprints and plans” are not done until the attraction is pretty much ready to open. Velocicoaster was absolutely announced before the “blueprints and plans” were done. The same for Hagrid’s which had huge, drastic cuts and redesigns during construction.

Ok I don't understand. I also don't understand how they go over budget so often and the need to spread costs of construction over multiple quarters either.

 

[MrPromey]

I e said plenty about vacant and under utilized space at Walt Disney World. But Universal Orlando Resort also has vacant attraction space. Islands of Adventure now has an entire land without its attractions.

So does that mean leaving a space empty is better or worse?

It's very true Uni has a HUGE chunk of space vacant right now that could definitely be developed into a complete land - totally agree, just like they have that smaller space between Diagon and MIB that isn't deep enough for a ride by itself (I've been behind there so I know there's not much backstage area) but could at least have some sort of new show added to.

As for IOA, we'll see how long is sits like that. Something tells me we'll see something happen there before we do the WOL Pavilion but maybe I'm wrong.

I suspect that stunt show space will continue to sit for a good while which as a guest doesn't make me happy to see but at the same time, Universal's not the one with attraction capacity deficiencies, either so it's apples and oranges, really.

Having said that, Universal's also been a heck of a lot more active in development over the last decade including right up to and at the earliest start right after the pandemic with their Florida development so lets not be tossing stones from a glass castle, here.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend Universal.

I have no fielty to them whatsoever and the moment they start acting like current Disney, I'm done with them, too.

Really? Those projects really weren’t that great. Complaining that they’re not building something that wasn’t really very good that people didn’t like is pretty much just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

Many of the aspects of projects that people complain about Disney cutting aren’t things that were publicized. We’re also not talking about the “General public” and what they know. We’re talking about fans who follow this stuff so the fact that Universal didn’t publicly announce the project is irrelevant because it was still known. Even if things were never announced, people would absolutely be going on and on if a Disney project was permitted for three attractions and those were all killed and only one new attraction ended up being added. Disney never announced the Bantha ride or third Pandora ride but people know they were cut.

I want to be clear, I'm not wearing any team jersey's, here. I don't know who's side you think I'm on in this but I'm nobody's cheerleader. As such, I do not claim to be speaking for "people" nor are these "people" you mention speaking for me.

What I see though, is a lot of "people" blaming COVID on Disney canceling a whole bunch of stuff that they ANNOUNCED and in that same time-frame, Universal has continued to build, despite their parent company having many of the same struggles as Disney with among other things, continuing to prop up their own streaming service that's far more destined to fail or get absorbed than D+ is.

I wasn't excited about any of the redo of Epcot but from my perspective, what we ended up with was some of the worst parts of that redevelopment they promised. Sorry if I don't count that as the win you, I guess, do.

So yeah, Universal canceled something that was never announced. I've not held Disney to the fire over anything they haven't announced, either so please don't try to interject any strawmen into this debate with me or at least maybe take that up with whoever has been squawking about it.

You're better than that.

My issue isn’t constant complaining. I do plenty. My general view is quite pessimistic. My problem is when the complaints are based on inconsistent nonsense.

Also, I know this wasn't part of your direct response to me but I want it to be known that my nonsense has been consistent for many years, now.

 

[BrianLo]

Indeed. If Disney wasn't saying anything about their plans for the parks, people on here would be upset. However, when Disney states they have big plans with some numbers attached, people are upset because they are not saying precisely what those plans are. When Disney released Blue Sky concepts before they had anything concrete to announce, fans got upset they were announcing projects too early in the development phase.

I honestly wasn't a fan of all the Blue Sky announcements over recent years, except for the course correction announcement of Tropical Americas for Animal Kingdom to reassure people they weren't going to completely disregard the park's current theme. Still, you can't complain that they announce things too early in the development process and then complain that they are not sharing all their plans before they are finalised.

I agree, this is succinctly my point as well. It seems everyone is upset that Imagineering was gutted, projects cancelled and everything put into a holding pattern. We know there is a major 3-4 year investment gap, largely blameable on the Pandemic, Streaming and Chapek, probably in that order. If you didn’t realize this as it was happening, I suspect one has blacked out 2020/21 from their brain.

I for one am glad to learn it isn’t a 7-10 year gap. Which was certainly the way things could have played out had the company and Wall Street not pivoted so hard towards the parks.

Before I get whataboutisms with Universal or Tokyo, these projects benefited from being at a certain critical phase. They were also 9-10 year long gesticulating projects! WDW was just coming down from its cycle. Much in the same way WDSP was not outright canned, which was in their control. It also terribly undermines how much more exposed to the Pandemic Disney was than Comcast, who had their core buisness functioning reasonably well.

We cannot undo the past, but at least the future direction seems aggressive to the parks favour.

 

[BrianLo]

you'd think they'd at least have been in the planning stages and preparing to start construction once the funds started rolling in.

