Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[BigTxEars]

Hmmm "free market" theoretical at best.

What? If there was ever a example of free market it's WDW. It's 100% a luxury item, if they did not offer a product people wanted they would not survive as they offer absoultly nothing than anybody needs. They survive on the whim of the public, the market would destroy them if they failed to satisfy the bulk of their guest with what they offer for the money spent.

 

[Beholder]

What? If there was ever a example of free market it's WDW. It's 100% a luxury item, if they did not offer a product people wanted they would not survive as they offer absoultly nothing than anybody needs. They survive on the whim of the public, the market would destroy them if they failed to satisfy the bulk of their guest with what they offer for the money spent.

This is a company that actually created something the public didn't know it wanted. They should still be doing that. I'm not stupid, I understand there is significant challenges facing WDW now, competition, ever changing technology, a more sensitive global market, but just giving people what they want, all the time, is not only pandering to the obvious, it leaves the innovation and unique storytelling that Disney built this empire with. At the very least, I think that there needs to be a balance between the real world realities of doing business and honoring the grand scheme that brought us here in the first place.

I'm not trying to argue, not at all, I appreciate your enthusiasm for WDW, I really do, it's just that I've seen what they were capable of doing, and I just wish it would get back to some of that early "magic" again.

 

[BigTxEars]

What EPCOT was intended to be is irrelevant once the park opened. As it was when it did open, it vastly different and (my opinion) vastly superior to Epcot. As to wether or not the free market determines what executive stays or goes is quite outside my point. From the standpoint that MOST people on these forums are generally more knowledgable and often times offer a more sincere passion for WDW, my point is that the decision to put Frozen in WS is wrong. Can they? Yes, of course. Will it be a hit? Absolutely. But the question, does it belong there, is 100% no.

It's boils down to wether or not you believe that this park, or any of the parks, deserve to have their integrity left in tact? Do these parks deserve to handled with greater care and with more attention to the legacy that they represent? I think they do. The legacy is MUCH bigger than any executive. It's bigger than any corporate vision.

I would say that much of what you posted is subjective to how people view the parks. What is a violation of their integrity and what is not? What is destructive to their legacy and what is not? No one is in position to make a final judgement on that for everyone. So either someone makes a judgement knowing they will anger some or there is no judgement and nothing gets accomplished. Thats the job of the folks in WDW who make these judgements. If they do a poor enough job and that results in issue with attendance then they risk losing that responsibility.

How would you suggest they make judgments regarding moves/changes at WDW if not in the way they are now?

"From the standpoint that MOST people on these forums are generally more knowledgable"

Not sure I follow, more knowledgable than who?

 

[SirLink]

What? If there was ever a example of free market it's WDW. It's 100% a luxury item, if they did not offer a product people wanted they would not survive as they offer absoultly nothing than anybody needs. They survive on the whim of the public, the market would destroy them if they failed to satisfy the bulk of their guest with what they offer for the money spent.

Your misusing the term "free market" by the nature one seller does not make the "free market". Likewise the free market does not concern itself with luxury or necessity goods/services because the free market only cares for the market price equilibrium. Therefore Demand would always equal Supply AKA you would always have a rube to replace the guest that cared about WDW whatever the price.

But this is College grade Economics haven't studied this stuff for like 10 years

 

[BigTxEars]

This is a company that actually created something the public didn't know it wanted. They should still be doing that. I'm not stupid, I understand there is significant challenges facing WDW now, competition, ever changing technology, a more sensitive global market, but just giving people what they want, all the time, is not only pandering to the obvious, it leaves the innovation and unique storytelling that Disney built this empire with. At the very least, I think that there needs to be a balance between the real world realities of doing business and honoring the grand scheme that brought us here in the first place.

I'm not trying to argue, not at all, I appreciate your enthusiasm for WDW, I really do, it's just that I've seen what they were capable of doing, and I just wish it would get back to some of that early "magic" again.

I guess that is where we differ, I see that magic at WDW in recent adds. NFL is wonderful, Enchanted Tales With Belle is pure Disney magic IMO for example. And innovation and unique story telling is a perfect description of that attraction IMO

I think 7DMT is a classic Disney ride, that is one we will be riding for decades to come.

I love the immersion that Magic Bands add to our trips as well.

Looking forward to the new DTD area, Avatarland (not a huge fan of the movie but I think the land has great potential), whatever we are seeing going on at DHS as well is exciting.

Those are just a few things that come to mind.

