News Disney Not Renewing Great Movie Ride Sponsorship Deal with TCM ; Attraction to Close

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
With the exception of Universe of Energy which gave us a slow moving theater through dioramas and films, every ride built for Epcot Center was either an omni-mover or boat slowly moving past dioramas and filmed segments. The themes were different, but the execution was blandly similar. Surely there were other ways to edutain us. I was sad to see recently that one of the early space pavilions included... a slow omni-mover through dioramas. Before Body Wars came to be, the plan was... a slow moving omnimover.

I hate trying to reduce things to such a simplistic form, but it seems the lens everything is currently viewed through. So can we say the omnimover was even more of a crutch than screenz are today?

No, we can't say that, because that would be very silly.

I have to ask... did you ever go to EPCOT in its heyday? Because your opinion doesn't sound like someone who actually experienced the rides.

The omni-movers were not "blandly similar." Nothing could be further from the truth. The tone of each ride was very different - the wit of WoM, the whimsical fantasy of Imagination, the futurism of Horizons. The art design was different. The ride vehicles were different. The progression of the story was different. There was absolutely no sense of "sameness."

Dismissing them because they used vaguely similar ride systems is like saying "Oh, Casablanca is basically the same thing as Transformers, right? They're both a series of images projected in rapid succession..."

Not a single thing has been improved at Epcot since the days of the omnimover. Not one thing. Its an amazing record of poor choices and stupidity. Honestly - all the choices they've made, and every aspect of that park is worse than it used to be. Breathtaking.
 

phillip9698

Well-Known Member
With the exception of Universe of Energy which gave us a slow moving theater through dioramas and films, every ride built for Epcot Center was either an omni-mover or boat slowly moving past dioramas and filmed segments. The themes were different, but the execution was blandly similar. Surely there were other ways to edutain us. I was sad to see recently that one of the early space pavilions included... a slow omni-mover through dioramas. Before Body Wars came to be, the plan was... a slow moving omnimover.

I hate trying to reduce things to such a simplistic form, but it seems the lens everything is currently viewed through. So can we say the omnimover was even more of a crutch than screenz are today?

If every ride was a dark ride with either a boat or some sort of tram a lot of people would consider that heaven. There are always complaints such as "why does a park need more than one coaster" or "nobody likes screens they shouldn't build screen rides" but you never see anyone complaining about slow dark rides. I think it's the audience and nostalgia factor. In the park people love TSMM, it's one of the highest rated rides, yet it's abhorred on the forums as a waste of money because of "cheap screens" and "not a true dark ride".

Its like Disney isn't avowed to branch out beyond the slow dark ride. There are plenty of them there and they plan to build more but that doesn't stop the griping once a new ride is revealed to not be a slow moving dark ride.
 

RoysCabin

Well-Known Member
I really can't get on board the "blame millenials" train in any aspect here: millenials are not among the top decision makers at corporate or Imagineering, nor are we likely the drivers of a lot of the park material given that we're not exactly being marketed to very heavily by Disney, as the company has long moved away from the young couples market and seems to be focused intently on families with young children.

As for dark rides, let's not oversimplify here, either; "hardcore" park fans, whatever you want to call us/them, still love attractions like the mountain rides, like Tower of Terror, etc. etc., along with theater shows and other varieties of non-dark rides. However, I think it's fair to say that the dark ride is where Disney made itself stand out from all other competitors over the years in the most visible, memorable ways. The Imagineering philosophy was built on lessons brought over from the filmmaking world, and the dark ride format allows for the clearest medium with which to replicate the cinematic form in the tangible world; it was here that Disney left its stamp, utilizing cinematic techniques in three dimensions and treating show scenes as movie scenes, vehicle positioning as camera positioning, proper lighting, music and mood setting, etc.

