News Disney Not Renewing Great Movie Ride Sponsorship Deal with TCM ; Attraction to Close

RobidaFlats

Well-Known Member
But what if an IP setting is broad enough to incorporate many kinds of settings? Star Wars, for instance, can do war stories, crime stories, mysticism, etc., in addition to the sci-fi elements most associate it with.

My specific comment here was merely to clarify the difference between what was described as being the same in principle.

However, you raise an interesting point. Honestly, I'm not sure and would have to think about the specifics of the IP, mainly how it would fit within the larger park itself, but my first reaction is that it is unnecessarily limiting. Star Wars is an interesting example because it has shown staying-power, but for other IPs, if they were ever to fade, the entire land would have to be redone as opposed to just a specific attraction. I'd have to give it a lot more thought before giving a more concrete opinion.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I'm not sure and would have to think about the specifics of the IP, mainly how it would fit within the larger park itself, but my first reaction is that it is unnecessarily limiting.

How is it any more limiting than an area based on the American West or Colonial America?
 

RobidaFlats

Well-Known Member
How is it any more limiting than an area based on the American West or Colonial America?

Those are broad genres that even while rising and falling in popularity like everything else, are broad enough to encompass new IPs as they arise. By means of an example, if Frontierland had been themed exclusively to The Lone Ranger, you would be limited to only that IP, even when it went off the air and became less and less relevant. By keeping the theme as a broad genre, it allows you to add Davy Crockett, or Tom Sawyer or any number of IPs that could be switched out, or even better, the creation of a new ride without any attachment to existing IP at all.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Those are broad genres that even while rising and falling in popularity like everything else, are broad enough to encompass new IPs as they arise. By means of an example, if Frontierland had been themed exclusively to The Lone Ranger, you would be limited to only that IP, even when it went off the air and became less and less relevant.

Not so! You could put in the Green Hornet! They're related. :bookworm:

By keeping the theme as a broad genre, it allows you to add Davy Crockett, or Tom Sawyer or any number of IPs that could be switched out, or even better, the creation of a new ride without any attachment to existing IP at all.

I understand that, and with an IP like Avatarland, you have a point. But Star Wars and Marvel, for instance however have a broad array of characters and settings to choose from.
 

RobidaFlats

Well-Known Member
Not so! You could put in the Green Hornet! They're related. :bookworm:

Well played.

I understand that, and with an IP like Avatarland, you have a point. But Star Wars and Marvel, for instance however have a broad array of characters and settings to choose from.

I previously acknowledged the uniqueness of Star Wars and accept that the Marvel example is also a bit different given its size and scope. I imagine that the primary question with such lands would be the way it was incorporated into the larger park.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstand the argument. Each of those lands is themed to a genre that contains all of those IPs and is not themed to a particular IP itself. Avatarland, for example, would be the equivalent of making Treasure Island-Land. If Avatarland was contained within Sci-Fi-Land or Alien-Land or something similar, that would be more congruous to the originals.
That was due to lack of content and fads. Back in 1955 Disney didn't have the extensive IP content that it has today. Due to the lack of content and the fact that certain IP's were very much fads (such as Davy Crockett and Zorro) it would have been foolish for Disney to create a separate land devoted exclusively to one character. Back in the 1950's, Western TV shows and movies were very popular and Frontierland was created to take advantage of those IP's. When Davy Crockett's popularity waned, Walt was ready with a new Western hero in Zorro, Texas John Slaughter and a few others.

Today with the proven long term popularity of Star Wars and Toy Story it makes perfect sense to create lands exclusively devoted to those IP's. Another problem that arises is copyright issues. Disney has got to be careful to make sure they reap all the profits they can get from their IP's. Some of their Fantasyland characters are in the public domain so it makes little sense for Disney to promote those properties.

A good example of this is Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. All of these characters are in the public domain, except that the Seven Dwarfs are still under Disney copyright if the Disney names of the dwarfs are used. In the Brothers Grimm story the dwarfs did not have individual names.

But the entire point is IP is at the root of all that Disney does now and all that they did in the past. They have always cross promoted their IP in media, print, music and now social media. Licensing is at the very heart of the company. Mickey is 88 years old and is still not yet in the public domain! Whether a land consists of one or more IP's makes little difference. What's the difference between the Astro-Orbiter and Dumbo? Dumbo sells more plush!
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Whether a land consists of one or more IP's makes little difference.!
So what was the Horizons IP? A so loose it's unbelievable Man in Space?

Space Mountain?

Big Thunder?

Mansion?

Kitchen Kabaret?

Twist it all you like. It makes a huge difference. Balance is the key. Once that's tipping the wrong way.

Everything has a genre. Corporate cross promotion and synergy pushes genre into IPs that don't belong.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
How is it any more limiting than an area based on the American West or Colonial America?
Because Theme isn't about the kinds of stories you can tell, it's about the tools you can use to tell them with. You can tell whatever story you want (or don't) in Star Wars Land, but you have to use the people, places, and things from Star Wars to do it.

The American West is hugely broad in terms of the people, places, and thing encompassed in it. Star Wars? As far as movie franchises go it's surely one of the broadest, but no where near the breadth of "Adventure". "The Frontier". "Fantasy". "Tomorrow". Those are Themes. Umbrellas under which different franchises can fall. Many tools fit in those belts. Star Wars is but one franchise. A powerful tool, but still only one.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
Today with the proven long term popularity of Star Wars and Toy Story it makes perfect sense to create lands exclusively devoted to those IP's. Another problem that arises is copyright issues. Disney has got to be careful to make sure they reap all the profits they can get from their IP's. Some of their Fantasyland characters are in the public domain so it makes little sense for Disney to promote those properties.