I also think Disney has done great job in not building extreme thrills rides like other parks are. There is a market for those rides (I like them but they mess me up!) but Disney has not built any and I am glad because I do not think they fit anywhere at WDW. For the record I think that carnival area at AK needs to go as well as it does not fit.

 

[Beholder]

I would say that much of what you posted is subjective to how people view the parks. What is a violation of their integrity and what is not? What is destructive to their legacy and what is not? No one is in position to make a final judgement on that for everyone. So either someone makes a judgement knowing they will anger some or there is no judgement and nothing gets accomplished. Thats the job of the folks in WDW who make these judgements. If they do a poor enough job and that results in issue with attendance then they risk losing that responsibility.

How would you suggest they make judgments regarding moves/changes at WDW if not in the way they are now?

"From the standpoint that MOST people on these forums are generally more knowledgable"

Not sure I follow, more knowledgable than who?

More knowledgable in the day to day goings on of WDW and all the WDW news. Other than those on these and other (less superior!) forums, I don't know too many people who keep up with so much minutia.

Doesn't the original design and intent of the park sort of determine what it's legacy will/should be? If what you're saying is actually how you see it, then why not turn all of WS into a "global MK"? Why stop there? Put The Black Hole and Wreck it Ralph in Animal Kingdom, put a animatronic ride through of a The Masters in SE. I mean, enough people call it the big golf ball, let's make it a big golf ball!

If no semblance of theme or adherence to the parks dedication is observed, then what's the point? What does Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow have to do with Frozen? Or Nemo or the Three Caballeros? And Vice versa?

Frozen is great, in fact I think it's so good that I believe it deserves it's own, dedicated and designed attraction in a place that sort of goes with the attractions around it, like The Seven Dwarfs, or near Animation Courtyard.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Your using the time tested and always weak debate method of taking things to imaginary extremes to try and prove a point. If WDW want to build Star Wars land in AK let me know, I judge things as individual cases.

Until then it's silly conjecture to try and compare the placement of a heavily Scandinavian influenced movie like Frozen in a Scandinavian country like Norway at WS and placing it in Animal Kingdom.

No, I intentionally used a ridiculous example to point out the weakness in your own logic; how can you fail to see that?

You keep saying "go back and read my posts"; perhaps you should go back and read the thousands of posts left by people against this decision and try to understand why we are against this decision. Because based on your posts, I honestly do not think you get it, nor do I think you've ever grasped the theme and vision of World Showcase during the time you've been visiting WDW, for however long that is.

I don't want this debate to step into argument territory, so I'm going to disembark the crazy train here. Have a nice day.

 

[Beholder]

I guess that is where we differ, I see that magic at WDW in recent adds. NFL is wonderful, Enchanted Tales With Belle is pure Disney magic IMO for example. And innovation and unique story telling is a perfect description of that attraction IMO

I think 7DMT is a classic Disney ride, that is one we will be riding for decades to come.

I love the immersion that Magic Bands add to our trips as well.

Looking forward to the new DTD area, Avatarland (not a huge fan of the movie but I think the land has great potential), whatever we are seeing going on at DHS as well is exciting.

Those are just a few things that come to mind.

I also think Disney has done great job in not building extreme thrills rides like other parks are. There is a market for those rides (I like them but they mess me up!) but Disney has not built any and I am glad because I do not think they fit anywhere at WDW. For the record I think that carnival area at AK needs to go as well as it does not fit.

I agree, no need for extreme thrill rides, let those who do that best keep doing them. A few more ToT or Space Mountains would be welcome. Also, like you, I didn't like Avatar, but, IF WDI is allowed to pull out the stops, then Pandora should be pretty amazing.

 

[BigTxEars]

Your misusing the term "free market" by the nature one seller does not make the "free market". Likewise the free market does not concern itself with luxury or necessity goods/services because the free market only cares for the market price equilibrium. Therefore Demand would always equal Supply AKA you would always have a rube to replace the guest that cared about WDW whatever the price.

But this is College grade Economics haven't studied this stuff for like 10 years

Maybe we are defining free market differently. In this context the market will support a luxury item like WDW only if it offers what enough of it's paying guest want. If folks stop going to WDW because they think that value of the parks is not worth the price to get in then bye bye WDW. In this example the free market resolved the issue of a under whelming theme park.

We saw this locally in Houston with Astroworld amusement park. The park did not offer what the guest wanted and it struggled to keep the gates open. It was sold for the land which was thought to be much much more valuable than it was in reality. It's a parking lot now.

 

[Mr Anderson]

More knowledgable in the day to day goings on of WDW and all the WDW news. Other than those on these and other (less superior!) forums, I don't know too many people who keep up with so much minutia.