Beyond that, such rides tend to allow for lengthier experiences (something sorely lacking today as we move toward more and more 3-4 minute rides), and the slower pace allows one to take in more details and minutiae, which in turn can increase re-rideability. Obviously thrill rides often have a solid re-rideability factor, as well, but they often can't replicate the show length of a dark ride and may not have the chance to do as many varied visual or audio/musical effects as a slower dark ride. Basically, while a place like old school EPCOT Center had numerous rides of a similar style, the attractions themselves nonetheless were able to become varied in so many ways and could be made lengthy enough that each felt like experiencing a mini-movie. The loss of the 10+ minute dark ride in so many places around the resort is one of the more regrettable changes in recent years, and I think a big reason it's happening isn't because "millenials get bored too easily", it's more about "these are more expensive to upkeep, so let's do some value engineering." Many rides now end up with lower capacities, longer queues, and all too often more limited artistic impacts, especially as more and more lean heavily on simply replicating visuals and musical cues from pre-existing films and properties.
 
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marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
. So can we say the omnimover was even more of a crutch than screenz are today?
No, since it was a ride system not a medium.

It was a ride system that was sufficiently different in each of its uses in the park. It wasn't like half a dozen Haunted Mansions.

At its peak there were five in the park. Hardly shocking from the company that invented the modern version.

Don't forget also two boat rides (again both sufficiently different), a flume ride, two circlevisions, a five screen theatre, 3 independent single screen theatre attractions, a travelling theatre with 3 theatres of its own, an amazing multimedia theatre, a simulator attraction and numerous exhibit shows.

When you look at it realistically it's not a problem. On the contrary. The ride systems were one of the parks strengths.

The biggest point to make is Futureworld alone could handle twenty three and a half thousand guests actually in attractions per hour. Omnimovers were a great part of this.
 
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The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Omnimovers, even to this date, have some of the highest capacity of any ride system. Horizons had a capacity as high as Soarin' and Test Track combined. Every pavilion an E-ticket, every E-ticket a crowd guzzler.

EPCOT's omnimovers and boat rides and large theaters were the eighties answer to the long lines and crowded conditions in the MK (which back then had half the visitors with more attractions): build high capacity rides. And wide pathways, large open spaces. EPCOT is the anti-MK, its design must be understood in relation to the MK, of which it sought to solve its biggest problems, and from which it tried to distinguish itself vor variety.

Omnimovers are inclusive. Everybody can ride, from the six month old to the eighty year old, of any height or physical limitation. Unlike the modern E-ticket. If you are not healthy, over 8 and under 65, and of certain height, which E-ticket can you ride in DAK? Not Everest, not Kali, not Dinosaur, and even the Safari is brutal, in the back of the truck too rough for all but the fit.
 
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The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
I completely agree! In my opinion, most of the rides should be dark rides. I am bias because I love the dark rides more than thrill rides. I could care less if I ride most of the thrill rides on a trip to Disney. The dark rides just scream Disney to me.
It is the dark rides where takes place the storytelling, the placemaking, the immersion into other worlds, the dreamlike state.

It is one of those intangibles, misunderstood by managers and also the general public. At first glance, the big thrill would appear the more attractive. Everybody would name 'yuge roller coaster' as new ride they would look most forward too, nobody would say 'slowly being ridden past tableaux of Phoenicians'. And yet, it is SSE where the mystery and magic happens.
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
I have to ask... did you ever go to EPCOT in its heyday? Because your opinion doesn't sound like someone who actually experienced the rides.

Yes, in 1983, I was ten. It blew my little mind. I loved it. It was and remained my favorite park for its first decade. I would love to expound on its merits which are legion.

But... now I'm older and having absorbed so much of the negativity and skewed thinking exhibited on this board by the modern Disney fan, I am able to look back with the same critical eye. Epcot Center had many faults. None for me, but even at the time, I was the one dragging the rest of my five person family through there repeatedly. It killed me that we didn't go in '82 as my grandparents and several neighbors had. I still remember being a bit dismayed as none of them really raved about it. Everyone seemed impressed, but all preferred the Magic Kingdom (expect my grandfather who thought "The Land pavilion" was a full day park.) I had a copy of the preview book years before the park was opened and whenever I was in a store I would thumb through various magazines in hopes of finding any article about the new park (no internet.) I was glued to the tv opening day and watched the morning broadcasts and the evening special and flipped channels all day inbetween hoping for another news segment.