And it would be nice to think they were...

Unfortunately, they were not. The sooner that is an accepted fact, the easier it is to process why what is happening is happening.

Pick your poison. Pandemic, lake Nona, Streaming. Leadership is ‘dumb’ and lacked foresight. Does not matter, but it happened. Imagineering was gutted to the bear bones to maintain the projects it needed to. Fortunately bear bones does not mean nothing. There were significant project teams to support the Asian Park developments, the fumes of Epcot, some entertainment team, the cruise lines, DVC, etc. but there were no project teams sitting around pitching empty projects trying to justify their jobs. They were all fired or quit.

The real optimistic read is some employees started to be freed up 18 months ago as projects progressed. The realistic read is 12 months ago as the Asian Parks projects wrapped and hiring in Imagineering took off. Even still today Imagineering is not where it needs to be, but there’s a lot of projects that have wrapped in 2023.

These are the timelines. Pandora we have a good amount of insight took 2.5 years from nothing to construction. Which actually doesn’t seem as long in retrospect, but boy were the forums whining about it. That was a project with two notorious creatives (James Cameron and Joe Rohde) and did have some known hiccoughs along the way.

Another extremely optimistic view is a project could be sped along in 18 months. But I still think 24-30 is the base.

So do the math. Nothing is being built of major note until next year. That’s where we are and there’s just no getting around it. But I do think D23 in August provides an adequate window into some firmer projects.

 

[pdude81]

I'd say sort of. It's hard to compare star wars and potter from a location standpoint. Potter is basically in a few locations for all the movies. And star wars takes place in different locations in every movie. That said, Tatooine with mos eisley and Jabbas palace. And the forest moon with the shield generator and and the ewok village scream star wars.

In a land based on tatooine you could have done an escape from jabbas palace ride, similar to rise of the resistance. You could have kept the falcon ride. And you could have had a Boonta eve pod race attraction, giving the land some much needed kinetic energy. There's plenty of ideas for the forest moon as well.

That said, the black spire location isn't the problem. They had multiple opportunities to get everyone familiar with the settings in the films. They didn't. They could have celebrated all of star wars. They didn't. There was was no real attachment to the land for most people outside of the falcon. There's a lot they could have done to give that star wars feel. But they figured they didn't have to because, it's star wars, they'll just eat anything up.

I still think they should build Tatooine as part of DL Forward and a Forest Moon/Endor land at DHS to complement Batuu. Obviously they should have allowed for OT characters in the lands they built before, but I think the mistake can largely be corrected just by adding more things people want.

 

[lentesta]

Hold up, the $17B is very clearly part of the $60B they’re planning. Otherwise they’d say $77B in the filing.

It's definitely part of the $60B.

I've listened to Bob's talk and read Josh's notes. It's still a little vague to me whether the $17B for "Florida" includes DCL money. Is there something specific (and that they've said more than once) that indicates $17B for Walt Disney World?

 

[Bocabear]

If that includes DCl, then we are screwed... A new ship, a completely rebuilt "Private Island and at least half that 17b budget is gone.... if in fact it is really 17B... a couple more DVC projects, some infrastructure, maintenance, and we will be lucky to have enough money left for a couple spinner attractions at WDW...lol

 

[Tha Realest]

It's definitely part of the $60B.

I've listened to Bob's talk and read Josh's notes. It's still a little vague to me whether the $17B for "Florida" includes DCL money. Is there something specific (and that they've said more than once) that indicates $17B for Walt Disney World?

I hope they don’t get too cute with the verbiage here. There can be some major wage & hour and tax issues if suddenly these major cruise ships are flagged “in Florida.”

 

[MrPromey]

...

These are the timelines. Pandora we have a good amount of insight took 2.5 years from nothing to construction. Which actually doesn’t seem as long in retrospect, but boy were the forums whining about it. That was a project with two notorious creatives (James Cameron and Joe Rohde) and did have some known hiccoughs along the way.

...

And it has, I think, become pretty much accepted in these parts that Pandora was rushed as an announcement after excitement wasn't as high for NFL in response to WWOHP as management had anticipated.

Whether that's true or not, who knows but they made the announcement three days after the contracts were signed and rushed to release that PR shot of them breaking ground, strongly implying they were... um... actually ready to break ground.

This goes back to that thing about them announcing too early.

As you mentioned, pick your poison for why - there is no good place to be here since anything they announce now will likely not be much further along than that was but if they sit on it until construction is ready, who knows when that announcement is coming, right?

For me, I'm more interested in will my 11 year old son be off to college by the time whatever they might announce is opening? Will it even matter in my household by that point?