Doesn't the original design and intent of the park sort of determine what it's legacy will/should be? If what you're saying is actually how you see it, then why not turn all of WS into a "global MK"? Why stop there? Put The Black Hole and Wreck it Ralph in Animal Kingdom, put a animatronic ride through of a The Masters in SE. I mean, enough people call it the big golf ball, let's make it a big golf ball!

If no semblance of theme or adherence to the parks dedication is observed, then what's the point? What does Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow have to do with Frozen? Or Nemo or the Three Caballeros? And Vice versa?

Frozen is great, in fact I think it's so good that I believe it deserves it's own, dedicated and designed attraction in a place that sort of goes with the attractions around it, like The Seven Dwarfs, or near Animation Courtyard.

Well said.

 

[victoria99999]

I didn't see the frozen attraction while it was running. I heard it was good. I'm disappointed that they decided to put it in the location of my favorite Epcot ride.

 

[RSoxNo1]

As much as I love that Citizen Kane meme (and far moreso the movie which I saw long before it was made into one), i must admit it's kind of ironic how it has come to be used given the context of the scene in the movie-
http://usvsth3m.com/post/60436953054/the-orson-welles-clapping-reaction-gif-is-everywhere

In this instance, I will take this opportunity to use the scene's proper context to describe people who applaud decisions such as Frozen at Norway. Those stubbornly and angrily clapping and singing praise because they've invested too much of their pride and emotion into something to admit the truth of the matter- who and what they're applauding just isn't any good (not anymore anyways).

There's a rather huge difference between including Mickey in a Fantasia short and gutting Maelstrom to replace it with Frozen. The story of the Sorcerer's Apprentice was kept intact and pretty faithfully represented and celebrated. Despite Mickey taking the place of the main character.

And even more glaring is the disparity of quality between the Frozen overlay and Fantasia. Fantasia and the Sorcerer's Apprentice were created with the maximum level of quality generally delivered during the Walt Disney era of animated feature films (it's considered by many as a classic and a true piece of art). Mickey himself was basically an actor in a story, familiar as a face yes but taking on a completely different role from what we were used to. That in itself was a rather novel and unique idea. And his role in the short was respectful of the story, his Mickey identity didn't detract from it.

Frozen at Norway is being created with the cheapest of budgets and the least amount of effort possible in order to cash in on a decent but massively overrated movie. A movie that despite my initial enjoyment of, is fast beginning to overstay its welcome.

Given what's come out about the DHS budget, the Frozen decision is all the more puzzling. I sincerely believe that the decision to put Frozen in Norway, while convenient has more to do with getting a wildly popular intellectual property in a park that needs a boost that isn't reliant on a seasonal event. That doesn't excuse the decision, but it helps explain it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

From the creative geniuses that brought you:

• Stitch's Great Escape
• Enchanted Tiki Room: Under New Management
• Journey into Imagination with Figment
• Monster's Inc Laugh Floor
  
• The Seas with Nemo and Friends
• Gran Fiesta Tour starring The Three Caballeros
• "Updated" Polynesian Village lobby
• Disco Yeti
  
• No more Toad, Horizons, or WoL
• and The Hat

...comes the next big step in rushed-through, low-quality, banking-on-the-brand-name overlays that destroy a WDW original with an attraction that targets the lowest common denominator: Frozen...in Norway...at EPCOT...! Because what better way to celebrate the history and culture of Norway than a fictional fairytale land based on a movie that came out 10 months ago!?! What better way to reward the fans of the real EPCOT than by once again taking something that we love and that we have paid big money to be able to see, turning it into a lame "kids" ride, and then telling us that we should continue paying big money to come see it, even though none of us wanted it in the first place!?!

The more I read, the more pumped I am to discontinue spending any money at WDW. They don't give me a product I want, so I'm not going to buy it anymore. Simple as that.

I maintain that the top 5 things on that list were Imagineering ideas that never originated with Imagineering.

 

[BigTxEars]

No, I intentionally used a ridiculous example to point out the weakness in your own logic; how can you fail to see that?

You keep saying "go back and read my posts"; perhaps you should go back and read the thousands of posts left by people against this decision and try to understand why we are against this decision. Because based on your posts, I honestly do not think you get it, nor do I think you've ever grasped the theme and vision of World Showcase during the time you've been visiting WDW, for however long that is.

I don't want this debate to step into argument territory, so I'm going to disembark the crazy train here. Have a nice day.