A good example of this is Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. All of these characters are in the public domain, except that the Seven Dwarfs are still under Disney copyright if the Disney names of the dwarfs are used. In the Brothers Grimm story the dwarfs did not have individual names.
If you think Disney doesn't make money off of Snow White because the Grimm Fairy Tale is in the public domain, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
How is it any more limiting than an area based on the American West or Colonial America?

Isn't it obvious? "American West" theme allows for the Shooting Gallery, the Saloon, the Stagecoach Ride, the Mine Train Mountain, Davy Crockett, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, Lone Ranger, John Ford, Sherman Alexie, whatever, etc.

A land devoted to one IP begins and ends with that IP, no matter how expansive that character universe is. A Star Wars land can theoretically include different genres (although who are we kidding, it's going to be all sci-fi/adventure), but it's still restricted to that property.
 

RoysCabin

Well-Known Member
I couldn't disagree with you more. All the "lands" in the Disney parks were based solely upon IP's that were popular in 1955. Adventureland was solely based up the Disney series "True Life Adventures" and the movies "Treasure Island" and later "Swiss Family Robinson". Frontierland was based upon Davy Crockett and other frontier Disney series. Fantasyland is obvious. Tomorrowland was based upon the TV show:

And don't forget that the Disneyland TV show was nothing more than an advertisement to get people to come to the park! Walt was a great salesman!


I'm sorry to sound nitpicky, but you can't say "these lands were based solely on..." and then proceed to list 3 or 4 direct influences. "Solely" would be if they were like the current developments, entirely based upon a single IP; if they're based on 3 or 4, then they're being influenced by an entire genre, albeit genres that Walt Disney Productions were certainly emphasizing in the mid 50s, as you indicated.

I agree with what a few others are saying here: the key, in my book, is to ensure that you never unnecessarily limit yourself from a creative perspective. Yes, any land that's developed requires theming, and theming in and of itself has a slightly limiting quality (e.g. not every concept can fit into Frontierland, or Future World, or Harambe Village, or Sunset Boulevard), but most of the lands Disney has developed up to this point have minimized the risk of limitation by making their themes quite broad and expansive. Lots of people can understandably ask why the MK Haunted Mansion is located in Liberty Square, but all it took back in '71 was some smart architectural theming by WED Ent. and, next thing you know, it blended right in.

Something like Avatar Land presents a big risk in this regard. While we're all hopeful that it turns out great, and while I'm sure there'll be some wonderful aspects to it, James Cameron's Avatar is simply not a red hot property, and it's questionable if its forthcoming sequels will propel it significantly back toward prominence in the public eye. If Avatar winds up being a decently successful but by and large unmemorable film franchise, then the themed area's relevance is given an unnecessarily short shelf life. This presents a potentially big problem should a retheme become necessary, though I've been thinking from the start that Disney is likely going to build this land in such a way that they can give themselves an out on it should they ever want to retheme. Still, there's the potential for the creative process to be hamstrung by a film franchise that as of now is no guarantee to be particularly popular over the next decade.

Star Wars Land presents a different challenge. Given that the franchise is about to hit its 40th anniversary and has a few more films in the immediate offing (and a very successful recent installment), it clearly has the legs, the cross-generational appeal, the rabid fanbase, and the relevance to support an entire themed area, much the way Potter works in Universal. However, it too also carries the possibility of unnecessary limitations from a creative point of view; I'm fully aware of how expansive the Star Wars universe is (I still have my old, mid 90s copies of Timothy Zahn's Grand Admiral Thrawn trilogy packed away), but any attractions, rides, or architecture you create must be influenced by Star Wars and Star Wars alone. While I think SW Land can have better staying power than Avatar Land, it's still more limiting than something with a broader theme, like a Sci-Fi land (1994 Tomorrowland?) or the original concept of Beastly Kingdom.

None of this is to say those areas are going to be failures, far from it, but it's my opinion that adding layers of unnecessary creative limitations as a rule of thumb rather than as an exception for a major property like Star Wars is an ill-advised direction to follow long term.
 
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BD-Anaheim

Well-Known Member
With a GMR replacement for a Mickey Ride, and the potential removal of "Hollywood" from the park name, this makes me wonder if there will be an overhaul of Hollywood Blvd. Could Hollywood Blvd get a Mickey Avenue Shanghai overlay to compliment a new centerpiece Mickey attraction?
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
With a GMR replacement for a Mickey Ride, and the potential removal of "Hollywood" from the park name, this makes me wonder if there will be an overhaul of Hollywood Blvd. Could Hollywood Blvd get a Mickey Avenue Shanghai overlay to compliment a new centerpiece Mickey attraction?

There better not be. I've been forgiving of a lot, but if they take Hollywood or Sunset Boulevard from me, I'll be mad!

... I'll still go to the parks, of course, but I'll be scowling while I do it!
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
There better not be. I've been forgiving of a lot, but if they take Hollywood or Sunset Boulevard from me, I'll be mad!

... I'll still go to the parks, of course, but I'll be scowling while I do it!
You could also spend less while you do it and stay offsite. Bring in snacks of your own too. Plenty of ways to "stick it to the man." Then of course the big one: knowing a cast member and getting in for free. Combine all of that and you enjoy the parks while Disney doesn't get a single cent. The ultimate middle finger.
 

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