 

[SplashJacket]

If that includes DCl, then we are screwed... A new ship, a completely rebuilt "Private Island and at least half that 17b budget is gone.... if in fact it is really 17B... a couple more DVC projects, some infrastructure, maintenance, and we will be lucky to have enough money left for a couple spinner attractions at WDW...lol

I truly doubt it does…

Even in the loosest sense, it’s a stretch to say a Bahamian island is investment in Florida.

They already built a new cruise port in Fort Lauderdale, which should get them through the decade alongside Port Canaveral.

And for the two new Triton class, one is going to Port Canaveral, and the other elsewhere. So it really doesn’t make sense to lump in DCL investments into “Florida” even if the hard distinction doesn’t clarify WDW (I’m not sure if it does or not, but just hypothetically).

 

[Andrew25]

I truly doubt it does…

Even in the loosest sense, it’s a stretch to say a Bahamian island is investment in Florida.

They already built a new cruise port in Fort Lauderdale, which should get them through the decade alongside Port Canaveral.

And for the two new Triton class, one is going to Port Canaveral, and the other elsewhere. So it really doesn’t make sense to lump in DCL investments into “Florida” even if the hard distinction doesn’t clarify WDW (I’m not sure if it does or not, but just hypothetically).

Well DCL is based in Celebration, Florida... so that's why we have to question what is included lol

When they said $17B in Florida investments, it could include DCL-related projects as that technically generates revenue for the state if it meant more employment in the area.

There's a reason why corporations love vague statements.

 

[PREMiERdrum]

And it has, I think, become pretty much accepted in these parts that Pandora was rushed as an announcement after excitement wasn't as high for NFL in response to WWOHP as management had anticipated.

Whether that's true or not, who knows but they made the announcement three days after the contracts were signed and rushed to release that PR shot of them breaking ground, strongly implying they were... um... actually ready to break ground.

It's true. I was still working in local TV news at the time and was very connected with plenty of comms folks involved.

The New Fantasyland, New Test Track, and Splistville 3-day media preview party was incredible... easily the best part of the whole expansion. Unfortunately.

 

[SplashJacket]

Well DCL is based in Celebration, Florida... so that's why we have to question what is included lol

When they said $17B in Florida investments, it could include DCL-related projects as that technically generates revenue for the state if it meant more employment in the area.

There's a reason why corporations love vague statements.

I mean by that logic, DCL would take $12 of $17 billion or $15.6 B assuming 30% maintenance in addition to $12 B, leaving $1.4 B for WDW.

Even in the lowest waves of investment, I think we can all rule out $1.4 B for WDW.

Even $5B is pretty low, because that would leave $30 Billion for the remaining 5 destinations around the world at an average of $6 billion. The numbers also go against against the sentiment that they’re trying to lean into growth at WDW.

 

[wannabeBelle]

But if there is no announcements what happens with D23? Would you pay money to attend a fan meet up with the opportunity to spend more money on merch if there is no new announcements coming? Marie

 

[Ayla]

Well DCL is based in Celebration, Florida... so that's why we have to question what is included lol

When they said $17B in Florida investments, it could include DCL-related projects as that technically generates revenue for the state if it meant more employment in the area.

There's a reason why corporations love vague statements.

There is a reason very few cruise ships are US-flagged. If they are, they have to follow US laws in regard to wages, crew hours and taxes. It doesn't matter where the company is based, it is where the ship is flagged.

 

[MrPromey]

But if there is no announcements what happens with D23? Would you pay money to attend a fan meet up with the opportunity to spend more money on merch if there is no new announcements coming? Marie

That's why a lot of us are anticipating there will be an announcement, even if things have just been green-lit and are only a hairs breath beyond blue sky when they do.

I mean, people buy their tickets before having any idea if anything will be said or not but I don't think they're going to be able to get away with the "wouldn't it be cool if..." for a third year in a row.

 

[Andrew25]

I mean by that logic, DCL would take $12 of $17 billion or $15.6 B assuming 30% maintenance in addition to $12 B, leaving $1.4 B for WDW.

Even in the lowest waves of investment, I think we can all rule out $1.4 B for WDW.

Even $5B is pretty low, because that would leave $30 Billion for the remaining 5 destinations around the world at an average of $6 billion. The numbers also go against against the sentiment that they’re trying to lean into growth at WDW.

Not arguing numbers, just pointing out that the "investment in Florida" comment is a very vague statement. I'm expecting WDW to get a massive investment far more than $1.4B.

There is a reason very few cruise ships are US-flagged. If they are, they have to follow US laws in regard to wages, crew hours and taxes. It doesn't matter where the company is based, it is where the ship is flagged.

Well aware, my statement has nothing to do with that lol

 

[celluloid]

I mean, people buy their tickets before having any idea if anything will be said or not but I don't think they're going to be able to get away with the "wouldn't it be cool if..." for a third year in a row.

I think there will be a lot of that. One or two new pieces of concept art for everything already known. And a LOT of Disneyland Forever project expansion bragging(including Avatar)