How does that point out the weakness of my logic? . Your using extreme conjecture in making your argument and my argument is the weak one? That makes no sense at all to me. I judge issues case by case, Frozen in Norway fits IMO, Frozen in AK does not.

The only people I am telling to read my post are those that keep asking me the same questions. What is wrong with that? If they want an answer they are free to read the numerous post I already responded in.

I get WS just fine, you just don't agree with my vision of it so you write it off as me not understanding WS.

 

[RSoxNo1]

There are a lot of things that could be done in Epcot that would draw more kids, that doesn't mean they should do them. I bet you would get a lot more kids in the Canada pavilion if you replaced Le Cellier with a Mc Donalds.

What I don't understand is what's wrong with World Showcase celebrating food from around the world? That makes it a profit center, all while being appealing to vacationers. World Showcase has never been particularly interesting to kids. They've inserted small, less invasive things, but in most cases they would rather experience rides.

Having said that, on my first trip to Epcot after Maelstrom opened, I was very excited to tell my class that I went backwards down a waterfall, I thought that was the coolest part of the entire vacation. It's not unreasonable to have culturally relevant rides that also get children excited.

 

[BigTxEars]

I agree, no need for extreme thrill rides, let those who do that best keep doing them. A few more ToT or Space Mountains would be welcome. Also, like you, I didn't like Avatar, but, IF WDI is allowed to pull out the stops, then Pandora should be pretty amazing.

I think ToT and SM are fine as well, in todays world they really are thrill rides to most people. Plus they don't make me sick

 

[BigTxEars]

More knowledgable in the day to day goings on of WDW and all the WDW news. Other than those on these and other (less superior!) forums, I don't know too many people who keep up with so much minutia.

Doesn't the original design and intent of the park sort of determine what it's legacy will/should be? If what you're saying is actually how you see it, then why not turn all of WS into a "global MK"? Why stop there? Put The Black Hole and Wreck it Ralph in Animal Kingdom, put a animatronic ride through of a The Masters in SE. I mean, enough people call it the big golf ball, let's make it a big golf ball!

If no semblance of theme or adherence to the parks dedication is observed, then what's the point? What does Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow have to do with Frozen? Or Nemo or the Three Caballeros? And Vice versa?

Frozen is great, in fact I think it's so good that I believe it deserves it's own, dedicated and designed attraction in a place that sort of goes with the attractions around it, like The Seven Dwarfs, or near Animation Courtyard.

I am on record of a big ole Frozen mountain ride the size of Splash Mountain, nut that is not join to happen.

I personally take a case by case look at each move to see if it fits. Frozen in Norway fits to me. Wreck I Ralph in AK does not for example.

Epcot has been changing for years an years if not decades, The first shots in that wars were fired years ago, and there is no going back now. I have said all along poor little Olaf is not going to shift any balance regarding that when he moves into Norway. The war for the future of Epcot is already over if having Disney characters running around Epcot and WS are deciding factors.

Plus I think I saw a white flag over the French pavillion already

 

[BigTxEars]

What I don't understand is what's wrong with World Showcase celebrating food from around the world? That makes it a profit center, all while being appealing to vacationers. World Showcase has never been particularly interesting to kids. They've inserted small, less invasive things, but in most cases they would rather experience rides.

Having said that, on my first trip to Epcot after Maelstrom opened, I was very excited to tell my class that I went backwards down a waterfall, I thought that was the coolest part of the entire vacation. It's not unreasonable to have culturally relevant rides that also get children excited.

More food = good! I am all for that. And drinks...just for the educational value of course.....

 

[BigTxEars]

Why does that matter? Walt sadly died, end of story. EPCOT Center was then built as envisioned by the Imagineers at the time based on Walt's idea and they did an amazing job. Now their vision for the park has been tarnished by years of bad decisions with the recent entertainment cuts and this Frozen refurd being the latest offenders. The fact Walt wasn't involved with the creation of the theme park many fans grew to love is completely and utterly irrelevant to how it should move forward. The Imagineers who were involved with designing it deserve to have their vision continued, not thrown away for the sake of greed and cheapness.

Some on here are portraying a Epcot that is being pillaged and chaged from it's original vision, my point is that is has been from day 1. Nothing new here to see. It is evolving now just like it has for it's entire life. Frozen and Nemo are just part to that evolution.

 

[wm49rs]

Yes, pillaged. Pillaged of parades, trolley cars, entertainment, rides, and pavilions. All of which were there on Opening Day and for many years after. So no, EP was not pillaged from Day One, only well afterwards....