You don't have to believe me, but please do. Epcot Center was an obsession for me on par with Star Wars. When bored in school I would draw the map from memory and compare it to my many saved guidebooks once I got back home. I had every path memorized and could even do pavilion layouts (back when the maps included those.) It actually pains me to be so critical, but the original park has its admirers and champions and I suffer from a need to be contrarian, or at least a bit more objective.

I don't want to derail this thread which isn't even about Epcot. My response was to a blanket argument to a current lack of creativity, and I was offering up a counter point. One I still think is valid. At its core (and yes, reducing it down to the simplest argument as I said was being done in my original post) there was a certain sameness to the method in which each ride was presented. Was there variety, artistry, engineering feats, and high capacity- absolutely. Some semblance of thrill would have been a big help to round things out. "World of Motion" could have offered up more than slow motion (and yes, there were the multiple super-speed tunnels, but they were more an odd transition device.) Energy was inspiring, but as lethargic as a Brontosaurus (now Apatosaurus) stuck in the mire. Watch the end of Martin's latest (and wonderful and much appreciated) video. When the lights come up at the end, what do you see? I would have leaped out and gotten right back on or gone and checked out every exhibit in the Energy Exchange yet again. The rest of my party are the ones you see (1:01:23) stretching as if freed from a long lecture.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Watch the end of Martin's latest (and wonderful and much appreciated) video. When the lights come up at the end, what do you see? I would have leaped out and gotten right back on or gone and checked out every exhibit in the Energy Exchange yet again. The rest of my party are the ones you see (1:01:23) stretching as if freed from a long lecture.

Thank you.

But I really didn't want to use that shot. That group of people didn't want to be on the ride from the moment they loaded. They were a pain all the way around (I shot this). I'm sure they'd have preferred to be in the MK. But it was the only good shot I had of lights on with the apex screen and side reflections all in shot.

It pained me having to use it with their obvious "I'm bored" body language but I thought the story the shot told was worth it. I'm not even sure they understood the show. Without being stereotypical, English wasn't their first language as evidenced by all the talking I had to edit out.

I will admit looking back I can certainly see why some would think the original UoE was dry. There again god knows what they thought of SSE 82!
 
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The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
With the exception of Universe of Energy which gave us a slow moving theater through dioramas and films, every ride built for Epcot Center was either an omni-mover or boat slowly moving past dioramas and filmed segments. The themes were different, but the execution was blandly similar. Surely there were other ways to edutain us. I was sad to see recently that one of the early space pavilions included... a slow omni-mover through dioramas. Before Body Wars came to be, the plan was... a slow moving omnimover.

I hate trying to reduce things to such a simplistic form, but it seems the lens everything is currently viewed through. So can we say the omnimover was even more of a crutch than screenz are today?
I did think FW had one omnimover too many, between SSE, Imagination, WoM and Horizons. Rather, one too many omnimover + AA combo. Back home I had trouble to remember which scene belonged to WoM and which to SSE. (No internet and YouTube and 538264 free digital holiday photos)

What they should've done, I don't know. Not a thrill ride. A tonal misfit. Thrill rides ruin the rarified zen and aloofness of FW. FW in its heyday was a spiritual experience, drawing from its inspirational character and breathtaking unity of vision and execution. Thrill rides belong there as much as occasional loud heavy metal in a zen rock garden 'to add variety'. The wealth of different experiences and surroundings make the MK, the grand unity makes EPCOT.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Yes, in 1983, I was ten. It blew my little mind. I loved it. It was and remained my favorite park for its first decade. I would love to expound on its merits which are legion.

But... now I'm older and having absorbed so much of the negativity and skewed thinking exhibited on this board by the modern Disney fan, I am able to look back with the same critical eye. Epcot Center had many faults. None for me, but even at the time, I was the one dragging the rest of my five person family through there repeatedly. It killed me that we didn't go in '82 as my grandparents and several neighbors had. I still remember being a bit dismayed as none of them really raved about it. Everyone seemed impressed, but all preferred the Magic Kingdom (expect my grandfather who thought "The Land pavilion" was a full day park.) I had a copy of the preview book years before the park was opened and whenever I was in a store I would thumb through various magazines in hopes of finding any article about the new park (no internet.) I was glued to the tv opening day and watched the morning broadcasts and the evening special and flipped channels all day inbetween hoping for another news segment.

You don't have to believe me, but please do. Epcot Center was an obsession for me on par with Star Wars. When bored in school I would draw the map from memory and compare it to my many saved guidebooks once I got back home. I had every path memorized and could even do pavilion layouts (back when the maps included those.) It actually pains me to be so critical, but the original park has its admirers and champions and I suffer from a need to be contrarian, or at least a bit more objective.

I don't want to derail this thread which isn't even about Epcot. My response was to a blanket argument to a current lack of creativity, and I was offering up a counter point. One I still think is valid. At its core (and yes, reducing it down to the simplest argument as I said was being done in my original post) there was a certain sameness to the method in which each ride was presented. Was there variety, artistry, engineering feats, and high capacity- absolutely. Some semblance of thrill would have been a big help to round things out. "World of Motion" could have offered up more than slow motion (and yes, there were the multiple super-speed tunnels, but they were more an odd transition device.) Energy was inspiring, but as lethargic as a Brontosaurus (now Apatosaurus) stuck in the mire. Watch the end of Martin's latest (and wonderful and much appreciated) video. When the lights come up at the end, what do you see? I would have leaped out and gotten right back on or gone and checked out every exhibit in the Energy Exchange yet again. The rest of my party are the ones you see (1:01:23) stretching as if freed from a long lecture.

This is eloquently stated, but I don't think there's any need to reevaluate the way you felt at the time simply because Disney made bad decisions. Those feelings were valid, even if the thoughts behind them aren't as intellectually developed as they would be if you had them today. EPCOT was awe-inspiring, it was different, it was unique, and it was special. I have never met someone who prefers the modern version to the classic, and I think that goes to a truth deeper than nostalgia.

It's worth asking why AA-heavy dark rides are more satisfying then screens. I don't have an answer, of course. Perhaps it has to do with uniqueness - almost all of our entertainment - film, TV, internet - is screen based, so more screens lack a sense of escape and variety. It may have to do with scale - simply in terms of size, AA dark rides create a sense of scope missing in screen rides. Much of the academic work on Coney Island and other early amusement parks link the pleasure derived from them to industrialization, to becoming part of the machine, something screen rides lack. It may simply be an issue of artistry - the men and women who made EPCOT were masters, and that's reflected in the rides. Or, perhaps it has to do with a sense of depth - screens, 3D or not, can't escape a fundamental sense of flatness that isn't as appealing as the physical compositions of AA rides.

I think it's a good question.

But what happened to Epcot was the result of a lot of bad decisions made in reaction to misreadings of the public, corporate infighting, panic about outside forces, lack of vision - it had little to do with an artistic desire for ride diversity.
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
I don't think there's any need to reevaluate the way you felt at the time simply because Disney made bad decisions. Those feelings were valid, even if the thoughts behind them aren't as intellectually developed as they would be if you had them today.

The only part of Epcot Center I've reevaluated personally is the outside corporate aspect. Where the line between edutainment and infomercial was blurred, and the extent to which the imagineers had to adapt to an outsiders wishes. How "The Universe of Energy" somehow became "A Salute to All Energy Sources, but Mostly Fossil Fuels: Presented By Exxon."

Much else that I've posted over the years in criticism of Epcot stems more from those I experienced it with. My last trip with my parents was for my High School graduation and I have photos that I took of my father having fallen asleep on nearly every ride in FutureWorld. Later trips were always a mixed bag, due in part to the park aging poorly and in part to a few companions unwilling to embrace their inner child. Everyone would do everything once, but no one other than myself ever wanted to do anything at Epcot (especially the exhibits) a second time.
 
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